what do you think? 996 turbo vs FD
02-20-07, 09:19 AM
#76
Rotary Enthusiast
Originally Posted by FDNewbie
I feel EXACTLY like Rich. I plan on buying a 911 some day (prob GT2), but it'll be for daily driving, NOT racing. I wouldn't take *anything* over my FD. In fact, I sold my R-34 to finish up my FD. Now THAT'S dedication to the 7...
Or is it dedication to your business? So you would not take anything over your FD to race or to drive? I cannot believe you sold the R-34 for the FD.
I am impressed by the dedication level, but I just cannot agree that the platform is nearly the same....I have been surrounded by porsches that were built to race for many years, from the old birds, to the new, and I LOVE my fd, but porsches, especially the GT series cars, are badass. I would like to set up a track run between a local 7 to pocono and a GT3 RS. The 7 can be modified as you like. This is not the kills section or the lounge, I have access to these cars, I will not be driving, but I really would like to see a comparison.
02-20-07, 09:21 AM
#77
Originally Posted by ptrhahn
Not to take anything away from their succss, but Porsches rule in international GT racing has to do with alot more than the platform superiority of any of their particular models.
Among them are the Marque's committment to racing that has established it as THE standard customer GT racing car through the years. Other manufacturers are in and out, Porsche is always there, and always there with a consistent model (911) for which there are tons of development parts, tons of teams running them, tons of info, etc.
If I were a privateer GT racer, i'd definately buy a Porsche, because I know I can count on them to always be in it, always give me support, and always provide something that is an evolution of what I already have for continuities sake. The GT3 Cup turnkey racecar is practically a production model... as was the 962 in the IMSA days (imagine a prototype that starts with a key)... No other manufacturer has a serious and consistent customer racecar program other than Ferrari, and even that is far less consistent.
Winning in GT racing also takes a good lobby, and nobody is going to shaft a manufacturer like Porsche in the "equalization" rules, because they know that P-car fans and the Porsche club are major fan constituencies that they don't want to **** off.
Then there's MONEY.
FD's never won much in GT racing... but who was ever racing them? I saw Peter Farrel's operation at it's height, and it was a small operation at best compared to even some of the private operations I see show up at Vintage and Porsche club events. The last time I did a track event, some guy rolled up in a full-on 18-wheeler top of the line rig and rolled out his GT3 Cup... just to run the track... he wan't a pro race team, he was just some rich guy... with a full rig and a crew member!!
Among them are the Marque's committment to racing that has established it as THE standard customer GT racing car through the years. Other manufacturers are in and out, Porsche is always there, and always there with a consistent model (911) for which there are tons of development parts, tons of teams running them, tons of info, etc.
If I were a privateer GT racer, i'd definately buy a Porsche, because I know I can count on them to always be in it, always give me support, and always provide something that is an evolution of what I already have for continuities sake. The GT3 Cup turnkey racecar is practically a production model... as was the 962 in the IMSA days (imagine a prototype that starts with a key)... No other manufacturer has a serious and consistent customer racecar program other than Ferrari, and even that is far less consistent.
Winning in GT racing also takes a good lobby, and nobody is going to shaft a manufacturer like Porsche in the "equalization" rules, because they know that P-car fans and the Porsche club are major fan constituencies that they don't want to **** off.
Then there's MONEY.
FD's never won much in GT racing... but who was ever racing them? I saw Peter Farrel's operation at it's height, and it was a small operation at best compared to even some of the private operations I see show up at Vintage and Porsche club events. The last time I did a track event, some guy rolled up in a full-on 18-wheeler top of the line rig and rolled out his GT3 Cup... just to run the track... he wan't a pro race team, he was just some rich guy... with a full rig and a crew member!!
As far as shafting Porsches with equalization rules, you need to watch some of the FIA GT racing events. Porsche got their ***** handed to them last season with Ferrari's new 430. There was no equally there, just **** whooping. However, the Porsches were still running the older 996 platforms so it will be interesting to see what happens this year with the 997 platforms. But that is a different topic for a different section.
02-20-07, 09:32 AM
#79
Original Gangster/Rotary!
iTrader: (213)
This is shaping up into an interesting thread. I'd put my FD up against a GT3 on a road race course, given spec tires and the same driver. Who knows, it's all speculation anyway 
02-20-07, 09:34 AM
#80
Rotary Enthusiast
Rich, I think you are local enough. We can create a road course rather then go to pocono. What do you think, can we get this done? Question really is, would you let your car be driven by another driver?
02-20-07, 09:39 AM
#81
Originally Posted by GoodfellaFD3S
This is shaping up into an interesting thread. I'd put my FD up against a GT3 on a road race course, given spec tires and the same driver. Who knows, it's all speculation anyway
The FD is a car for people who like to tinker. Not everyone likes to tinker so some people pay more for a car they don't have to tinker with... I'm not saying those cars don't have problems, but they do have technicians/mechanics who can actually fix them without sending the car all across the US.
02-20-07, 09:40 AM
#82
Original Gangster/Rotary!
iTrader: (213)
Originally Posted by mirabile
Rich, I think you are local enough. We can create a road course rather then go to pocono. What do you think, can we get this done? Question really is, would you let your car be driven by another driver?
02-20-07, 09:40 AM
#83
Oh, of course it does... and the Porsche buyer pays for that spillover.
OVERALL, the Porsche is better product.... in overall execution, quality, etc. What the FD represents, and what it was developed to do, was offer similar world-class engineering in the platform (though more inspired by Lotus designs than Porsche), at a lesser price. When you mod it, you're basically making up that cost differential and getting rid of all the plastic ancilaries, repainting it with better paint, adding the race seats, etc.
I'll maintain that the basic FD platform is on par w/ a 996. You add in all of the high-dollar ancilary stuff that Porsches come with, it'll perform with it no problem. It still won't have Porsche fit and finish, paint, leather, etc, unless you add that stuff too, nor will it have a great owners club, and tons of great professional tuner shops...
This is different than the Honda Civic example, which has ELEMENTAL flaws and shortcomings that you would have to overcome to make it quicker, i.e: McPherson struts, FWD, etc.
OVERALL, the Porsche is better product.... in overall execution, quality, etc. What the FD represents, and what it was developed to do, was offer similar world-class engineering in the platform (though more inspired by Lotus designs than Porsche), at a lesser price. When you mod it, you're basically making up that cost differential and getting rid of all the plastic ancilaries, repainting it with better paint, adding the race seats, etc.
I'll maintain that the basic FD platform is on par w/ a 996. You add in all of the high-dollar ancilary stuff that Porsches come with, it'll perform with it no problem. It still won't have Porsche fit and finish, paint, leather, etc, unless you add that stuff too, nor will it have a great owners club, and tons of great professional tuner shops...
This is different than the Honda Civic example, which has ELEMENTAL flaws and shortcomings that you would have to overcome to make it quicker, i.e: McPherson struts, FWD, etc.
Originally Posted by Mahjik
And don't you think all that dedication to professional racing spills over to their consumer products (just like what has happened with Corvette)? Absolutely it has. Their commitment to racing in turn brings a better product to the consumer.
As far as shafting Porsches with equalization rules, you need to watch some of the FIA GT racing events. Porsche got their ***** handed to them last season with Ferrari's new 430. There was no equally there, just **** whooping. However, the Porsches were still running the older 996 platforms so it will be interesting to see what happens this year with the 997 platforms. But that is a different topic for a different section.
As far as shafting Porsches with equalization rules, you need to watch some of the FIA GT racing events. Porsche got their ***** handed to them last season with Ferrari's new 430. There was no equally there, just **** whooping. However, the Porsches were still running the older 996 platforms so it will be interesting to see what happens this year with the 997 platforms. But that is a different topic for a different section.
02-20-07, 09:45 AM
#84
Originally Posted by ptrhahn
This is different than the Honda Civic example, which has ELEMENTAL flaws and shortcomings that you would have to overcome to make it quicker, i.e: McPherson struts, FWD, etc.
It doesn't matter. The sheer fact is most FD owners put themselves up on a pedestal that they don't belong just because "they own a FD". That's stupid. You hear crap on this forum like "the FD is the greatest sports car ever", "the 7 can't loose", "my car can beat that car". Then when a SRT Neon or something whips up on one they say "yea but its still a Neon".
This forum is full of the "pot calling the kettle black" people all over the place. They call themselves automotive enthusiast but they are far from it when they limit everything they know or care about to the FD.
02-20-07, 09:48 AM
#85
Rotary Enthusiast
Mahjik, I am also familiar with the F430, which I also have access too. The spyder, not the coupe though, which is slightly heavier. It is also an amazing machine, that I may be able to get to race Rich's car with. hehe. The problem is, as you climb this ladder, you continue to run into more and more issues for the FD to overcome to compete with these cars. To the civic comment - 1/4 mile is different then what we are talking about, all around race, is by no means a nitrous induced civic. Remember, many of the guys with porsches like to tinker as well, it just costs more.
02-20-07, 09:51 AM
#86
Originally Posted by mirabile
Mahjik, I am also familiar with the F430, which I also have access too. The spyder, not the coupe though, which is slightly heavier. It is also an amazing machine, that I may be able to get to race Rich's car with. hehe. The problem is, as you climb this ladder, you continue to run into more and more issues for the FD to overcome to compete with these cars. To the civic comment - 1/4 mile is different then what we are talking about, all around race, is by no means a nitrous induced civic. Remember, many of the guys with porsches like to tinker as well, it just costs more.
It doesn't really matter what you are talking about, they'll find excuses for it when they don't win; or start bringing up a cost issue. They can't look at cars for what they are, they have their blinders on only seeing the FD and thats the simple truth.
02-20-07, 10:14 AM
#88
Look guys, I don't think "the 7 can't lose", I've got too many friends with cars that'll smoke mine while they relax in A/C and bring two friends along. I can tell the fifference between sitting in my car and an AMG Mercedes.
However, the pedestal i WILL put the car on, is that it IS one of the greatest track cars ever built, particularly for the money. If it had been built by Lotus, Porsche, or Ferrari and cost 4 times as much and come with a few better-quality ancilaries like a better IC and nicer leather and paint, the enthusiast world be making themselves sick talking about how great it is.
Every time I go to the track, and run with the Z06's, Ferrari's, and Porsches, I'm reminded and even surprised by it. That's something that an MR2, a Civic, or Supra doesn't have and won't ever have no matter how nice a set of shocks or tires you bolt on it.
However, the pedestal i WILL put the car on, is that it IS one of the greatest track cars ever built, particularly for the money. If it had been built by Lotus, Porsche, or Ferrari and cost 4 times as much and come with a few better-quality ancilaries like a better IC and nicer leather and paint, the enthusiast world be making themselves sick talking about how great it is.
Every time I go to the track, and run with the Z06's, Ferrari's, and Porsches, I'm reminded and even surprised by it. That's something that an MR2, a Civic, or Supra doesn't have and won't ever have no matter how nice a set of shocks or tires you bolt on it.
02-20-07, 11:07 AM
#89
Originally Posted by ptrhahn
Every time I go to the track, and run with the Z06's, Ferrari's, and Porsches, I'm reminded and even surprised by it. That's something that an MR2, a Civic, or Supra doesn't have and won't ever have no matter how nice a set of shocks or tires you bolt on it.
02-20-07, 11:11 AM
#90
Potato Love
Originally Posted by Mahjik
A Civic, I'll give you that one. The Supra's have proven themselves quite well in the JGTC over the years battling and leading in the GT500 class. Disspite what others believe on this forum, the Supra is quite capable at being a standout road car. However, in the USA, Supra owners are not track junkies.
02-20-07, 12:32 PM
#91
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Ptrhahn, I think we're veering a bit off-topic. I have as much FD pride as the next person...heck, I've spent enough on it to get a GT3 and have change. But the OP asked if a mildly modded FD (around 350rwhp) can beat a 996TT. I still feel that answer is no unless the 996TT guy can't drive. It may not blow the FD away but losing by 0.1 or 1.0 sec is still a loss.
I haven't driven a 911 so I must say I shouldn't be commenting. Mebbe Omochi can offer his viewpoint as his car is close to the mildly modded criteria and he's driven a 996TT.
I haven't driven a 911 so I must say I shouldn't be commenting. Mebbe Omochi can offer his viewpoint as his car is close to the mildly modded criteria and he's driven a 996TT.
02-20-07, 01:12 PM
#92
Hedge, here's what I know:
Two friends of mine and I went out to a remote road the summer before last, one guy with a modded Audi S4, and one with a nice 996 TT with the X50 turbo upgrade.... from rolling starts in 1st gear (going just fast enough to have the clutch engaged), I beat them both in repeated runs to about 100-120... that was before my latest tuning, so that's about 345-350 rwhp on '99 twins and a mild street port (Ray at PFS eventually found me 365 @ 15 psi last spring).
Two friends of mine and I went out to a remote road the summer before last, one guy with a modded Audi S4, and one with a nice 996 TT with the X50 turbo upgrade.... from rolling starts in 1st gear (going just fast enough to have the clutch engaged), I beat them both in repeated runs to about 100-120... that was before my latest tuning, so that's about 345-350 rwhp on '99 twins and a mild street port (Ray at PFS eventually found me 365 @ 15 psi last spring).
Originally Posted by HedgeHog
Ptrhahn, I think we're veering a bit off-topic. I have as much FD pride as the next person...heck, I've spent enough on it to get a GT3 and have change. But the OP asked if a mildly modded FD (around 350rwhp) can beat a 996TT. I still feel that answer is no unless the 996TT guy can't drive. It may not blow the FD away but losing by 0.1 or 1.0 sec is still a loss.
I haven't driven a 911 so I must say I shouldn't be commenting. Mebbe Omochi can offer his viewpoint as his car is close to the mildly modded criteria and he's driven a 996TT.
I haven't driven a 911 so I must say I shouldn't be commenting. Mebbe Omochi can offer his viewpoint as his car is close to the mildly modded criteria and he's driven a 996TT.
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