ZeroBanger

The answer is no. Lets start with the PUMP, its 60 PSI, that pressure is required to push the water fast enough to turn into a MIST.

The washer fluid nozzels are not threaded and not made of brass, and furthermore are not mesh screen like these very nice nozzels (only $3.00). You can use your stock water tank, but its what 2 QTS at most? Mine is 3 gallons.

Sray your windshield washer and look at it, its not a fine mist its a stream. You need the mist so it will evaporate.

How are you going to get it to turn on? when you boost are you gonna just spray your windshield? To save $50.00 ? I think the $150-$175 to make my setup is pretty damn good.

DaedelGT

Nice, nice, nice setup. Howabout a parts list?

ZeroBanger

you should see it in person, Its really sweet and SO freakin' clean! Im planning on writing a web-page that shows in detail how to do this system for the FD. I'll get the parts together in the next few days with prices to total it up.

david.

DaedelGT

Sweet.

bros0000

The FD write-up sounds like a great idea, just make sure you reference the original source on your page.

Oh yeah, and for reference, the windshield washer container holds 9 cups (2.25 qts).

ZeroBanger

Its no secret that I used TurboMirage as my inspiration. I'm not pretending that I made the concept up.

What I did differently from Turbo Mirage.

1) wiring diagram. While it started its life exactly the same, I realized that the original was flawed.

2) Led Indicators. These are built in safety devices that I added.

3) Mounting of the pump and water bottle. This is specific to the FD. Because of that the brass fittings are different from what turbo Mirage uses.

What it shares:

The Nozzel is the same 6.32 GPH from Mcmaster carr, the selenoid is the same, the pump is the same and the pressure switch is the same.

I'll put a reference link to that page along with my new wiring diagrams and water house routing. working on that as we speak.

Wade

iTrader: (1)

How do you make sure you get the right amount of water? You will need a different volume of water at 8000 RPM than you would at 4000 RPM if you want a fixed ratio, like 10% water to fuel.

Also, do you know exactly how much pressure your pump is pushing (from actually measuring it while driving)? That is necessary to compute the nozzle size needed to hit your desired water:fuel ratio.

Although this is a nice economical solution which I often think about trying myself, I always talk myself out of it because there are too many compromises. The large one being the fact that the best I could "tune" the water for would be ideal at 5000 RPM, far too much water at 3000 RPM, and not enough water at 8000 RPM.

Wade

Marshall

Wade, I was hesitant for the same reasons, but I went ahead and installed this kit. Basically, I logged my injector duty cycles under high boost (15-17 psi for me) to find out how much fuel was going into the engine over the 4000-8000 rpm range. It turned out that I was able to select a nozzle that, even though fixed in flow, gave me ~15% water/fuel when boost came on and tapered down to ~9% at high rpm. I tapped a pressure guage in the WI line so I could find the nozzle flow. They say 10-20% water/fuel is ideal for most engines so I was ok with my results. I think for a street car looking for a better safety barrier and maybe a couple more pounds of safe boost, this kit is hard to beat. YMMV

Cihuuy

hmmm... this is a very, very brilliant mod!! Glad you are willing to share this great thread wiv us, TQ...

i just have a couple of question:
1. I was thinking the same thing when you put a fuel filter in there, to prevent any other things to be injected to your engine. So does a fuel filter really filter the water??

2. What kind of water did you use??

3. We know the pros of this setup, but what is the cons in the long run??

Tanx

ZeroBanger

The pump runs at 40 or 60 psi at 1.4 GPM or 1.8 GPM, depending on what you set. The nozzel I got is small and rated at 6.32 GPH. When the water comes on at 8 psi, the car feels very smooth and strong. If I had too much water the car would buck and the ignition would break up. none of that happens. Its just smooth delivery of power. If the car works fine at 3K RPM, how can it be bad at 8K RPM? I'm still in the beginning stages but I like what I See. Im not tuning for my water, so its good to keep it from detonating.


The Fuel filter I just added yesterday. its a 3/8 filter that has a glass tube panel with the filter inside. I think of it like this, when I add water to the tank, it will filter anything thats in the tank out. For example I cut the 3/8 hose and shaped it in the thank. I must have had a small piece of hose that was not completely cut off that eventually ended up in the water. That would have ended up clogging the injector at some point. Its just to keep contaminates out.

just use distilled water.

I dont know of any cons of the system. Let me share with you some experience. I found that although my system was wired properly, the other day I was driving and my car must have hit a bump, causing my pressure switch to hit some metal on my hood. This caused my system to run all the time regardless of boost or not. I noticed the green light was on and looked at my Air temps that were 15C in 100F weather. I immediatedly turned the WI off with the switch and within 1 minute, maybe 2 minutes my temps were up to 46C. If I did not have that green light to warn me the system was running, my engine would have hydrolocked eventually. So you DO have to be careful.

I dont think the system sprays that much water, when you under boost and the water is so fine, im sure it evaporates pretty instant.

The biggest cons of the system now that I think about it are the following:

1) if you tune for water injection (use it to run more boost than your IC/setup can support) if your system fails for any reason (clogged nozzel, WP, Fuse, run out of water, etc) you will detonate. I am tuned for my Intercooler use the WI as insurance.

2) The nozzel attaches under the elow and screws into a 90 degree brass fitting on the outside of the elbow. If the nozzel becomes loose and falls into the Elbow you will blow your engine. Thats why that part professionaly done. The rest I installed myself.

3) You can have a very clean setup like mine or you can have a very getto setup. It has to be done right to look good. The only sign that I have water injection is the tapped Elbow.

4) as someone pointed out, it sprays the same rate regardless of boost or RPM. So if you set it for 8 lbs boost, it sprays the same as at 12 lbs, etc. you CAN get a RPM switch that turns the system on only when the rpm is above a certain amount (such as 4000). I have found that my intake temps stay very stable in city driving by having it just come on at 8 PSI at any RPM, so I think I will keep it like this.

5) I dont know how this will effect emissions. I would guess that if you put denatured acohol in the tank you may get better emissions results (just a guess) But I dont know if the setup is emissions legal and can pass the visual. maybe yes, maybe no.

6) you have more hoses in your engine bay. overtime they can crack.

Thats all I know of. im sure there are more.

ZeroBanger

Here is a rough sketch of the tank, water hoses, water pump, filter and nozzel injector. I am will get the electrical one in the next few days. Will update the thread as I get them.

duboisr

Garfinkles turbo charged motor cycle has a presureized water tank with a valve that opens under pressure , 8 lbs . As the pressure goes up the amount of water goes up. this will solve the problem of having the same amount of water at all rpm , boost ranges . Question,, with your set up as the boost goes up the pressure on the nozzel will make the water spray less volume , when you need more. Is that correct , as fuel injectors do under boost .

ZeroBanger

no, this setup sprays the exact same amount of water at all times.

duboisr

I understand that the same amount is sprayed. At high boost the pressure on the nozzle may restrict the amount of water compaired to low boost . This is the case with fuel injectors .The valve that my mechanic uses on the turbo bike may improve your already great set up . Just think about it. low boost low volume of water, higher boost more water .

ZeroBanger

do you have a pic or link to this nozzel? where can I read about it, thanks. Who sells it?

duboisr

Your nozzle should work fine . I think I typed that the valve he uses flows more as the boost goes up . If you made a variable valve then your system would be even better . I will ask gar about the valve . I think it is like a ball and spring valve for water . He was a Mr Turbo dealer at one time, and the valve came from there ( I think ) Mr Turbo was a motorcycle turbo kit company .

JOES95RX7

This is from aquamist.co.uk website. They are very reputable company. this will help answer your questions.


THE CONCEPT of injecting water into the internal combustion engine has been around for over 50 years. But the desire to extract more power from the standard production engine has increased at a neck-breaking speed. ERL has just revived this old principle, applying the latest techniques in both electronic and mechanical engineering to take water injection into the next millennium.
WATER? Water exists mainly in a liquid state because that is its most stable inter-molecular structure. When we apply heat energy to it, its molecules begin to expand: a great deal of heat is absorbed during this process owing to water's specific heat capacity - approximately 4.2kJ/(kg.K). When the water changes from the liquid to gas state, large amount of heat energy is consumed in sustaining the process. The latent heat of evaporation is 2256kJ/kg, approximately six times more than gasoline!
SO WHAT? Because of its huge specific- and latent- heat capacity, water is the perfect liquid for regulating excess heat under certain engine-operating conditions, for example induction charge air cooling; but its biggest contribution is inside the combustion chamber where, under excessive loading, pre-ignition and detonation can otherwise occur. Such abnormal combustion is particularly common in force induction engines, where exhaust temperature can exceed 1100°C!
WHAT CHANCE has a piston got under these conditions, given that aluminium melts at 660°C? 99% of production cars keep exhaust temperature below 850°C by fuel-dumping, and hold crown temperature below 550°C by conduction to the underside and skirt of the piston, which is constantly being quenched by engine oil. Most of the heat is transferred to the cylinder wall. Simple and wonderful solutions, but ...
TURBO-CARS are easily upgraded just by adjusting the boost pressure and adding a commercially-available pre-programmed chip; but the hidden drawback of this solution is that even more fuel is being dumped -- as a coolant! -- to compensate for standard engine-cooling arrangements (inside the engine bay your fast-road car has more-or-less the same radiators and cooling fans as the family car next door). But as you upgrade your power-upgrade, you will get to the point where the fuel becomes so rich, and the flame is burning so slowly, that power is being lost rather than gained.
WORSE STILL your piston is no longer being lubricated properly: bore-wash is taking its toll of the pistons. You might decide to combat this with a very special synthetic oil, developed from years of research, which helped some car to win a few championships last season. Your favourite racing-driver recommends it on TV, so of course you want to believe him. But have you ever wondered why he has to get his engine rebuilt after every race?

Wade

iTrader: (1)

Water volume would go up with more boost but it doesn't solve the problem of having the same water at all RPM. If the car is boosting 10 psi at 4000 RPM or 10 psi at 8000 RPM it will require very different levels of fuel and water... but your proposed solution will delivery the SAME amount of water.

Also, your proposal would have to be plumbed before the turbo compressor as the turbo boost can't force water to atomize against it's own turbo pressure.

Wade

ZeroBanger

Wade,

As long as you dont have too big of a nozzel, it should be ok. I dont see any issues with my system yet. I would think that if I got too much water the sytem would stumble, it doesnt do that. Sure, it puts the same amount of water, regardless of the boost...but if it works at 3000 RPM @ 8 lbs boost, it will work at redline @ 12 lbs.

I dont know what my percentage is, but aquamist says from 15-25 pct is fine. I would guess im on the high end of that scale at the low RPM, but so far its not been an issue. I think the problem is for those that decide to use a large nozzel (mine is 6.32 GPH).

It would be more efficient to have a 12-15 pct water to fuel all through the boost/rpm band, but not easily achieved. If I ever find it to be an issue I'll install a MSD RPM Activated Switch.

opinions?

Cihuuy

Zero: thanx for replying my post...

I got a bit shock to hear you mention about the possible loose nozle... but i guess your right to install this by professionals... and should not be taken lightly.

Anyhow... im still not certain on how this system works. Does it spray continously at more than 8 lbs boost? or does it spray manualy?? (sori if i miss the info)

The MSD rpm switch should improve the efficiency of the setup. Just imagine that it will spray a small amount during low rpm/boost, but will increase as rpm/boost rises. This will be a superb setup!! but dont know how fool proof it is!?!

Keep us updated Zero...

-D-

ZeroBanger

the nozzel sprays at a rate of 6.32 Gallons per hour. When I hit 8 PSI (thats my setting, I can change it), It will turn on and stay at the exact rate of 6.32 GPH until I drop below 8. Once I go below 8 it turns off. So 8 PSI, 14 PSI=same amount of water.

The RPM switch will not activate the nozzel to spray less or more water, the only point would be to set an RPM point to turn the system on. For example, I hit 8 lbs of boost easily by 2400 RPM in 5th gear. I may not want the system to come on at all until lets say...4000. So if I get an rpm switch set for 4,000 RPM, the system will remain off until I hit atleast 8 lbs of boost and the RPM is atleast 4,000 RPM.

Also, I dont have a manual switch to turn it on, but I have one to turn it off. Hope that helps!!

93blackrx

to solve the debate of the water/fuel ratio having to be a constant "fixed" ratio couldn't you retro fit a Raising Rate Fuel Pressure Regulator to the line?

I think this is a great idea to do....When I install my system I'll put a water pressure gauge and water level gauge to keep an eye on things. A parts list would be great to keep me interested, can't wait for the website to be completed!!!!

Keep up the awsome thread!!!!

bros0000

If you have the need for functionality like this you are probably better off with an electronically controlled AquaMist kit... The TurboMirage DIY is really just an on-off switch and is meant for someone who wants a cheap setup, for a little added "reliability" in the form of increased detonation resistance. If you were looking for something to allow you to tune in higher boost, I'd go with something a little higher quality (ie AquaMist) myself.

FIY for those road racers out there looking at this, I set mine up for track use, and I run through about 3/4 of the windshield washer tank per 20 minute session using a 1.9 gph nozzle.

ZeroBanger

The aquamist systems are way more sophisticated and are able to do some really cool things. As mentioned you can tune it based on your Injector duty setting ..how much fuel flow, etc. It can tell if the injectors are clogged. There is no question that the Aquamist system is better in that regard. Its very expensive to buy and very expensive to have installed.

The advantage of this set up is that its cheap (as mentioned before), easy to install and offers all the advantages of water injection. For me there is no point to go the aquamist route. If you can afford it or are good enough to install aquamist, its worth it.

Marshall

1.9 gph??? What pressure is that at and what pressure do you operate it at? Thats hardly any water. My suggestion is to log injector duty cycles and see how much variation in water you will need to maintain a proper ratio. Having a single made it easy for me. Also, you would want most protection at peak torque and then to taper it off in the high rpm -exactly what the "on/off" type does for me. YMMV.