pics of my water injection set up!!
07-15-03, 08:25 PM
#51
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Buckhead
Posts: 3,323
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok, I think this is complete, I got dizzy for some reason when doing this.
this is electric and full install diagram. I decided to hook evrythign up to the stereo harness to make it more clean. You can have it come from the battery, but then you have a wire in your engine bay, kinda out of place.
this is electric and full install diagram. I decided to hook evrythign up to the stereo harness to make it more clean. You can have it come from the battery, but then you have a wire in your engine bay, kinda out of place.
07-16-03, 01:44 AM
#52
Originally posted by duboisr
I understand that the same amount is sprayed. At high boost the pressure on the nozzle may restrict the amount of water compaired to low boost . This is the case with fuel injectors .The valve that my mechanic uses on the turbo bike may improve your already great set up . Just think about it. low boost low volume of water, higher boost more water .
I understand that the same amount is sprayed. At high boost the pressure on the nozzle may restrict the amount of water compaired to low boost . This is the case with fuel injectors .The valve that my mechanic uses on the turbo bike may improve your already great set up . Just think about it. low boost low volume of water, higher boost more water .
Or since you are in the expermenting stages, you could add a secondary WI nozzle. Just like the secondary injectors for the fuel system. This way you could run 2 WI nozzles at half the capacity of the one larger one. You could have the first nozzle setup to run at 8 psi and with an additional solenoid & pressure switch run the second nozzle at a higher boost. Overall, you would still have the same WI capacity of your one large one but, you would use half the water during normal driving (low boost situations). Also this way, the system could be left on all the time.
One last thing, is the pump always on? Is it noisy when running?
07-16-03, 07:17 AM
#53
Rotary Enthusiast
Join Date: May 2002
Location: San Diego
Posts: 971
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Your setup definately looks nice for you application, I especially LOVE the idea of using that oil container in the spare tire location as a tank! The only thing I think you might have done differently is installed the spray nozzle in the IC's "cooled air" end tank or just closer to the IC so it has a longer distance to travel and more time to cool down the air thereby increasing it's density before it enters the combustion area. This would not only take away the effects of the heat produced in compressing the air under turbocharging, but make it possible to run COLDER and denser air than an N/A engine! And the colder the better!
As for my application, I'll eventually be running mapped flow rate controlled WI at about a maximum of 22psi on race gas. As such, I'll be pushing the borders of detonation and using more of the water's latent energy control this in the combustion area, rather than using it to gain maximum density of incoming air in the air tract. The location that zerobanger has the water injector installed is perfect for my application. Normally excess fuel (fuel dumping) is used to cool things down in the combustion process, but since water has 7x the latent enery of gas, it can do the job much easier and allow you to keep your air/fuel ratio lean resulting in a quicker cleaner burn. So in my application, installing the injector farther away from the charge air path reserves it's latent energy for the more important task of absorbing the maximum amount of heat in the combustion area, controlling detonation. Since I'll be using a very large V-mount IC system, the compromise won't be too great.
AS for zerobanger's application, however (or those who are considering this with relatively low risk of detonation), you'd be better off using the majority of waters latent energy to bring down intake temps an acheiving the highest air density, resulting in more power. Taking all this into consideration, one last thing you might be considering is "Why not place the injector at the hot endtank of the IC or even well before it to increase the cooling effects on the air???" There's three reasons for that. A: If the water is cooled before or as it travels through the IC, the IC becomes less efficiant. It's better off to let the IC bleed off as much heat as possible, and THEN let the water do it's thing. (Having an additional jet spraying on the outside of IC however would greatly increase the intercooler's efficiancy) B: Since the water's closer to the engine when injected at the cool side of the IC, it can still be used as a cooling agent in the combustion process to prevent detonation, just to a less degree than my setup. C: If the water enters the air tract to close to the turbo, the turbo could possibly vaporize and take up valuable volume intended for charge air.
One last thing I was wondering...where exactly is the intake air temperature sensor located that you're getting your readings from???
As for my application, I'll eventually be running mapped flow rate controlled WI at about a maximum of 22psi on race gas. As such, I'll be pushing the borders of detonation and using more of the water's latent energy control this in the combustion area, rather than using it to gain maximum density of incoming air in the air tract. The location that zerobanger has the water injector installed is perfect for my application. Normally excess fuel (fuel dumping) is used to cool things down in the combustion process, but since water has 7x the latent enery of gas, it can do the job much easier and allow you to keep your air/fuel ratio lean resulting in a quicker cleaner burn. So in my application, installing the injector farther away from the charge air path reserves it's latent energy for the more important task of absorbing the maximum amount of heat in the combustion area, controlling detonation. Since I'll be using a very large V-mount IC system, the compromise won't be too great.
AS for zerobanger's application, however (or those who are considering this with relatively low risk of detonation), you'd be better off using the majority of waters latent energy to bring down intake temps an acheiving the highest air density, resulting in more power. Taking all this into consideration, one last thing you might be considering is "Why not place the injector at the hot endtank of the IC or even well before it to increase the cooling effects on the air???" There's three reasons for that. A: If the water is cooled before or as it travels through the IC, the IC becomes less efficiant. It's better off to let the IC bleed off as much heat as possible, and THEN let the water do it's thing. (Having an additional jet spraying on the outside of IC however would greatly increase the intercooler's efficiancy) B: Since the water's closer to the engine when injected at the cool side of the IC, it can still be used as a cooling agent in the combustion process to prevent detonation, just to a less degree than my setup. C: If the water enters the air tract to close to the turbo, the turbo could possibly vaporize and take up valuable volume intended for charge air.
One last thing I was wondering...where exactly is the intake air temperature sensor located that you're getting your readings from???
Last edited by Chronos; 07-16-03 at 07:22 AM.
07-16-03, 10:06 AM
#54
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Buckhead
Posts: 3,323
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by t-von
Or since you are in the expermenting stages, you could add a secondary WI nozzle. Just like the secondary injectors for the fuel system. This way you could run 2 WI nozzles at half the capacity of the one larger one. You could have the first nozzle setup to run at 8 psi and with an additional solenoid & pressure switch run the second nozzle at a higher boost. Overall, you would still have the same WI capacity of your one large one but, you would use half the water during normal driving (low boost situations). Also this way, the system could be left on all the time.
One last thing, is the pump always on? Is it noisy when running?
Or since you are in the expermenting stages, you could add a secondary WI nozzle. Just like the secondary injectors for the fuel system. This way you could run 2 WI nozzles at half the capacity of the one larger one. You could have the first nozzle setup to run at 8 psi and with an additional solenoid & pressure switch run the second nozzle at a higher boost. Overall, you would still have the same WI capacity of your one large one but, you would use half the water during normal driving (low boost situations). Also this way, the system could be left on all the time.
One last thing, is the pump always on? Is it noisy when running?
I thought about a 2 stage system, but I dont want to make it more complicated than it is. Simplicity is pretty nice. 3 gallons lasts forever.
About the pump, you cant hear it. Its completely silent. It only comes on when I hit my 8 lbs of boost. Thats why I have my amber and green LED>>>these are a MUST.
07-16-03, 10:21 AM
#55
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Buckhead
Posts: 3,323
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by Chronos
Your setup definately looks nice for you application, I especially LOVE the idea of using that oil container in the spare tire location as a tank! The only thing I think you might have done differently is installed the spray nozzle in the IC's "cooled air" end tank or just closer to the IC so it has a longer distance to travel and more time to cool down the air thereby increasing it's density before it enters the combustion area. This would not only take away the effects of the heat produced in compressing the air under turbocharging, but make it possible to run COLDER and denser air than an N/A engine! And the colder the better!
As for my application, I'll eventually be running mapped flow rate controlled WI at about a maximum of 22psi on race gas. As such, I'll be pushing the borders of detonation and using more of the water's latent energy control this in the combustion area, rather than using it to gain maximum density of incoming air in the air tract. The location that zerobanger has the water injector installed is perfect for my application. Normally excess fuel (fuel dumping) is used to cool things down in the combustion process, but since water has 7x the latent enery of gas, it can do the job much easier and allow you to keep your air/fuel ratio lean resulting in a quicker cleaner burn. So in my application, installing the injector farther away from the charge air path reserves it's latent energy for the more important task of absorbing the maximum amount of heat in the combustion area, controlling detonation. Since I'll be using a very large V-mount IC system, the compromise won't be too great.
AS for zerobanger's application, however (or those who are considering this with relatively low risk of detonation), you'd be better off using the majority of waters latent energy to bring down intake temps an acheiving the highest air density, resulting in more power. Taking all this into consideration, one last thing you might be considering is "Why not place the injector at the hot endtank of the IC or even well before it to increase the cooling effects on the air???" There's three reasons for that. A: If the water is cooled before or as it travels through the IC, the IC becomes less efficiant. It's better off to let the IC bleed off as much heat as possible, and THEN let the water do it's thing. (Having an additional jet spraying on the outside of IC however would greatly increase the intercooler's efficiancy) B: Since the water's closer to the engine when injected at the cool side of the IC, it can still be used as a cooling agent in the combustion process to prevent detonation, just to a less degree than my setup. C: If the water enters the air tract to close to the turbo, the turbo could possibly vaporize and take up valuable volume intended for charge air.
One last thing I was wondering...where exactly is the intake air temperature sensor located that you're getting your readings from???
Your setup definately looks nice for you application, I especially LOVE the idea of using that oil container in the spare tire location as a tank! The only thing I think you might have done differently is installed the spray nozzle in the IC's "cooled air" end tank or just closer to the IC so it has a longer distance to travel and more time to cool down the air thereby increasing it's density before it enters the combustion area. This would not only take away the effects of the heat produced in compressing the air under turbocharging, but make it possible to run COLDER and denser air than an N/A engine! And the colder the better!
As for my application, I'll eventually be running mapped flow rate controlled WI at about a maximum of 22psi on race gas. As such, I'll be pushing the borders of detonation and using more of the water's latent energy control this in the combustion area, rather than using it to gain maximum density of incoming air in the air tract. The location that zerobanger has the water injector installed is perfect for my application. Normally excess fuel (fuel dumping) is used to cool things down in the combustion process, but since water has 7x the latent enery of gas, it can do the job much easier and allow you to keep your air/fuel ratio lean resulting in a quicker cleaner burn. So in my application, installing the injector farther away from the charge air path reserves it's latent energy for the more important task of absorbing the maximum amount of heat in the combustion area, controlling detonation. Since I'll be using a very large V-mount IC system, the compromise won't be too great.
AS for zerobanger's application, however (or those who are considering this with relatively low risk of detonation), you'd be better off using the majority of waters latent energy to bring down intake temps an acheiving the highest air density, resulting in more power. Taking all this into consideration, one last thing you might be considering is "Why not place the injector at the hot endtank of the IC or even well before it to increase the cooling effects on the air???" There's three reasons for that. A: If the water is cooled before or as it travels through the IC, the IC becomes less efficiant. It's better off to let the IC bleed off as much heat as possible, and THEN let the water do it's thing. (Having an additional jet spraying on the outside of IC however would greatly increase the intercooler's efficiancy) B: Since the water's closer to the engine when injected at the cool side of the IC, it can still be used as a cooling agent in the combustion process to prevent detonation, just to a less degree than my setup. C: If the water enters the air tract to close to the turbo, the turbo could possibly vaporize and take up valuable volume intended for charge air.
One last thing I was wondering...where exactly is the intake air temperature sensor located that you're getting your readings from???
the intake temp sensor is in the stock location (right where I mist) Im reading from the power FC. Thanks for this great contribution to my thread. Its obvious you really know what your talking about. I made the decision to place this nozzel at this location at my mechanics advice (rx7fashion). My reasoning was purely for prevention of detonation. My system turns on at 8 PSI, which is a bit early. I think it should have more than enough time to cool the charge. I had to move my pressure switch, during some bumps the hood would hit the switch, causing it to complete my circuit and run the WI all the time. Becuase of this, my intake temps had dropped to 45 F on a 100F day!!. When I found the problem I relocated it a few inches lower.
I have found that my intake temps during city driving are more stable with the WI on. For example, as long as I hit 8 lbs boost regularly, I find that my intake temps do not increase, they stay stable. Infact I was climbing some elevation for a few minutes or so and found my temps drop dramatically. Without the WI, my temps would have increased. The highway I see mabe a few degrees difference. The funny thing is when my temps dropped to 15C due to that circuit problem, when I turned the WI off manually, my temps were 45C within 90 seconds!!
things I have noticed.
1) intake temps cooler/stable in some situations.
2) Car runs smoother at WOT
3) Car rarely backfires now, when it does its very muffled.
4) inside my exhaust tip is turning white instead of carbon colored. I figure in about 2 more weeks my exhaust will be completely steam cleaned.
5) Using alcohol with the water will cool off even better than just with water and what doesn't evaporate will burn.
How you like the c/f shiftknob you bought from me? HEHE.
07-16-03, 12:35 PM
#56
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Lynchburg, VA
Posts: 674
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
4) inside my exhaust tip is turning white instead of carbon colored. I figure in about 2 more weeks my exhaust will be completely steam cleaned.
is that a joke?
have you ever looked at the amount of time while driving you are actually injecting water? I datalog with my PFC while I’m normally driving I spend far less time under boost than I do under vacuum. In fact for a 20 min drive of normal driving I'd say I spend less than 30 seconds under full boost. so that carbon buildup on the exhaust is likely going to stay there for a while.
rather than dispute some of your assumptions, Ill add my own findings.
I currently run a home brewed system also.
my system however is dual stage.
the first stage is boost controlled. the second stage relies on the condition that the first stage is active, and the second turbo is online. I run 2 different size aquamist injectors one for each stage. in order to calculate my injector sizes, I looked at total fuel flow at my operating boost (12 psi) both in single turbo operation at well as when both turbos are used.
my system uses a fuel pump with a poppet valve as a pressure regulator. I run the system at 70 psi. using the poppet valve as a pressure regulator, the pressure in the lines never falls off between shifts and off boost conditions when the pump is not running.
then I have one main water line running to my control box. there it splits to 2 separate valves. and 2 separate pressure switches. the first is set at about 8 psi. and plumbed to the intake (right at boost gauge) the second is set at about 2 psi and plumbed into the charge relief valve signal line. electrically, the second pressure switch uses the first switch to complete the circuit. This way the second stage valve will not open unless the first stage is also opened AND the second turbo is online.
I also have a little timer circuit that keeps the pump running for 10 seconds after the boost signal disappears. this way the pump runs similar to the way im driving. if Im on it a lot the pump will stay running. If I have been off it for 10 seconds the pump will shut off and wait for a boost signal to turn on again. I did this for the longevity of the pump.
If anyone is interested ill post pictures, parts list, and a diagram to show you what it takes to make a sequential WI system that flows a bit closer to your ideal % fuel to water ratio.
my system cost about 170$
currently I use the stock washer bottle for a holding tank but plans are to make a larger one from aluminum.
is that a joke?
have you ever looked at the amount of time while driving you are actually injecting water? I datalog with my PFC while I’m normally driving I spend far less time under boost than I do under vacuum. In fact for a 20 min drive of normal driving I'd say I spend less than 30 seconds under full boost. so that carbon buildup on the exhaust is likely going to stay there for a while.
rather than dispute some of your assumptions, Ill add my own findings.
I currently run a home brewed system also.
my system however is dual stage.
the first stage is boost controlled. the second stage relies on the condition that the first stage is active, and the second turbo is online. I run 2 different size aquamist injectors one for each stage. in order to calculate my injector sizes, I looked at total fuel flow at my operating boost (12 psi) both in single turbo operation at well as when both turbos are used.
my system uses a fuel pump with a poppet valve as a pressure regulator. I run the system at 70 psi. using the poppet valve as a pressure regulator, the pressure in the lines never falls off between shifts and off boost conditions when the pump is not running.
then I have one main water line running to my control box. there it splits to 2 separate valves. and 2 separate pressure switches. the first is set at about 8 psi. and plumbed to the intake (right at boost gauge) the second is set at about 2 psi and plumbed into the charge relief valve signal line. electrically, the second pressure switch uses the first switch to complete the circuit. This way the second stage valve will not open unless the first stage is also opened AND the second turbo is online.
I also have a little timer circuit that keeps the pump running for 10 seconds after the boost signal disappears. this way the pump runs similar to the way im driving. if Im on it a lot the pump will stay running. If I have been off it for 10 seconds the pump will shut off and wait for a boost signal to turn on again. I did this for the longevity of the pump.
If anyone is interested ill post pictures, parts list, and a diagram to show you what it takes to make a sequential WI system that flows a bit closer to your ideal % fuel to water ratio.
my system cost about 170$
currently I use the stock washer bottle for a holding tank but plans are to make a larger one from aluminum.
07-16-03, 02:31 PM
#58
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Lynchburg, VA
Posts: 674
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ok Ill take some pictures tonight and work on a writeup.
I use all the same parts as you only more quantity
1 pump
1 water container
1 power switch
1 power LED
1 pressure gauge
1 power relay
1 fuse
then
2 pressure switches
2 soleniod valves
2 nozzles
in addition to you
1 poppet valve
1 flow control valve
and several fittings mostly push to connect to keep it looking clean.
I hope the server will work long enough for the pictures to upload.
I use all the same parts as you only more quantity
1 pump
1 water container
1 power switch
1 power LED
1 pressure gauge
1 power relay
1 fuse
then
2 pressure switches
2 soleniod valves
2 nozzles
in addition to you
1 poppet valve
1 flow control valve
and several fittings mostly push to connect to keep it looking clean.
I hope the server will work long enough for the pictures to upload.
07-17-03, 05:49 AM
#60
Rotary Enthusiast
Join Date: May 2002
Location: San Diego
Posts: 971
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by ZeroBanger
How you like the c/f shiftknob you bought from me? HEHE.
How you like the c/f shiftknob you bought from me? HEHE.
Hahahaah!! that's why your name sounded so familiar!
This is why I love this forum! Glad you found the info useful. In the location your injector is in it does still have time to cool down the charge before it reaches the compression area, just not as much if it was installed closer to the IC - But hey...whatever works!
I also would be hesitant about taking the readings from your Temp gauge as accurate as the nozzle is probably literally spraying water right onto it! With the kind of numbers you're talking about (30 degrees below ambient!) an IC would be virtually unnecessary! One thing you can trust though ofcourse is the results...smoother running, clean exhaust, etc. and no matter how much you analyze something, that's all that really matters! For someone else attempting the installation however, I would still recommend a location closer to the IC to maximize on cooling the charge air and yielding the coolest intake temps.And Btw, I simply LOVE that C/F shift ****!!
Whenever I see the stock one on someone's car I can't help but think to tell them what they're missing! Such a better feel!Cheers buddy!
Keep on rotoring!!! 
07-17-03, 09:54 AM
#61
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Buckhead
Posts: 3,323
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by Chronos
Hahahaah!! that's why your name sounded so familiar! This is why I love this forum!
Glad you found the info useful. In the location your injector is in it does still have time to cool down the charge before it reaches the compression area, just not as much if it was installed closer to the IC - But hey...whatever works! I also would be hesitant about taking the readings from your Temp gauge as accurate as the nozzle is probably literally spraying water right onto it! With the kind of numbers you're talking about (30 degrees below ambient!) an IC would be virtually unnecessary! One thing you can trust though ofcourse is the results...smoother running, clean exhaust, etc. and no matter how much you analyze something, that's all that really matters! For someone else attempting the installation however, I would still recommend a location closer to the IC to maximize on cooling the charge air and yielding the coolest intake temps.
And Btw, I simply LOVE that C/F shift ****!! Whenever I see the stock one on someone's car I can't help but think to tell them what they're missing! Such a better feel!
Cheers buddy! Keep on rotoring!!!
Hahahaah!! that's why your name sounded so familiar!
This is why I love this forum! Glad you found the info useful. In the location your injector is in it does still have time to cool down the charge before it reaches the compression area, just not as much if it was installed closer to the IC - But hey...whatever works!
I also would be hesitant about taking the readings from your Temp gauge as accurate as the nozzle is probably literally spraying water right onto it! With the kind of numbers you're talking about (30 degrees below ambient!) an IC would be virtually unnecessary! One thing you can trust though ofcourse is the results...smoother running, clean exhaust, etc. and no matter how much you analyze something, that's all that really matters! For someone else attempting the installation however, I would still recommend a location closer to the IC to maximize on cooling the charge air and yielding the coolest intake temps.And Btw, I simply LOVE that C/F shift ****!!
Whenever I see the stock one on someone's car I can't help but think to tell them what they're missing! Such a better feel!Cheers buddy!
Keep on rotoring!!!
BTW..you need to read a little closer, when my temps were 30 below ambient I had a short in my electrical caused by my pressure switch sometimes hitting my hood of my car, it caused the switch to turn on, so water was running into my car for more than 8 minutes. I have f ixed that, since that time my temps show very stable, but nothing like that.
I was told that its better right before it goes into the engine. He told me something about the shape of the stock elbow and the angle of the spray nozzel made more sense to spray right before entry. Either way, I have it come on at 8 PSI anyway...damn car runs so smooth with WI.
07-17-03, 01:18 PM
#63
Rotary Enthusiast
Join Date: May 2002
Location: San Diego
Posts: 971
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here's an illustration of what I was referring to...
"The above diagram shows how the MF2 controller and water injection components are connected together in 2-D mode. If 3-D mapping is required, the manifold pressure switch is replaced by either a MAP (manifold Absolute Pressure) sensor or a Throttle Angle Sensor.
Water jet locations has a large effect on determining the cooling functions of water:
Position A on the above diagram is for detonation control and improving the volumetric efficiency of the induction stroke as water cools the cylinder walls prior to the entrance of incoming charge air.
Position C is suitable for road cars due to the effect of water on 'water/air' intercooling and detonation control.
Position B is for racing use only as maximum intercooling is the prime concern especially on a hot day, most of the in-cylinder detonation control is done by fuel dumping. "
It's off the aquamist website which is where I acquired a lot of my information.
"The above diagram shows how the MF2 controller and water injection components are connected together in 2-D mode. If 3-D mapping is required, the manifold pressure switch is replaced by either a MAP (manifold Absolute Pressure) sensor or a Throttle Angle Sensor.
Water jet locations has a large effect on determining the cooling functions of water:
Position A on the above diagram is for detonation control and improving the volumetric efficiency of the induction stroke as water cools the cylinder walls prior to the entrance of incoming charge air.
Position C is suitable for road cars due to the effect of water on 'water/air' intercooling and detonation control.
Position B is for racing use only as maximum intercooling is the prime concern especially on a hot day, most of the in-cylinder detonation control is done by fuel dumping. "
It's off the aquamist website which is where I acquired a lot of my information.
07-17-03, 01:27 PM
#64
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Buckhead
Posts: 3,323
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
thats a nice chart, lol.
what does this mean "and improving the volumetric efficiency of the induction stroke as water cools the cylinder walls prior to the entrance of incoming charge air." ?
You know your stuff and im not trying to act like I'm an expert cause I'm not, I'm still learning. Take a look at my pic and see how clean it is. Notice that the selenoid is mounted to the firewall. the selenoid must be within 1 foot foot of the nozzel. Now in the FD think about routing the hose to that location. Keep in mind that the pump is too big to fit in the engine bay so must be in the car somewhere.
so what does it mean "improves volumetric efficency" Does that mean since its so close to the induction of the engine that the water doesn't occupy as much space as it would if it had to travel through the elbow (before it evaported).? I know its a dumb question, but hey.
what does this mean "and improving the volumetric efficiency of the induction stroke as water cools the cylinder walls prior to the entrance of incoming charge air." ?
You know your stuff and im not trying to act like I'm an expert cause I'm not, I'm still learning. Take a look at my pic and see how clean it is. Notice that the selenoid is mounted to the firewall. the selenoid must be within 1 foot foot of the nozzel. Now in the FD think about routing the hose to that location. Keep in mind that the pump is too big to fit in the engine bay so must be in the car somewhere.
so what does it mean "improves volumetric efficency" Does that mean since its so close to the induction of the engine that the water doesn't occupy as much space as it would if it had to travel through the elbow (before it evaported).? I know its a dumb question, but hey.
07-17-03, 02:31 PM
#65
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Myanmar
Posts: 658
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i got another question... if the water injection setup will somehow give a different reading for the air sensor located in the UIM, will relocating this sensor to the intake elbow (found in another thread), right before the nozzle, make a better reading?
Chronos: thats a pretty illustration... you didnt draw it yourself did you?
Chronos: thats a pretty illustration... you didnt draw it yourself did you?
07-17-03, 02:46 PM
#66
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Buckhead
Posts: 3,323
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by Cihuuy
i got another question... if the water injection setup will somehow give a different reading for the air sensor located in the UIM, will relocating this sensor to the intake elbow (found in another thread), right before the nozzle, make a better reading?
Chronos: thats a pretty illustration... you didnt draw it yourself did you?
i got another question... if the water injection setup will somehow give a different reading for the air sensor located in the UIM, will relocating this sensor to the intake elbow (found in another thread), right before the nozzle, make a better reading?
Chronos: thats a pretty illustration... you didnt draw it yourself did you?
I think that the sensor is accurate where its located and where my water injects. If you read my posts in this thread you will see that the crazy temps of 50F in 100F weather was because my water injection had been running at coast for about 8 minutes. You do not see a dramatic change in temps, other than what I pointed out.
Hope that helps.
07-17-03, 02:59 PM
#67
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Myanmar
Posts: 658
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i see what you mean...
The reason people in this forum relocate their air temp sensor is due to heat soak. Which therefore gives a higher temperature reading. Thus, if one would install this water injection setup, we would not need to relocate the air temp sensor as it will constantly being cooled... In conclusion, there is no need to relocate the air temp sensor!?!
but how about heat soak? your system only turns on above 8psi, so if you dont boost, the air temp sensor will still heat soak rite?
sorry for the many question...
The reason people in this forum relocate their air temp sensor is due to heat soak. Which therefore gives a higher temperature reading. Thus, if one would install this water injection setup, we would not need to relocate the air temp sensor as it will constantly being cooled... In conclusion, there is no need to relocate the air temp sensor!?!
but how about heat soak? your system only turns on above 8psi, so if you dont boost, the air temp sensor will still heat soak rite?
sorry for the many question...
07-17-03, 03:10 PM
#68
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Buckhead
Posts: 3,323
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by Cihuuy
i see what you mean...
The reason people in this forum relocate their air temp sensor is due to heat soak. Which therefore gives a higher temperature reading. Thus, if one would install this water injection setup, we would not need to relocate the air temp sensor as it will constantly being cooled... In conclusion, there is no need to relocate the air temp sensor!?!
but how about heat soak? your system only turns on above 8psi, so if you dont boost, the air temp sensor will still heat soak rite?
sorry for the many question...
i see what you mean...
The reason people in this forum relocate their air temp sensor is due to heat soak. Which therefore gives a higher temperature reading. Thus, if one would install this water injection setup, we would not need to relocate the air temp sensor as it will constantly being cooled... In conclusion, there is no need to relocate the air temp sensor!?!
but how about heat soak? your system only turns on above 8psi, so if you dont boost, the air temp sensor will still heat soak rite?
sorry for the many question...
.Remember you can set it to come on at what ever boost you want, but you dont want too much water. The answer is yes, your IC and sensor will heatsoak, but I dont think that matters. The problem I think with the heatsoak is not so much when you are sitting still in traffic heatsoaked, but when you begin to accelerate and hit boost. You will be slower because of the high intake temps and risk detonation. Since the water injection cools the charge before it goes into the engine there is no heatsoak.
Again, Im no expert if someone thinks I'm wrong please correct me. I have done alot of research and found a million webpages on water injection and they all say the same thing. The one thing about water injection that I have found that cant be said about other mods is that there are very little downsides to it. Try to find anything negative about it, you almost cant.
07-18-03, 03:59 AM
#69
Rotary Enthusiast
Join Date: May 2002
Location: San Diego
Posts: 971
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
First of all, no, I did not make that illustration! It's from the Aqaumist website as is the quote beneath it.
The quote noted by the quotation marks in my prior post is referring to a piston engine. I understand it as: When the water enters the cylinder in the induction stroke it quickly cools the cylinder walls resulting in a cooler volume of air which means a denser volume of air. However, in a rotary, the induction area and the compression/combustion area are two sperate things, so it wouldn't have the same effect. I'm sure a good portion of the heat is distributed through the housing over to the induction area's walls anyways though, so the theory would still apply, just to a less degree.
Actually, the only reason why I seem to have all this knowledge on this topic is because it's the first thing since the V-mount intercooler that has really struck me as something that can seriously increase performance with nearly no counter-effects. As such, I've been doing quite a bit of research and devoting a lot of thought to it of recent.
I havn't, however, calculated or thought up the schematics or applications of actually installing the system to the car (except for your awesome idea of using the spare tire space for the tank) And thus don't know if you could actually make it work on a practical level. All I'm saying is that, theoretically, you would probably be better off installing the water injectors farther away from the engine so they would have more time to cool the charge air making it denser, resulting in more air molecules to burn per volume. I beleive that cooling the charge air would have a greater effect on the volumetric efficiancy of the air being pushed into the compression area than the additional cooling of the walls in the compression area prior to combustion.
As far as I'm concerned, there's no dumb questions. If I don't understand something to any degree then all I have is a valuable opportunity to learn! To answer the question, it's my understanding that the "improvement in volumetric efficiency" is due to increase of air density due to the cooler temperatures inside the cylinder when the water cools the walls. However, that's just my understanding, perhaps it could be something else... 
If your temperature gauge is biased because of heat soak you can't get rid of that biased reading from adding another bias! Whether the temp sensor is being heated up or cooled by something other the air, it's a biased reading. The only way the reading is going to be fair with the water injection is if the water is homogenized throughout the entire air mass. Whether or not that's occuring, I can't say...It would have to do with where the temp sensor is located and how much distance does it take for the water to become homogenized in the air. I suppose it also has to do with how the temp sensor works and if water is going to affect it to some degree.
It's from the Aqaumist website as is the quote beneath it.
Originally posted by ZeroBanger
thats a nice chart, lol.
what does this mean "and improving the volumetric efficiency of the induction stroke as water cools the cylinder walls prior to the entrance of incoming charge air." ?
thats a nice chart, lol.
what does this mean "and improving the volumetric efficiency of the induction stroke as water cools the cylinder walls prior to the entrance of incoming charge air." ?
You know your stuff and im not trying to act like I'm an expert cause I'm not, I'm still learning. Take a look at my pic and see how clean it is. Notice that the selenoid is mounted to the firewall. the selenoid must be within 1 foot foot of the nozzel. Now in the FD think about routing the hose to that location. Keep in mind that the pump is too big to fit in the engine bay so must be in the car somewhere.
I havn't, however, calculated or thought up the schematics or applications of actually installing the system to the car (except for your awesome idea of using the spare tire space for the tank)
And thus don't know if you could actually make it work on a practical level. All I'm saying is that, theoretically, you would probably be better off installing the water injectors farther away from the engine so they would have more time to cool the charge air making it denser, resulting in more air molecules to burn per volume. I beleive that cooling the charge air would have a greater effect on the volumetric efficiancy of the air being pushed into the compression area than the additional cooling of the walls in the compression area prior to combustion.
so what does it mean "improves volumetric efficency" Does that mean since its so close to the induction of the engine that the water doesn't occupy as much space as it would if it had to travel through the elbow (before it evaported).? I know its a dumb question, but hey.
To answer the question, it's my understanding that the "improvement in volumetric efficiency" is due to increase of air density due to the cooler temperatures inside the cylinder when the water cools the walls. However, that's just my understanding, perhaps it could be something else...
Originally posted by Cihuuy
The reason people in this forum relocate their air temp sensor is due to heat soak. Which therefore gives a higher temperature reading. Thus, if one would install this water injection setup, we would not need to relocate the air temp sensor as it will constantly being cooled... In conclusion, there is no need to relocate the air temp sensor!?!
The reason people in this forum relocate their air temp sensor is due to heat soak. Which therefore gives a higher temperature reading. Thus, if one would install this water injection setup, we would not need to relocate the air temp sensor as it will constantly being cooled... In conclusion, there is no need to relocate the air temp sensor!?!
Whether the temp sensor is being heated up or cooled by something other the air, it's a biased reading. The only way the reading is going to be fair with the water injection is if the water is homogenized throughout the entire air mass. Whether or not that's occuring, I can't say...It would have to do with where the temp sensor is located and how much distance does it take for the water to become homogenized in the air. I suppose it also has to do with how the temp sensor works and if water is going to affect it to some degree.
Last edited by Chronos; 07-18-03 at 04:10 AM.
07-20-03, 05:49 PM
#70
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Buckhead
Posts: 3,323
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
forcefed1, you said you have a capacitor or some relay that will keep the water pump on for a number of seconds after your boost drops below the pressure point. I would consider this as an enhancement, I would probably run it for 6 seconds after Im off boost. Where did you get it, do you have any links/specs/brand names, instructions, etc? Thanks.
07-20-03, 07:54 PM
#72
WOW!! great thread.. Someone down here in Bham mentioned to me about aquamist.. and since then, I been very interested in WI..
I'm going to go head and tell you guys that i am in no way an expert in this.. and by reading this thread, it make sense some of the things "Zero" did..
I agree with the location of the injector.. especially when it sprays fine mist as "Zero" said.. As I work in biomedical research and have "limit" knowledge in few things.. i would guess (and purely a guess) that when mist/ gas travels in confined area with change in temp, the mist/gas have tendency to condense or change in physical characteristics.. I could be completely wrong about this.. because its been awile.. but I would thing that if injector is located before the IC and using IC to "cool".. my guess is that over time, you will have portion of IC with water.. possibly this might not happen since temp, pressure, etc.. but especially front mount, where IC does not heat up above water vapor temp, my guess is that water will build up inside.. Once again, I could be completely wrong about this.. just my guess knowing it sprays 6.18 GPH, the gravity, pressure, etc.. So, I think the location is perfect.. If I was going to put this kit, thats where i would install.. Right into the engine.. and I don't know how much it will cool down the air temp.. as air temp can only dip down as low as out side temp if you are lucky..
I'm going to go head and tell you guys that i am in no way an expert in this.. and by reading this thread, it make sense some of the things "Zero" did..
I agree with the location of the injector.. especially when it sprays fine mist as "Zero" said.. As I work in biomedical research and have "limit" knowledge in few things.. i would guess (and purely a guess) that when mist/ gas travels in confined area with change in temp, the mist/gas have tendency to condense or change in physical characteristics.. I could be completely wrong about this.. because its been awile.. but I would thing that if injector is located before the IC and using IC to "cool".. my guess is that over time, you will have portion of IC with water.. possibly this might not happen since temp, pressure, etc.. but especially front mount, where IC does not heat up above water vapor temp, my guess is that water will build up inside.. Once again, I could be completely wrong about this.. just my guess knowing it sprays 6.18 GPH, the gravity, pressure, etc.. So, I think the location is perfect.. If I was going to put this kit, thats where i would install.. Right into the engine.. and I don't know how much it will cool down the air temp.. as air temp can only dip down as low as out side temp if you are lucky..
07-21-03, 05:42 AM
#73
Rotary Enthusiast
Join Date: May 2002
Location: San Diego
Posts: 971
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I never said it would be prudent to install the injector before the IC; I said it should be installed after the IC (on the cool endtank) so the difference in temperature between the charge air and ambient air would be greatest, thus letting the intercooler do it's job and work at it's maximum efficiancy. If the water started absorbing heat enery before or as it was going through the IC, less heat would be bled out through the IC because it has allready been absorbed by the water. The illustration on the aquamist actually has this wrong, they show injecting the water before the IC will yield superior intercooling, whereas it should be projected onto the outside of the IC face. Injecting the water before the IC will never be better. I did not suggest it would, read closer next time.
Also, what makes you think that the charge air temps can't become as cool as the air outside? Granted with the sole use of an IC they can't, but who's to say it couldn't with the water cooling the charge air even further after it's passed through the IC? To me, it seems very possible to have cooler than ambient intake temps with such a system.
Ohh yeah, and one more thing...the water is not a gas until it becomes steam which happens in the combustion area, thus, it does not take up precious volume intended for charge air.
Also, what makes you think that the charge air temps can't become as cool as the air outside? Granted with the sole use of an IC they can't, but who's to say it couldn't with the water cooling the charge air even further after it's passed through the IC? To me, it seems very possible to have cooler than ambient intake temps with such a system.
Ohh yeah, and one more thing...the water is not a gas until it becomes steam which happens in the combustion area, thus, it does not take up precious volume intended for charge air.
Last edited by Chronos; 07-21-03 at 05:57 AM.
07-21-03, 05:59 AM
#74
Rotary Enthusiast
Join Date: May 2002
Location: San Diego
Posts: 971
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Btw ZoomZoom, since you decided to contribute to this thread, how bout giving us some details on your system and results...I plan on using aquamist as well when the time comes
07-21-03, 09:06 AM
#75
Full Member
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Sweden
Posts: 192
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by ZeroBanger
the nozzel sprays at a rate of 6.32 Gallons per hour. When I hit 8 PSI (thats my setting, I can change it), It will turn on and stay at the exact rate of 6.32 GPH until I drop below 8. Once I go below 8 it turns off. So 8 PSI, 14 PSI=same amount of water.
the nozzel sprays at a rate of 6.32 Gallons per hour. When I hit 8 PSI (thats my setting, I can change it), It will turn on and stay at the exact rate of 6.32 GPH until I drop below 8. Once I go below 8 it turns off. So 8 PSI, 14 PSI=same amount of water.
5.53 GPH might still be plenty of water for your application, I wouldn't know.
Very nice and clean install, might need some pressure regulation though.