NPR IC flow question
06-28-04, 10:06 PM
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NPR IC flow question
hey every1,
Here's what im looking for. I need a cheap IC that will free up the bottleneck caused by the stock IC. It needs to flow enough to support 400HP. I'm not worried about cooling because it will be rendered a backup for my water injection kit. http://www.audioinsanity.com/picture...i-IMG_5605.htm That's a picture of my friend's NPR Small....will that flow enough for 400hp or not? And if not, got any other suggestions for a cheap IC?
Thanks,
-Zach
Here's what im looking for. I need a cheap IC that will free up the bottleneck caused by the stock IC. It needs to flow enough to support 400HP. I'm not worried about cooling because it will be rendered a backup for my water injection kit. http://www.audioinsanity.com/picture...i-IMG_5605.htm That's a picture of my friend's NPR Small....will that flow enough for 400hp or not? And if not, got any other suggestions for a cheap IC?
Thanks,
-Zach
06-28-04, 10:17 PM
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I dont know about the flow, but I think you need to rethink the design for the intakes, because how it is, its only going to suck the hot air from the intercooler/radiator.
06-28-04, 10:19 PM
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yeah im going to do that all differently, and again the hot air really isnt an issue due to the water injection 
Anyone run a single (to4s or 40r sized) on a IC this size?
Anyone run a single (to4s or 40r sized) on a IC this size?
06-28-04, 10:56 PM
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OK....everyone is missing the point here.
1) that is not my car, its a friends for a picture reference
2) i am going to install mine differently with DUCTING and a different mounting of the intake
3) i DO NOT CARE about cooling...i am installing WATER INJECTION for that purpose.
4) will this IC be able to FLOW enough for 400hp?
1) that is not my car, its a friends for a picture reference
2) i am going to install mine differently with DUCTING and a different mounting of the intake
3) i DO NOT CARE about cooling...i am installing WATER INJECTION for that purpose.
4) will this IC be able to FLOW enough for 400hp?
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06-29-04, 12:23 AM
#8
Originally posted by teamstealth
3) i DO NOT CARE about cooling...i am installing WATER INJECTION for that purpose.
4) will this IC be able to FLOW enough for 400hp?
3) i DO NOT CARE about cooling...i am installing WATER INJECTION for that purpose.
4) will this IC be able to FLOW enough for 400hp?
I think you're over estimating the cooling of water injection in the extreme or you're going to need a 55 gallon drum of ice water in the rear bins and hatch.
I'll play along though, if you don't care about the cooling of the IC why not just delete it? Fabricate a 2 3/4" tube from the turbo outputs to the throttle body. If you don't need the IC for cooling then deleting it and making a single tube will produce the best flow by a long shot.
Kevin T. Wyum
06-29-04, 12:31 AM
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Originally posted by Kevin T. Wyum
I think you're over estimating the cooling of water injection in the extreme or you're going to need a 55 gallon drum of ice water in the rear bins and hatch.
I'll play along though, if you don't care about the cooling of the IC why not just delete it? Fabricate a 2 3/4" tube from the turbo outputs to the throttle body. If you don't need the IC for cooling then deleting it and making a single tube will produce the best flow by a long shot.
Kevin T. Wyum
I think you're over estimating the cooling of water injection in the extreme or you're going to need a 55 gallon drum of ice water in the rear bins and hatch.
I'll play along though, if you don't care about the cooling of the IC why not just delete it? Fabricate a 2 3/4" tube from the turbo outputs to the throttle body. If you don't need the IC for cooling then deleting it and making a single tube will produce the best flow by a long shot.
Kevin T. Wyum
Im sure you know this but you dont need "ice" in the water, its not about the water being cold, its more about the waters ability to soak up the heat during evaporation.
In terms of the cooling effects of an intercooler vs Water injection there is absolutly zero comparision. Set your water injection up right you will be running at ambient temps all day long. The harder you run the cooler your car will be.
I had toyed with the idea of eliminating the intercooler and while I know its possible with water injection, its not practicle. The water injection while inherently superior to an intercooler for cooling, is not as reliable. I can name a number of times I would have blown my engine if I had no intercooler. I think of the intercooler as a backup to the water injection, and I think thats what our friend mr. stealth was thinking too.
Also, it sounds to me his thread was talking about running water injection WITH the intercooler. He will hardly need a "55" gallon drum. I have a 2.5 gallon supply of water and lasts between fill ups.
BTW, I ran 89 octain 2 weeks ago @ 12 psi with my water injection and tiny Blitz SMIC. While that may be no amazing feat, I wouldn't try that with a FMIC, especially since I did it during the heat of the day.
Last edited by ZeroBanger; 06-29-04 at 12:33 AM.
06-29-04, 07:01 AM
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Zerobanger's right. I will have an IC in there, properly ducted as a backup to the water injection. My point is that i dont need to go out and buy a $1400 intercooler with a very efficient core because the water injection will render it almost useless.
06-29-04, 10:31 AM
#11
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with wi, goal should be minimize pressure drop in the IC.
stock was measured at 2.6 psi at 12 psi boost by sccc.
the small npr core is 8.5x2 on the charge flow side, and 20" long, designed for about 150 hp of airflow. stock fd ic is 11x2.5x 4.5" long .... likely much more pressure drop with the small npr.
yes, big hp can be made for drag cars with this ic, but they don't care is they have 6 psi drop across it ... just put a huge turbo on ... rebuild often.
with wi, I suggest low pressure drop IC's, which for cheap would include used greddy and blitz smics.
stock was measured at 2.6 psi at 12 psi boost by sccc.
the small npr core is 8.5x2 on the charge flow side, and 20" long, designed for about 150 hp of airflow. stock fd ic is 11x2.5x 4.5" long .... likely much more pressure drop with the small npr.
yes, big hp can be made for drag cars with this ic, but they don't care is they have 6 psi drop across it ... just put a huge turbo on ... rebuild often.
with wi, I suggest low pressure drop IC's, which for cheap would include used greddy and blitz smics.
06-29-04, 02:18 PM
#12
Why wouldn't you use chilled water? Yes, the bulk of the cooling comes from the state change of the water,
(I do the same thing with a big fan blowing across the top of my coral tank to cool the water) but water also absorbs a significant amount of energy in simple temerature change. It seems like a lot of free cooling you're ignoring.
I am curious what the basis is for thinking that you'd be able to run ambient temps at sustained max boost, such as on a road course, with no intercooler at all just using water injection?
There's a lot to this topic and a lot of different aspects to consider that might make for a very interesting discussion. You've seen how much time we can consume debating the merits of simply placing an IC in a different place, imagine how much we could consume discussing this. Of course there will always be those that wish to keep the peace and remind us that they can be used together and, in fact, they are synergistic. : ) Some of the primary issues would be things like how does the supersaturated air interact with the engine, lubrication, combustion, corrosion. How much does ambient humidity impact efficiency? Would a person in the Everglades during summer see the same benefits as a person in the high dessert of Willow Springs? What happens if the temp falls below freezing overnight? Do the lines rupture and the tank crack? Anyway it would be an interesting topic to talk about. Wouldn't it be better to use a combustable such as alcohol etc.?
Kevin T. Wyum
(I do the same thing with a big fan blowing across the top of my coral tank to cool the water) but water also absorbs a significant amount of energy in simple temerature change. It seems like a lot of free cooling you're ignoring.
I am curious what the basis is for thinking that you'd be able to run ambient temps at sustained max boost, such as on a road course, with no intercooler at all just using water injection?
There's a lot to this topic and a lot of different aspects to consider that might make for a very interesting discussion. You've seen how much time we can consume debating the merits of simply placing an IC in a different place, imagine how much we could consume discussing this. Of course there will always be those that wish to keep the peace and remind us that they can be used together and, in fact, they are synergistic. : ) Some of the primary issues would be things like how does the supersaturated air interact with the engine, lubrication, combustion, corrosion. How much does ambient humidity impact efficiency? Would a person in the Everglades during summer see the same benefits as a person in the high dessert of Willow Springs? What happens if the temp falls below freezing overnight? Do the lines rupture and the tank crack? Anyway it would be an interesting topic to talk about. Wouldn't it be better to use a combustable such as alcohol etc.?
Kevin T. Wyum
06-29-04, 03:06 PM
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Originally posted by Kevin T. Wyum
Why wouldn't you use chilled water? Yes, the bulk of the cooling comes from the state change of the water,
(I do the same thing with a big fan blowing across the top of my coral tank to cool the water) but water also absorbs a significant amount of energy in simple temerature change. It seems like a lot of free cooling you're ignoring.
First I may have misjudged you. I assumed you would immediately bash water injection cause your investment is in intercoolers, maybe I was wrong
I think there is a slight difference between cooling and anti-detonation properties of the water. My purpose of using water injection is to prevent detonation, I dont know that using ice to chill the water would make it less likely to detonate. I leave open the chance that I am wrong though. The real question is, would more power be made due to the extra coolness of the air? As it stands now running ambient temperature water into your intake cools the intake considerably. you would think you would gain power from that, but in effect there is less air in the intake because in the place of the air is water now. So what happens is you have a cancelation effect...in otherwords you dont gain or lose power from water injection (comparing same amount of boost..but WI allows you to raise the boost if you want.). Now having said that, what if the water was ice cold? the oxygen content should be the same as if the water was ambient. In my twisted mind you may get more power. May be something fun to do at the drag strip.
I am curious what the basis is for thinking that you'd be able to run ambient temps at sustained max boost, such as on a road course, with no intercooler at all just using water injection?
I am absolutely 100 pct certain you will sustain ambient temps assuming the water injection is set up right. The biggest problem if eliminating the intercooler is fitting a large enough water tank. you can do it, but it would require some customization. I have my car set up to spray a very small 2.0 GPH nozzel into my intake elbow. I do not spray it into the throttle body, but in fact spray it toward the IC. This was done to make sure the water evaporates and cools the air prior to getting in the engine. This nozzel is set up to run at 1 psi. When it sprays and brings the car to ambient temps its just like when you start your car in the morning how it takes a while for your temps to raise again. its not like you spray the water and 5 seconds later the temps drop and then 10 seconds later they rise again...its literally 5 minutes or so before they start to go up again...thats assuming you dont boost inbetween.
Now if that same person has the water injection set up at 10 PSI, that is a different story. He may hit 10 psi enough to cool it down, but may not sustain ambient temps.
My system sprays the 2 GPH nozzel at 1 psi and then at 12 sprays a 3 GPH into the exit tank of the intercooler. I believe its better to let the intercooler do its job and cool the air, and then cool it more after the IC and of course it gets cooled one more time at the throttle body.
There's a lot to this topic and a lot of different aspects to consider that might make for a very interesting discussion. You've seen how much time we can consume debating the merits of simply placing an IC in a different place, imagine how much we could consume discussing this. Of course there will always be those that wish to keep the peace and remind us that they can be used together and, in fact, they are synergistic. : )
In a 3rd gen rx-7 at this point im agreeing with you about using an IC and WI together. I know WI has better cooling potential but its not as reliable/fool proof. If I owned a turbo Miata or other piston engine I'd just do water injection.
Some of the primary issues would be things like how does the supersaturated air interact with the engine, lubrication, combustion, corrosion. How much does ambient humidity impact efficiency? Would a person in the Everglades during summer see the same benefits as a person in the high dessert of Willow Springs? What happens if the temp falls below freezing overnight? Do the lines rupture and the tank crack? Anyway it would be an interesting topic to talk about. Wouldn't it be better to use a combustable such as alcohol etc.?
Kevin T. Wyum
Why wouldn't you use chilled water? Yes, the bulk of the cooling comes from the state change of the water,
(I do the same thing with a big fan blowing across the top of my coral tank to cool the water) but water also absorbs a significant amount of energy in simple temerature change. It seems like a lot of free cooling you're ignoring.
First I may have misjudged you. I assumed you would immediately bash water injection cause your investment is in intercoolers, maybe I was wrong
I think there is a slight difference between cooling and anti-detonation properties of the water. My purpose of using water injection is to prevent detonation, I dont know that using ice to chill the water would make it less likely to detonate. I leave open the chance that I am wrong though. The real question is, would more power be made due to the extra coolness of the air? As it stands now running ambient temperature water into your intake cools the intake considerably. you would think you would gain power from that, but in effect there is less air in the intake because in the place of the air is water now. So what happens is you have a cancelation effect...in otherwords you dont gain or lose power from water injection (comparing same amount of boost..but WI allows you to raise the boost if you want.). Now having said that, what if the water was ice cold? the oxygen content should be the same as if the water was ambient. In my twisted mind you may get more power. May be something fun to do at the drag strip.
I am curious what the basis is for thinking that you'd be able to run ambient temps at sustained max boost, such as on a road course, with no intercooler at all just using water injection?
I am absolutely 100 pct certain you will sustain ambient temps assuming the water injection is set up right. The biggest problem if eliminating the intercooler is fitting a large enough water tank. you can do it, but it would require some customization. I have my car set up to spray a very small 2.0 GPH nozzel into my intake elbow. I do not spray it into the throttle body, but in fact spray it toward the IC. This was done to make sure the water evaporates and cools the air prior to getting in the engine. This nozzel is set up to run at 1 psi. When it sprays and brings the car to ambient temps its just like when you start your car in the morning how it takes a while for your temps to raise again. its not like you spray the water and 5 seconds later the temps drop and then 10 seconds later they rise again...its literally 5 minutes or so before they start to go up again...thats assuming you dont boost inbetween.
Now if that same person has the water injection set up at 10 PSI, that is a different story. He may hit 10 psi enough to cool it down, but may not sustain ambient temps.
My system sprays the 2 GPH nozzel at 1 psi and then at 12 sprays a 3 GPH into the exit tank of the intercooler. I believe its better to let the intercooler do its job and cool the air, and then cool it more after the IC and of course it gets cooled one more time at the throttle body.
There's a lot to this topic and a lot of different aspects to consider that might make for a very interesting discussion. You've seen how much time we can consume debating the merits of simply placing an IC in a different place, imagine how much we could consume discussing this. Of course there will always be those that wish to keep the peace and remind us that they can be used together and, in fact, they are synergistic. : )
In a 3rd gen rx-7 at this point im agreeing with you about using an IC and WI together. I know WI has better cooling potential but its not as reliable/fool proof. If I owned a turbo Miata or other piston engine I'd just do water injection.
Some of the primary issues would be things like how does the supersaturated air interact with the engine, lubrication, combustion, corrosion. How much does ambient humidity impact efficiency? Would a person in the Everglades during summer see the same benefits as a person in the high dessert of Willow Springs? What happens if the temp falls below freezing overnight? Do the lines rupture and the tank crack? Anyway it would be an interesting topic to talk about. Wouldn't it be better to use a combustable such as alcohol etc.?
Kevin T. Wyum
Using 100 pct alcohol would be bad because it would contribute to heat since it burns. A mix of water/alcohol should give you higher octain like race gas and still soak up the heat for anti-detonation properties. When I race at the drag strip I will use 50/50 methanol and water. on the street I use just water.
I have no fears of any engine rust. anything that gets in the engine prior to evaporating in the intake will be turned to steam and go out the exhaust.
just my research over the last year. Next month will be 12 months of daily driving with my water injection.
Last edited by ZeroBanger; 06-29-04 at 03:10 PM.
06-29-04, 03:46 PM
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Originally posted by KevinK2
with wi, goal should be minimize pressure drop in the IC.
stock was measured at 2.6 psi at 12 psi boost by sccc.
the small npr core is 8.5x2 on the charge flow side, and 20" long, designed for about 150 hp of airflow. stock fd ic is 11x2.5x 4.5" long .... likely much more pressure drop with the small npr.
yes, big hp can be made for drag cars with this ic, but they don't care is they have 6 psi drop across it ... just put a huge turbo on ... rebuild often.
with wi, I suggest low pressure drop IC's, which for cheap would include used greddy and blitz smics.
with wi, goal should be minimize pressure drop in the IC.
stock was measured at 2.6 psi at 12 psi boost by sccc.
the small npr core is 8.5x2 on the charge flow side, and 20" long, designed for about 150 hp of airflow. stock fd ic is 11x2.5x 4.5" long .... likely much more pressure drop with the small npr.
yes, big hp can be made for drag cars with this ic, but they don't care is they have 6 psi drop across it ... just put a huge turbo on ... rebuild often.
with wi, I suggest low pressure drop IC's, which for cheap would include used greddy and blitz smics.
I have an opportunity to buy a used SR Motorsports HMIC with a Spearco core for fairly cheap...i imagine that would suffice for a good pressure drop #?
Last edited by teamstealth; 06-29-04 at 03:56 PM.
06-29-04, 03:55 PM
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Originally posted by teamstealth
thanks for the stats and dimensions KevinK2....looks like im gonna need a mid-range price IC anyway for the sole purpose of pressure drop then...what would you all suggest?
thanks for the stats and dimensions KevinK2....looks like im gonna need a mid-range price IC anyway for the sole purpose of pressure drop then...what would you all suggest?
If I had a single I'd either get a Blitz FMIC or something like the ASP Medium. If the Blitz or greddy SMIC's do flow enough air for a single, I'd definatly stay with that. I have no complaints about my blitz
06-29-04, 04:00 PM
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Originally posted by ZeroBanger
If I had a single I'd either get a Blitz FMIC or something like the ASP Medium. If the Blitz or greddy SMIC's do flow enough air for a single, I'd definatly stay with that. I have no complaints about my blitz
If I had a single I'd either get a Blitz FMIC or something like the ASP Medium. If the Blitz or greddy SMIC's do flow enough air for a single, I'd definatly stay with that. I have no complaints about my blitz
Would a custom IC with a spearco bar and plate core work well for my application? Its dimensions are 13x13x3 for the core and 3x3 end tanks...opinions/comments?
06-29-04, 05:25 PM
#17
13 height and 3 depth would be very good for flow, might not fit though. Since you're on a real budget I'd almost suggest a used PFS IC but the core is a little short which causes higher pressure drop, counter to what your primary goal is. The key things to look at are core height and depth, assuming charge flow is from side to side.
Kevin T. Wyum
Kevin T. Wyum
06-29-04, 05:34 PM
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Kevin...
Why dont you build a water injection intercooler? That would be really cool. the intercooler would be the same size as your large or medium ic, but have a chamber of water..lets say about 3/4 gallon. As you boost, based on pressure the water sprays into the end tank. keep it simple, no hoses or external water tank. Would work off boost pressure. Rig some sort of led to indicate water running low...
I'll buy one today...Anyone else in for the group buy?
Why dont you build a water injection intercooler? That would be really cool. the intercooler would be the same size as your large or medium ic, but have a chamber of water..lets say about 3/4 gallon. As you boost, based on pressure the water sprays into the end tank. keep it simple, no hoses or external water tank. Would work off boost pressure. Rig some sort of led to indicate water running low...
I'll buy one today...Anyone else in for the group buy?
06-29-04, 06:14 PM
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Originally posted by Kevin T. Wyum
13 height and 3 depth would be very good for flow, might not fit though. Since you're on a real budget I'd almost suggest a used PFS IC but the core is a little short which causes higher pressure drop, counter to what your primary goal is. The key things to look at are core height and depth, assuming charge flow is from side to side.
Kevin T. Wyum
13 height and 3 depth would be very good for flow, might not fit though. Since you're on a real budget I'd almost suggest a used PFS IC but the core is a little short which causes higher pressure drop, counter to what your primary goal is. The key things to look at are core height and depth, assuming charge flow is from side to side.
Kevin T. Wyum
06-29-04, 07:37 PM
#20
The general idea is the larger the passage for charge air to flow through the less restriction (pressure drop) it will see. In the case of an IC with end tanks on the sides, charge air flows from side to side, meaning height will increase the charge passage, so will depth (how thick the core is). If the end tanks are on the top and bottom then you care how wide and deep the core is.
06-29-04, 08:26 PM
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I thought u meant the pipes on the end tanks not the tanks themselves...the IC flows side to side, so it sounds like a good fit for what im looking for Thanks for ur help kevin!
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