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Greddy Vmount IATs with single turbo 450+hp - Does it work?

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Old Sep 17, 2024 | 09:15 PM
  #126  
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From: Japanabama
Originally Posted by coupe-r
Yes I have a brand new bumper and lip to go on once panel and paint starts.
No aero on the dyno anyways However the bonnet will be up for the runs

Street temps are always different to dyno, but yes I can only improve on the setup that is there.(seal up gaps etc) This is just to give everyone an idea of how it performs out of the box.
Does the new bumper have a bigger opening? If you don't have proper ducting, this might might help a bit.
I would consider throwing some aluminum duct tape on the gaps and seeing whether it makes a difference.
I swear taping up the gaps made a difference on my car...
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Old Sep 17, 2024 | 09:34 PM
  #127  
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Does the new bumper have a bigger opening?
No It's a brand new series 6 bumper skin from mazda.
​​​​​​​If you don't have proper ducting, this might might help a bit.
On the road yes on the dyno not so much, its just gonna be fan speed through the core (fan pointed right at core) and efficiency of the core itself.

But yes the plan is seal up the gaps on the sides and rear of the core (left over sponge tape from the kit should do it.)
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Old Oct 8, 2024 | 07:55 PM
  #128  
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DYNO UPDATE!!!:
Had the car on the dyno a couple of weeks back, was a fairly warm day and hot/stuffy in the dyno room.
The GOOD news, the engine made exactly 450hp at the rear hubs on 17.8psi on BP 98 octane (NZ octane so RON rating)
No water meth with the greddy vmount kit, running 8-9 degrees leading with a 10 degree split.
R7420 10.5/11 plugs
Intake temps were not amazing stating a 32C each run and ending about 52C or so. (on the 20psi runs it increased 23C over the starting temp to 56C!)

THE BAD NEWS: Rear rotor now has ZERO compression on all faces
So the mixtures were looking good on the dyno around 10.8:1. Made the FATAL mistake of not fitting the knock earmuffs due to time constraints that morning and getting too complacent that "its been fine on the street with no logged knock"

The hardware light (Cat light was flashing at peak torque 6400, also 6800 and 7000) Foolishly I dismissed that as "injector duty warning"
Pressed on and turned it up to 20psi target (hit 19.5psi). At this point everything was VERY heat soaked with no exhaust manifold shield, lower manifold shield or turbo beanie.....
It made 3 20 psi runs at 458hp and heat soaked, on the last 19.5 psi run it dropped the rear rotor. Targeting 7 degrees leading (but power FC was outputting 8)

Looking over the logs again that night, I could see the hardware light coming on, BUT sometimes missing the knock event.
Because its running an old power FC and I am logging all channels, the logging rate isn't GREAT and was missing the knock events.... (but the light never misses as its directly wired to the output of the FC)
Shown below are 2 logs where the knock event was obvious!
Each time there was a knock event my AFR spiked about half a point richer...

If you look closely in the dyno video you will see black puffs of smoke at each knock event (3 of them)
Also if you listen in the fuel pressure video the knock is VERY obvious (just after the bubbles clear in the gauge) the knock even puts a shockwave through the fluid in the pressure gauge. (you could not hear this in person as it was just ALL NOISE)

SO looks like I'm tearing the 13B down, unknown engine also with what looks like an extended port. Looking through the exhaust port it still has all 3 apex seals and they are still springy. (likely chipped corner seals and corner of apex seals)
Luckily the brand new S362 SX-E looks intact.
Lesson, DON'T run that much boost on pump with THAT much timing and temperatures.

I'm now quite gun shy, was REALLY trying to avoid water meth, maybe if I had run 2-4 degrees leading at 17-18psi I MAY have got away with it.

Dyno plot showing greddy vmount vs stock mount (more boost on this run but still made 450hp at 17-18psi)


Boost curve



Logs knock at 17.5psi


19.8 psi run where it dropped rear rotor (in the video)


Dyno videos


Last edited by coupe-r; Oct 8, 2024 at 08:06 PM.
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Old Oct 9, 2024 | 03:20 AM
  #129  
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From: Hunter Valley NSW Australia
Bugger.

Thanks for sharing.
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Old Oct 9, 2024 | 10:14 AM
  #130  
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That sucks. Sorry to hear that. What did your intake air temps get up to?
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Old Oct 10, 2024 | 11:03 AM
  #131  
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I'm curious as to the decision to run 10 degree split. That's pretty aggressive, especially for a 93 octane equivalent fuel. Seems like high risk with very little reward. At least my experience. Getting aggressive with the split make almost no extra power and leads to warped seals if you are running seals that bend reather then break.
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Old Oct 10, 2024 | 01:53 PM
  #132  
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Aggressive

20psi boost on 98 euro mon is pretty aggressive.

98 euro mon is 94 in usa 94 octane numbers [ (ron+min)/2 ]

For example Knightsports says 100 mon (95.75 usa) is required for 14psi on stock twins with bolt-ons.

So, tune to 14psi boost on the rebuild?
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Old Oct 10, 2024 | 04:02 PM
  #133  
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From: Bay of Plenty
I'm curious as to the decision to run 10 degree split. That's pretty aggressive, especially for a 93 octane equivalent fuel. Seems like high risk with very little reward. At least my experience. Getting aggressive with the split make almost no extra power and leads to warped seals if you are running seals that bend reather then break.
I must admit, while I've tuned literally hundreds of cars over the past 16 years, this is my first ever rotary powered car I've tuned. The decision for 10 degree split was really just by recommendation. 10 degree is a pretty wide split under full power (it's also about 4-6 degrees lazier than factory maps at that same boost level (different power I know)

So my rotary experience is very little, I'm all ears if you have any recommendations in general, or why 10 degrees is too aggressive?
Personally, next time will prob be a 12 degree split, with MUCH lower leading timing. I feel it wasn't the SPLIT that was my issue, it was simple too aggressive leading timing at 8-9 degrees advance on pump at that boost and temps.

Aggressive

20psi boost on 98 euro mon is pretty aggressive.

98 euro mon is 94 in usa 94 octane numbers [ (ron+min)/2 ]

For example Knightsports says 100 mon (95.75 usa) is required for 14psi on stock twins with bolt-ons.

So, tune to 14psi boost on the rebuild?
its 98 BP Ultimate RON we use (getting ya RON and MON mixed up there)
Remember 14psi is spinning the stock twins pretty hard, with the stock intercooler. Its not really comparing apples with apples.

Issue was simple too much advance for that fuel, boost and temperature.
The engine would still be alive if we fitted the link knock block like we usually do...

Plan is to rebuild, BUT I still really want around 315-330kw area without water meth ideally.... I think it can be done safely (happy to hear why I'm an idiot, I guess the motor already told me that)
So plans are also much more shielding (rather than ZERO) to help.

Starting at 2-4 degrees leading advance (rather than 7-8) and a 12 split. with a max of 17-18psi. (1.25kg)
I've been told by a few rotary tuning experts here go more like a 12 split and start at 2-4 degrees leading and roll into it (with knock earmuffs)

I'll start at 16 psi and listen for knock and temps, if 18psi isn't going to work then I may just have to water meth, or admit defeat at lower power levels.
I've also been told the main reason for my issues on pump is the small 76mm turbine wheel on pump gas, vs much less EMAP and therefore knock with a 80mm.

Also its not just about X boost = X power, its about porting, turbo, temps etc, whole package. For example another tuner here has a 400kw 13B full cut bridge 18psi S366 SX-E on 98 pump gas, safely... But it also needs 2-4 degree leading timing

Decision for the S362 SX-E was street car. I also got carried away as I'm used to tuning hondas, where even a dirty ol B18C turbo can EASILY make 330-350kw, and last...

Last edited by coupe-r; Oct 10, 2024 at 04:25 PM.
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Old Oct 10, 2024 | 05:10 PM
  #134  
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Once you hear knock, it's already too late on a rotary engine.
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Old Oct 10, 2024 | 05:16 PM
  #135  
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Once you hear knock, it's already too late on a rotary engine.
Yup thats the general accepted idea, this knocked on 8 dyno runs (3 times EACH run), so it really took quite a BEATING to properly kill it as it only DIED on the last run, previous runs the power was still there.
HEARING knock externally without knock muffs is a BIG knock event also. Poor thing.
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Old Oct 10, 2024 | 05:53 PM
  #136  
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Sorry, didnt see you stated 98 RON in your post.
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