Battery charge/dying/annoying
09-09-13, 11:11 AM
#1
Battery charge/dying/annoying
Hey guys... as you know I've got a couple weeks before I head back to get my car tuned and I've had a problem with my Battery Dying since the completion of the mechanical build.
Here are all symptoms to my knowledge.
- Brand new Battery
- Starter Cranked Hard when brand new
- Starter Cranks slow after car is started or driven UNLESS cruising at higher rpm (4000RPM and up)
- If I drive a couple min at higher RPM usually 55-60mph and up for a few min I can turn the car off and crank it over just fine. (Starter turns motor fast)
-If no,....the starter cranks the motor slow and slowly turns slower after about 10 seconds of cranking. Then I have to push start the car.
*This was a very WEIRD thing that happened twice so far:
Turned the car off after initial start up after re-installing the motor. Fluids were just fine, and the motor idled just fine and everything was dandy. Let it run for about 30 min so I could iron out leaks and bleed the coolant system. I turned the car off and went and ate lunch. Came back and went to turn the car back on and it was cranking slow. Pretty much twice as slow as normal. Tried to start the car multiple (5-6) times but it was so slow to crank it wasn't catching. Hooked up my jumper cables and let it charge for a min or two... cranked a little bit quicker but still not as fast as normal. Then while cranking I stopped..pushed the clutch in and out a couple times...fully pushed the clutch in like normal and the motor cranked slow over ONE turn then all the sudden BAM!! Started turning fast again and the car started.
Turned the car off again and let it sit. Went to start it again without jumper cables...turned slow again... would start but starter still turns slow.
Here is what I have done to try and sort the problem.
- Brand New battery as of yesterday
- Re did Battery grounds on front harness while the motor was out as the problem was happening before I pulled the motor. Problem is still happening despite re doing front harness grounds
- Starter is fresh and had it inspected 3 weeks ago and is passed with flying colors.
- Had alternator previously tested and it passed the Autozone test just fine as well.
Other than that I'm really getting frustrated.
I thought maybe I should run new wiring to the starter...but if it turns over like normal when the batter is BRAND new or after cruising at higher RPM then the wiring should be fine.
Only thing I can think of is...maybe the car isn't charging the battery efficiently. How can I check if the alternator is return charging?
Any help is appreciated
- Ap
Here are all symptoms to my knowledge.
- Brand new Battery
- Starter Cranked Hard when brand new
- Starter Cranks slow after car is started or driven UNLESS cruising at higher rpm (4000RPM and up)
- If I drive a couple min at higher RPM usually 55-60mph and up for a few min I can turn the car off and crank it over just fine. (Starter turns motor fast)
-If no,....the starter cranks the motor slow and slowly turns slower after about 10 seconds of cranking. Then I have to push start the car.
*This was a very WEIRD thing that happened twice so far:
Turned the car off after initial start up after re-installing the motor. Fluids were just fine, and the motor idled just fine and everything was dandy. Let it run for about 30 min so I could iron out leaks and bleed the coolant system. I turned the car off and went and ate lunch. Came back and went to turn the car back on and it was cranking slow. Pretty much twice as slow as normal. Tried to start the car multiple (5-6) times but it was so slow to crank it wasn't catching. Hooked up my jumper cables and let it charge for a min or two... cranked a little bit quicker but still not as fast as normal. Then while cranking I stopped..pushed the clutch in and out a couple times...fully pushed the clutch in like normal and the motor cranked slow over ONE turn then all the sudden BAM!! Started turning fast again and the car started.
Turned the car off again and let it sit. Went to start it again without jumper cables...turned slow again... would start but starter still turns slow.
Here is what I have done to try and sort the problem.
- Brand New battery as of yesterday
- Re did Battery grounds on front harness while the motor was out as the problem was happening before I pulled the motor. Problem is still happening despite re doing front harness grounds
- Starter is fresh and had it inspected 3 weeks ago and is passed with flying colors.
- Had alternator previously tested and it passed the Autozone test just fine as well.
Other than that I'm really getting frustrated.
I thought maybe I should run new wiring to the starter...but if it turns over like normal when the batter is BRAND new or after cruising at higher RPM then the wiring should be fine.
Only thing I can think of is...maybe the car isn't charging the battery efficiently. How can I check if the alternator is return charging?
Any help is appreciated
- Ap
09-09-13, 12:54 PM
#4
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At idle with no accessories on, you should have between 14.2 and 13.6 volts at the battery, depending on how hot the alternator is. There's a temperature compensation mechanism in the voltage regulator that drops the output as the temperature gets higher so as not to boil the battery as the engine bay heats up.
I would also love to know how much resistance you're seeing between any random metal part of the engine and the negative terminal on the battery.
You only mention front harness grounds which I assume are the two in the very front behind the bumper. What about the ground strap that runs from the engine to the chassis on the passenger side? What about the ground wire coming off the battery? It grounds to the chassis very close to the battery, then I'm not sure where it goes from there, but probably to the engine somewhere.
I'd say the clutch switch is a red herring as far as slow cranking is concerned. Either there is enough current to close the starter solenoid and get the starter motor turning, or there isn't. Starter motor speed is a function of load and available power. Clutch switch has nothing to do with load or how much power is available to the starter motor itself.
09-09-13, 01:10 PM
#5
Sounds to me like it isn't charging. Time to bust out the voltmeter.
At idle with no accessories on, you should have between 14.2 and 13.6 volts at the battery, depending on how hot the alternator is. There's a temperature compensation mechanism in the voltage regulator that drops the output as the temperature gets higher so as not to boil the battery as the engine bay heats up.
I would also love to know how much resistance you're seeing between any random metal part of the engine and the negative terminal on the battery.
You only mention front harness grounds which I assume are the two in the very front behind the bumper. What about the ground strap that runs from the engine to the chassis on the passenger side? What about the ground wire coming off the battery? It grounds to the chassis very close to the battery, then I'm not sure where it goes from there, but probably to the engine somewhere.
I'd say the clutch switch is a red herring as far as slow cranking is concerned. Either there is enough current to close the starter solenoid and get the starter motor turning, or there isn't. Starter motor speed is a function of load and available power. Clutch switch has nothing to do with load or how much power is available to the starter motor itself.
At idle with no accessories on, you should have between 14.2 and 13.6 volts at the battery, depending on how hot the alternator is. There's a temperature compensation mechanism in the voltage regulator that drops the output as the temperature gets higher so as not to boil the battery as the engine bay heats up.
I would also love to know how much resistance you're seeing between any random metal part of the engine and the negative terminal on the battery.
You only mention front harness grounds which I assume are the two in the very front behind the bumper. What about the ground strap that runs from the engine to the chassis on the passenger side? What about the ground wire coming off the battery? It grounds to the chassis very close to the battery, then I'm not sure where it goes from there, but probably to the engine somewhere.
I'd say the clutch switch is a red herring as far as slow cranking is concerned. Either there is enough current to close the starter solenoid and get the starter motor turning, or there isn't. Starter motor speed is a function of load and available power. Clutch switch has nothing to do with load or how much power is available to the starter motor itself.
This ^^ . but to be honest it sounds like half the starter motor winding are toast. It will pass an inspection but will crank about half speed. Had this happen on my big diesel tractor, after it got hot it would crank super slow.
09-09-13, 02:03 PM
#6
Sounds to me like it isn't charging. Time to bust out the voltmeter.
At idle with no accessories on, you should have between 14.2 and 13.6 volts at the battery, depending on how hot the alternator is. There's a temperature compensation mechanism in the voltage regulator that drops the output as the temperature gets higher so as not to boil the battery as the engine bay heats up.
I would also love to know how much resistance you're seeing between any random metal part of the engine and the negative terminal on the battery.
You only mention front harness grounds which I assume are the two in the very front behind the bumper. What about the ground strap that runs from the engine to the chassis on the passenger side? What about the ground wire coming off the battery? It grounds to the chassis very close to the battery, then I'm not sure where it goes from there, but probably to the engine somewhere.
I'd say the clutch switch is a red herring as far as slow cranking is concerned. Either there is enough current to close the starter solenoid and get the starter motor turning, or there isn't. Starter motor speed is a function of load and available power. Clutch switch has nothing to do with load or how much power is available to the starter motor itself.
At idle with no accessories on, you should have between 14.2 and 13.6 volts at the battery, depending on how hot the alternator is. There's a temperature compensation mechanism in the voltage regulator that drops the output as the temperature gets higher so as not to boil the battery as the engine bay heats up.
I would also love to know how much resistance you're seeing between any random metal part of the engine and the negative terminal on the battery.
You only mention front harness grounds which I assume are the two in the very front behind the bumper. What about the ground strap that runs from the engine to the chassis on the passenger side? What about the ground wire coming off the battery? It grounds to the chassis very close to the battery, then I'm not sure where it goes from there, but probably to the engine somewhere.
I'd say the clutch switch is a red herring as far as slow cranking is concerned. Either there is enough current to close the starter solenoid and get the starter motor turning, or there isn't. Starter motor speed is a function of load and available power. Clutch switch has nothing to do with load or how much power is available to the starter motor itself.
I'll have to pick up a voltmeter from Harbor Freight then.
I have two Grounding straps for the motor, one from the UIM to the fire-wall, and another from the rear housing to firewall. Both using the nice thick gauge speaker grounding cable. The Charge harness also has 2 grounding points that connect to the drivers side frame rail
09-09-13, 05:47 PM
#8
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Is the battery relocated if so .. is the wire gauge thick enough .. did you check over wire for nicks cuts etc..
.. battery terminals and connecters clean... seen some weird $#! T with corroded terminals and connectors
Just throwing out easy stuff...Its sometimes the dumb stuff that gets over looked
.. battery terminals and connecters clean... seen some weird $#! T with corroded terminals and connectors
Just throwing out easy stuff...Its sometimes the dumb stuff that gets over looked
09-10-13, 06:41 AM
#10
09-10-13, 09:42 AM
#11
I"ll definitely have to test this. Maybe I should replace it either way, so I can rule out a possible cause. Is it easy to replace or should I just look for a better condition Charge Harness?
Thanks guys!,... I really appreciate it.
- Ap
09-10-13, 09:54 AM
#12
Wastegate John
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That voltage seems a little low, what happens if you rev it to about 4000RPM? Does it rise to 14 volt or is is pretty consistently low?
DO NOT BUY A CHEAP MULTIMETER
I will say it again..
DO NOT BUY A CHEAP MULTIMETER
The reason is that when diagnosing electrical problems you have to be confidet your testing equipment is accurate.
I was testing a stator a few years ago on a outboard motor and was getting really erratic readings that would indicate a bad stator..... Until I realized the multimeter was reading a negative voltage! I knew this was not accurate because stators generate AC voltage and polarity does not matter ith AC voltage so the meter was junk. Would have saved a ton of time I had a good meter to start with. Now I have a Fluke.
DO NOT BUY A CHEAP MULTIMETER
I will say it again..
DO NOT BUY A CHEAP MULTIMETER
The reason is that when diagnosing electrical problems you have to be confidet your testing equipment is accurate.
I was testing a stator a few years ago on a outboard motor and was getting really erratic readings that would indicate a bad stator..... Until I realized the multimeter was reading a negative voltage! I knew this was not accurate because stators generate AC voltage and polarity does not matter ith AC voltage so the meter was junk. Would have saved a ton of time I had a good meter to start with. Now I have a Fluke.
09-10-13, 01:45 PM
#13
manny can you post some details of your alternator wiring? i'm wondering about the electrical plug on the back of the alternator in particular. also some pics of how you have the battery grounded back where it's mounted.
the "weird" thing you mentioned makes me think it's the alternator doing weird stuff.
keep in mind that the tester they have at autozone will pass an alternator if it only has the bad symptoms when it's HOT, but not when cold... do you have a local friend with an FD that will let you swap alternators to rule that out? when it's intermittent like this you really have to get creative. i worked at autozone for years when i was younger and had several alternators pass the test that would only act up when they got hot in an engine bay.
do you have an underdrive main pulley AND alternator pulley? if so, that could easily create a charging issue at idle and low RPMs before you even introduce the concept of having a borderline alternator.
and to rule out your battery wiring check the voltage across the two battery terminals AT THE BATTERY, then go up and check voltage from the big positive terminal on the alternator to ground (ground at the block, then ground to the frame). if you have lower voltage up at the alternator then you have high resistance in your big battery power wire. (this is unlikely, but it should be checked).
i always use 2ga welding cable when i do battery relocations and crimp/shrink my own terminals on (1/0 is probably preferable). welding cable is awesome for this application.
edit: this could also be related to your low power on the dyno. do you happen to have a datalog of your dyno runs that include voltage?
edit2: don't worry about renesisFD, you can use a $4 multimeter from harbor freight if you're just simply checking for low/high resistance and voltage that doesnt need to be accurate down to 6 decimal places
the "weird" thing you mentioned makes me think it's the alternator doing weird stuff.
keep in mind that the tester they have at autozone will pass an alternator if it only has the bad symptoms when it's HOT, but not when cold... do you have a local friend with an FD that will let you swap alternators to rule that out? when it's intermittent like this you really have to get creative. i worked at autozone for years when i was younger and had several alternators pass the test that would only act up when they got hot in an engine bay.
do you have an underdrive main pulley AND alternator pulley? if so, that could easily create a charging issue at idle and low RPMs before you even introduce the concept of having a borderline alternator.
and to rule out your battery wiring check the voltage across the two battery terminals AT THE BATTERY, then go up and check voltage from the big positive terminal on the alternator to ground (ground at the block, then ground to the frame). if you have lower voltage up at the alternator then you have high resistance in your big battery power wire. (this is unlikely, but it should be checked).
i always use 2ga welding cable when i do battery relocations and crimp/shrink my own terminals on (1/0 is probably preferable). welding cable is awesome for this application.
edit: this could also be related to your low power on the dyno. do you happen to have a datalog of your dyno runs that include voltage?
edit2: don't worry about renesisFD, you can use a $4 multimeter from harbor freight if you're just simply checking for low/high resistance and voltage that doesnt need to be accurate down to 6 decimal places
09-16-13, 11:49 AM
#14
^ Hey Thanks for the Reply. I've been working the past 6 days straight so lots to catch up on. I was able to drop my car off at a friends shop to get the charge pipe completed. On the way over there I was watching my Volt's while driving on my live gauges straight from the ecu and while Cruising at 3-4-5K rpm Readout is 14.1-14.3 while the car is running. I wasn't able to pick up a voltmeter yet but I'll most likely do that today. I have a spare starter and Alternator I can swap over but seems as if I should check everything with the Voltmeter first so I'm not wasting time swapping parts.
Here is a pic of the Battery relocation mounting point:
Here is a pic of the Battery relocation mounting point:
09-16-13, 12:29 PM
#16
Recovering Miataholic
Does this FD have the Fan Recall mod installed? If so, and if the fans usually run for 10 minutes after the engine is turned off, it's possible the alternator doesn't have enough time during driving to charge the battery fully. The fans use a lot of current... and no matter how good the battery/alternator system is, if the battery over time discharges more energy than it receives, eventually it will run down.
Our FD's battery had this problem with the fan recall mod because of minimal drive time coupled with fans always running after shutdown. I pulled out the fan mod circuitry, and switched the coolant temperature sensor to an FC sensor, which solved the problem.
Just a thought...
Our FD's battery had this problem with the fan recall mod because of minimal drive time coupled with fans always running after shutdown. I pulled out the fan mod circuitry, and switched the coolant temperature sensor to an FC sensor, which solved the problem.
Just a thought...
09-16-13, 01:36 PM
#17
Does this FD have the Fan Recall mod installed? If so, and if the fans usually run for 10 minutes after the engine is turned off, it's possible the alternator doesn't have enough time during driving to charge the battery fully. The fans use a lot of current... and no matter how good the battery/alternator system is, if the battery over time discharges more energy than it receives, eventually it will run down.
Our FD's battery had this problem with the fan recall mod because of minimal drive time coupled with fans always running after shutdown. I pulled out the fan mod circuitry, and switched the coolant temperature sensor to an FC sensor, which solved the problem.
Just a thought...
Our FD's battery had this problem with the fan recall mod because of minimal drive time coupled with fans always running after shutdown. I pulled out the fan mod circuitry, and switched the coolant temperature sensor to an FC sensor, which solved the problem.
Just a thought...
I do have the Touge Factory aftermarket pullies though... But I either i'm dumb and don't understand the charging system or somethings up... But they're smaller than OEM. The E-shaft pulley and the alternator are both smaller than oem.. so that would make them turn quicker per engine rotation than OEM/....making them charge quicker at lower rpm correct?
09-16-13, 02:22 PM
#18
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Make sure all your connections are tight. What you can do is have a friend crank the car over and check the battery voltage right at the starter. I have seen some starters only seeing half voltage due to voltage drop at bad crimps in connectors or loose connections.
Also use an amp clamp on the big wire coming off your alternator while the car is running and see how much current is flowing back from the alternator to your car. Then clamp your battery positive wire and check the difference see if your alternator is putting out enough to charge your battery and maintain the electrical systems. It definitely sounds like an alternator or battery connection problem though! good luck!
Also use an amp clamp on the big wire coming off your alternator while the car is running and see how much current is flowing back from the alternator to your car. Then clamp your battery positive wire and check the difference see if your alternator is putting out enough to charge your battery and maintain the electrical systems. It definitely sounds like an alternator or battery connection problem though! good luck!
09-16-13, 09:50 PM
#19
Just went and checked my battery with the volt meter. 12.2 with the kill switch off. Key on =12.1-12.2 V @ the alternator. Took a hunch...switched my starter for a spare unit I had . Cranked over high speed and fired. Turned it off, cranked it again... high speed crank once more..Started right up. Drove a mile down the road, came back..Turned it off, cranked it.. high speed turn over and fired right up. Problem solved? 95% sure it was the starter.
09-17-13, 11:05 AM
#21
Well it was actually a rebuilt OEM unit. The shop that did it I really do trust....but It was partially my fault. I had some solidified engine lube in the motor originally that made the motor seize up after a year and a half of sitting. To get the motor to turn I had to cycle Brake cleaner and W-D40 through the motor on and off over a 2 week period..... using the newly rebuilt starter to turn the motor.. More than a few times it was over 100 degrees F outside...and The starter smelled like it was burning up...and also had smoke coming from it. Weird part is that everyonce in a while it would turn exceptionally fast. Guess it's kind of common sense that it was the starter. But when I took it to get rebuilt again...the guy inspected it in like 2 min...and said it was just fine. Obviously, he was rushed and didn't inspect it fully. I'll take it back to him and have him rebuild it...afterall... it has a 2 year warranty on it =-) As for now...my oem spare starter is working just fine =-)
09-18-13, 07:35 AM
#22
Well it was actually a rebuilt OEM unit. The shop that did it I really do trust....but It was partially my fault. I had some solidified engine lube in the motor originally that made the motor seize up after a year and a half of sitting. To get the motor to turn I had to cycle Brake cleaner and W-D40 through the motor on and off over a 2 week period..... using the newly rebuilt starter to turn the motor.. More than a few times it was over 100 degrees F outside...and The starter smelled like it was burning up...and also had smoke coming from it. Weird part is that everyonce in a while it would turn exceptionally fast. Guess it's kind of common sense that it was the starter. But when I took it to get rebuilt again...the guy inspected it in like 2 min...and said it was just fine. Obviously, he was rushed and didn't inspect it fully. I'll take it back to him and have him rebuild it...afterall... it has a 2 year warranty on it =-) As for now...my oem spare starter is working just fine =-)
09-18-13, 09:52 AM
#23
Yea me too. The car starts just fine now. Sitting over night.....went to start it after work yesterday and the car cranked just fine... I have noticed that the light for the ignition key hole stays on though... Was thinking of just pulling the bulb. Anyone else experienced this?
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