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06-23-04, 10:32 PM
#102
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This isn't the device that KDR sells. I talked to Skip today about what happened with these plugs and he said the real device was far more than just disconnecting the trailing ignition but this guy only stole that part of the idea after signing the non disclosure agreement. Also legal action is being pursued against him as for which I am quite happy with because this guy is quite a liar and thief.
Jason, I'm sorry if this post is viewed as inflamatory because it certainly wasn't meant to be. RX-7 Store and KDR have been EXTREMELY good to me in building my car and it outrages me that this guy would steal an idea from KDR and then attempt to have you distribute it for him. I just felt our community should know a little more about the situation.
I am curious about your findings however. I only wish you could test the device in its entirety sp? so we could have completely unbiased results from it.
Jason, I'm sorry if this post is viewed as inflamatory because it certainly wasn't meant to be. RX-7 Store and KDR have been EXTREMELY good to me in building my car and it outrages me that this guy would steal an idea from KDR and then attempt to have you distribute it for him. I just felt our community should know a little more about the situation.
I am curious about your findings however. I only wish you could test the device in its entirety sp? so we could have completely unbiased results from it.
06-23-04, 11:17 PM
#105
I'm not callin BS, or saying anyone's lying etc...but I'm just trying to see things from a neutral prespective...
Do you think KDR would admit to it simply being just the plug if it was, considering they were the first to start the NDA on this product? And considering someone in one of the previous posts spoke to KDR and said they were going to raise the price on these devices soon enough?
My point is simple...KDR is selling them, so they can't be viewed as completely unbiased. Them saying "it's far more than just the plugs" could in fact mean that there is more to the product, in a tangible form (ie an actual device), or it could simply be a smart marketing way to say "he stole the product, but he definetly didn't steal how to properly tune for it, which is still our secret"
Just somethin to think about.
Do you think KDR would admit to it simply being just the plug if it was, considering they were the first to start the NDA on this product? And considering someone in one of the previous posts spoke to KDR and said they were going to raise the price on these devices soon enough?
My point is simple...KDR is selling them, so they can't be viewed as completely unbiased. Them saying "it's far more than just the plugs" could in fact mean that there is more to the product, in a tangible form (ie an actual device), or it could simply be a smart marketing way to say "he stole the product, but he definetly didn't steal how to properly tune for it, which is still our secret"
Just somethin to think about.
06-23-04, 11:25 PM
#106
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I see what you mean. But for some reason I do have a feeling it has to be atleast something more than just the plugs. I suppose I will find out soon enough if I decide the sign the nondisclosure and figure out what it really is.
Good food for thought though.
Good food for thought though.
06-23-04, 11:31 PM
#107
Originally posted by Black97VR4
I suppose I will find out soon enough if I decide the sign the nondisclosure and figure out what it really is.
I suppose I will find out soon enough if I decide the sign the nondisclosure and figure out what it really is.
It's a vicious circle I tell ya...
At $500 or $700 a pop, I'd kinda hope there was more to it too...
06-24-04, 01:53 AM
#108
One thing I'd like to put out there is that Skip Gorman, who apparently now works for KDR, is a very reputable and experienced individual. He's been around for donkey years (even mentioned by name in the Mazda Motorsports book, from the '80s) and I've met him personally. I even tried to get him and Rob Golden to join forces, but Skip was going through a family crisis (wife had cancer) and ended up moving to Idaho...and now he's back East, from what I hear. If he developed these plugs, it likely has a sound basis. However, it's very possibly not the "magic bullet" people seem to think it is. Disabling the Trailing ignition is probably a part of a larger tuning scheme; not the whole answer. At least, I hope that's the case because I see little merit to the plugs themselves. But, when therory and practice conflict...always go with practice! If Skip has been having sucess using plugs like these, I will put my speculation in my back pocket and give him the benefit of a doubt. He has earned it.
When Mr. Hyde contacted me in April, I checked out his web site and noted a mention of Skip's involvment but no details on the "device". From this, I inquired to the status and well being of Skip and was assured all was well (wife apparently pulled through the cancer ordeal fine) and that Mr. Hyde would put me in contact with him, so we could talk shop. Obviously, nothing happened and then Mr. hyde just pissed me off with his brazen theft of my artwork. I am very pleased to hear that he may not really be connected to Skip Gorman! I feel bad for Skip that his plug idea is possibly getting ripped off, but good that he is likely not associated with the scumbag in question.
If there is merit to the plug (again, not a "device") it is probably as part of a larger tuning scheme. And if there is any justice in the community, absolutely no support will be given to a rip-off product that ignores the larger picture, not to mention all the complexities of implimentation.
When Mr. Hyde contacted me in April, I checked out his web site and noted a mention of Skip's involvment but no details on the "device". From this, I inquired to the status and well being of Skip and was assured all was well (wife apparently pulled through the cancer ordeal fine) and that Mr. Hyde would put me in contact with him, so we could talk shop. Obviously, nothing happened and then Mr. hyde just pissed me off with his brazen theft of my artwork. I am very pleased to hear that he may not really be connected to Skip Gorman! I feel bad for Skip that his plug idea is possibly getting ripped off, but good that he is likely not associated with the scumbag in question.
If there is merit to the plug (again, not a "device") it is probably as part of a larger tuning scheme. And if there is any justice in the community, absolutely no support will be given to a rip-off product that ignores the larger picture, not to mention all the complexities of implimentation.
06-24-04, 07:42 AM
#109
Some you guys have some issues you need to deal with.
I have talked with Skip a few times about these plugs. At the time he wouldnt tell me what they were because he said once everyone knew, they could go out a copy it. He said it was that simple. Thats all this "device" is, a couple of plugs. Now I know why Skip was reluctant to market them to the community.
I have talked with Skip a few times about these plugs. At the time he wouldnt tell me what they were because he said once everyone knew, they could go out a copy it. He said it was that simple. Thats all this "device" is, a couple of plugs. Now I know why Skip was reluctant to market them to the community.
06-24-04, 11:21 AM
#110
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Originally posted by Jason
Some you guys have some issues you need to deal with.
I have talked with Skip a few times about these plugs. At the time he wouldnt tell me what they were because he said once everyone knew, they could go out a copy it. He said it was that simple. Thats all this "device" is, a couple of plugs. Now I know why Skip was reluctant to market them to the community.
Some you guys have some issues you need to deal with.
I have talked with Skip a few times about these plugs. At the time he wouldnt tell me what they were because he said once everyone knew, they could go out a copy it. He said it was that simple. Thats all this "device" is, a couple of plugs. Now I know why Skip was reluctant to market them to the community.
And if this is not an official unvailing, then they had better hurry up, cause if people can't buy them, they will copy them.
Last edited by radkins; 06-24-04 at 11:25 AM.
06-24-04, 12:04 PM
#111
Originally posted by radkins
If the cat is officially out of the bag why doesn't KDR or Skip come forward and tell what info they have about their experience with them on a technical level.
If the cat is officially out of the bag why doesn't KDR or Skip come forward and tell what info they have about their experience with them on a technical level.
C'mon now...right now their experience w/ the plugs is prob all they have left to hold onto (if there is no other tangible device used in conjuction w/ the plugs). And if I were them, I'd hold onto that info for as long as I could, cuz that's why people would come to ME, vs going elsewhere. It's basic competition. That's a no-brainer.
It's only a matter of time before Jason and possibly others figure out the tuning secrets of these plugs that make them work so well, to the point that KDR has a lot of faith in them. So until then, I'd think KDR would try and capitalize to the max by keeping their secrets...it's only logical.
06-24-04, 12:19 PM
#112
No it's not Turbo'd
Captitalize on what !? That They turned some bolts on a lathe !? This is the part that I have troubble with, so at some point someone like Batman's friend comes up to skip, or wheomever and said "I've run a lot better on the track today !" They look under the hood and see that they forgot to hook up the trailing ignition, in wonder, as to how such a thing was possible they started experementing.
What I don't understand is what R&D am I paying $500 for !? I think it's a way to try and make lots of money real fast, untill someone else does duplicate it, and saturates, as well levels out the Supply and Demand curve to bring the price within spec.
I've seen a couple of threads implying that if everybody were to just ask $26 k for their FD, the value would go up. Well as well all know it doesn't work like that since when you're trying to sell it most likely you're tired of paying insurance etc.. to keep it, and want to get rid of it for as much as you can as fast as you can. So for the same reason you can't sell $20k FD's for $26K you can't sell $5 bolts + $20 labor for $500.00 it won't work for long...
What I don't understand is what R&D am I paying $500 for !? I think it's a way to try and make lots of money real fast, untill someone else does duplicate it, and saturates, as well levels out the Supply and Demand curve to bring the price within spec.
I've seen a couple of threads implying that if everybody were to just ask $26 k for their FD, the value would go up. Well as well all know it doesn't work like that since when you're trying to sell it most likely you're tired of paying insurance etc.. to keep it, and want to get rid of it for as much as you can as fast as you can. So for the same reason you can't sell $20k FD's for $26K you can't sell $5 bolts + $20 labor for $500.00 it won't work for long...
06-24-04, 12:49 PM
#113
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Originally posted by FDNewbie
Nothing specifically toward KDR, but you expect them to come out and basically tell their competitor (Jason) how the plugs work and how to make money off of it? lol
C'mon now...right now their experience w/ the plugs is prob all they have left to hold onto (if there is no other tangible device used in conjuction w/ the plugs). And if I were them, I'd hold onto that info for as long as I could, cuz that's why people would come to ME, vs going elsewhere. It's basic competition. That's a no-brainer.
It's only a matter of time before Jason and possibly others figure out the tuning secrets of these plugs that make them work so well, to the point that KDR has a lot of faith in them. So until then, I'd think KDR would try and capitalize to the max by keeping their secrets...it's only logical.
Nothing specifically toward KDR, but you expect them to come out and basically tell their competitor (Jason) how the plugs work and how to make money off of it? lol
C'mon now...right now their experience w/ the plugs is prob all they have left to hold onto (if there is no other tangible device used in conjuction w/ the plugs). And if I were them, I'd hold onto that info for as long as I could, cuz that's why people would come to ME, vs going elsewhere. It's basic competition. That's a no-brainer.
It's only a matter of time before Jason and possibly others figure out the tuning secrets of these plugs that make them work so well, to the point that KDR has a lot of faith in them. So until then, I'd think KDR would try and capitalize to the max by keeping their secrets...it's only logical.
06-24-04, 01:35 PM
#114
Originally posted by radkins
I guess I don't uderstand the relationship between Skip and RX-7 Store then. I was under the impression it was a distributor/installer type arrangement. I guess I need to go back and re-read all these damn threads.
I guess I don't uderstand the relationship between Skip and RX-7 Store then. I was under the impression it was a distributor/installer type arrangement. I guess I need to go back and re-read all these damn threads.
I'm sure Jason will correct me. Sorry if I implied/assumed something incorrect...
06-24-04, 01:44 PM
#116
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I think the relation is that PG stole the idea from skip and now the RX-7 is selling it. I"m not sure how much of that is true but its just what i have be reading.
06-24-04, 01:47 PM
#117
Originally posted by c00lduke
I think the relation is that PG stole the idea from skip and now the RX-7 is selling it. I"m not sure how much of that is true but its just what i have be reading.
I think the relation is that PG stole the idea from skip and now the RX-7 is selling it. I"m not sure how much of that is true but its just what i have be reading.
06-24-04, 02:45 PM
#119
At this time Im not selling the plugs. I have talked with Skip in the past about selling them but we never worked that out. Steven asked me if I wanted to test a set and I said yea.
I wouldnt sell these if there are legal issues between Skip and Steven. I dont want to get caught up in that mess.
I wouldnt expect skip to post or let us know about his plugs. He knew that if he came on here and said they are only plugs he would get raped just like Steven has. He wouldnt be able to charge $500 a shot if that happened.
Jason
I wouldnt sell these if there are legal issues between Skip and Steven. I dont want to get caught up in that mess.
I wouldnt expect skip to post or let us know about his plugs. He knew that if he came on here and said they are only plugs he would get raped just like Steven has. He wouldnt be able to charge $500 a shot if that happened.
Jason
06-24-04, 02:48 PM
#120
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Does anyone know why the NDA is still in place for the 60 some odd people that have been running these for a while? It seems stupid to be held under a NDA when the cat's already out of the bag and people want some raw test data and possibly some long-term tests....
06-24-04, 02:53 PM
#121
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
Originally posted by Jason
At this time Im not selling the plugs. I have talked with Skip in the past about selling them but we never worked that out. Steven asked me if I wanted to test a set and I said yea.
I wouldnt sell these if there are legal issues between Skip and Steven. I dont want to get caught up in that mess.
I wouldnt expect skip to post or let us know about his plugs. He knew that if he came on here and said they are only plugs he would get raped just like Steven has. He wouldnt be able to charge $500 a shot if that happened.
Jason
At this time Im not selling the plugs. I have talked with Skip in the past about selling them but we never worked that out. Steven asked me if I wanted to test a set and I said yea.
I wouldnt sell these if there are legal issues between Skip and Steven. I dont want to get caught up in that mess.
I wouldnt expect skip to post or let us know about his plugs. He knew that if he came on here and said they are only plugs he would get raped just like Steven has. He wouldnt be able to charge $500 a shot if that happened.
Jason
06-24-04, 02:56 PM
#122
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*seems* is the key word...there is STILL no hard data on that, and if people would start talking and enlighten the community it would help. To be honest, even if it does include tuning from KDR (which is generally in the ballpark of $300-400) thats still 1-200 for bolts. I guess you could list that under R&D for the tuning technique though...i dunno but $450-500 for proprietary tuning sounds a HELLUVA lot better than $500 bolts
06-24-04, 03:00 PM
#123
Originally posted by matty
as mentioned ten times....it isnt only plugs. It seems like its tunning too. Tunning that has been researched and proven to yield a benefit.
as mentioned ten times....it isnt only plugs. It seems like its tunning too. Tunning that has been researched and proven to yield a benefit.
When tuning for these plugs you need an EGT and wideband. Other than that there isnt any big secret.
Jason
06-24-04, 03:01 PM
#124
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
Originally posted by teamstealth
*seems* is the key word...there is STILL no hard data on that, and if people would start talking and enlighten the community it would help. To be honest, even if it does include tuning from KDR (which is generally in the ballpark of $300-400) thats still 1-200 for bolts. I guess you could list that under R&D for the tuning technique though...i dunno but $450-500 for proprietary tuning sounds a HELLUVA lot better than $500 bolts
*seems* is the key word...there is STILL no hard data on that, and if people would start talking and enlighten the community it would help. To be honest, even if it does include tuning from KDR (which is generally in the ballpark of $300-400) thats still 1-200 for bolts. I guess you could list that under R&D for the tuning technique though...i dunno but $450-500 for proprietary tuning sounds a HELLUVA lot better than $500 bolts
06-24-04, 03:02 PM
#125
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
Originally posted by Jason
I think Im the one that initially said it was tuning. Im running these on my car right now and have done very little tuning.
When tuning for these plugs you need an EGT and wideband. Other than that there isnt any big secret.
Jason
I think Im the one that initially said it was tuning. Im running these on my car right now and have done very little tuning.
When tuning for these plugs you need an EGT and wideband. Other than that there isnt any big secret.
Jason
Additionaly they have been doing dyno testing...and development work. how can u do development work for a damn plug. I would imagine thats the tunning part.
Last edited by matty; 06-24-04 at 03:05 PM.