Tem120

iTrader: (5)

lol

have you seen any with a rew swapped into them ? and still down by 5 seconds??? wow .

WANKfactor

iTrader: (1)

Japanese cars were being built to the 276ps limit back then. Fd, supra, gtr, ect all 276ps

neit_jnf

iTrader: (17)

hmm all aluminum 12X keg should weight what? 150 lbs?

lets see, 2002 RX-7 was 2750 lbs 280hp, lets say they come out with the new one at 2600 lbs 250 hp it should be comparable no?

competitive with Genesis, 370Z, EVO, STi? maybe a 3-rotor 350hp at 2600 lbs

fmzambon

The real question is: does a new Rx-7 need to be faster than the FD to be worthy of the Rx-7 name?

If so, given that it's extremely unlikely that a new 7 can be lighter than the FD (see the weight progression of the Miata for a comparison, including the speculated 2400lbs weight for the ND), then the other way to reach the goal is more power. Suspension and chassis improvements can help as well, but the big improvement can only come from the engine.

This means that 250hp would not be enough to improve on the FD. If that 250hp figure has any truth to it, then it can only work as an entry level engine option to a more powerful engine option, maybe a 3 rotor.

Andrea.

Montego

iTrader: (1)

yeah pretty much... So I wouldn't call it a HP war


No not particularly. *but* in order to maintain it's aura it needs to remain competitive with the same type of cars that it competed in the early 90's. At 250 HP that is not happening

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

Been on track with several all out RX8 race cars and a basic single turbo FD destroys it by over 5 seconds a lap at VIR.

VIR looks like a pretty highspeed course where grip and power are going to far outweigh handling.

If you look at the course records for stock cars at VIR the above is pretty apparent. A Ford GT500 is 6 second faster than a Lotus Exige S. Do you think the Mustang handles better?

Yes it's a really nice handling car but no it's not going to out perform the RX7 unless it's a tube framed car with a 3 rotor. Now tube the FD and put a 3 rotor in it

I don't understand this bias.
Power is the easiest thing to correct in any car, and the 8 can fit more wheel/tire than the FD, so grip will be there. Weight is the biggest factor I see.

Been on track with several all out RX8 race cars and a basic single turbo FD destroys it by over 5 seconds a lap at VIR.

"All out race cars" have to follow rules so I don't doubt they would be slower. What race series does a single turbo FD fit into? Time attack? Well, time attack cars were faster around Eastern Creek than the V-8 supercars last year...

I guess V-8 supercars are slow too; a tuned 240SX on DOT tires is faster.


I do understand your experiences, real fast RX-8 are a rare thing. However, what uncorrectable aspects of the RX-8 do you find that keep it from achieving the FDs potential?

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

250 hp is crap. The Mazdaspeed Miata should have that. And a 1.2 liter N/A motor is going to have **** for torque, and won't be very moddable vs. a TT 1.3.

RX8's are heavier, bigger, and taller than FDs, so I'm not convinced their ultimate handling potential is the same even if they're easier to drive for most.

And yes, a new RX7 needs to be faster than a stock FD (otherwise, why bother), and really should be similar to the modern iterations of its traditional competitors.

neit_jnf

iTrader: (17)

US spec Alpha 4C will weigh 2650 lbs, has 240 hp and is considered a mini supercar...

If Mazda comes out with a similar weight/power RX-7 it's crap??

DriftDreamzSS

iTrader: (4)

With 27 less hp and substantially less power potential than the most recent rx-7, series 8 FD's yeah I would say that's crap.

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

It's a "mini-supercar" because it's Italian and looks like it's actual supercar brother the 8C. On a performance basis, it's crap. A base FD with a stainless exhaust and a CF hood weighs about 2650.

It would be passable, if it were already out or out last year, but in two-three years? Please.

RockLobster

iTrader: (7)

The most fun i have EVER had in a car was in a properly set up spec miata, on-track, on Hoosiers. 1.6L putting maybe 120hp to the pavement.

I want that same feeling in a car with a stubby little 3-rotor making at least 1 HP for ever 10 lbs curb weight...

I won't buy a "sports" car over 3000lbs, i dont care how much HP it has.

My speed6 feels like a complete whale compared to either of my rx-7s...which it is...

RockLobster

iTrader: (7)

bs....

t-von

iTrader: (8)

Actually it would be a slight improvement when compared to the series 6 fd. Don't forget that the fd was twin turbocharged. You put a renesis in an Fd and you will lose 100lbs. NA is far lighter(especially with an all aluminum block). Engine weight wise, even an all aluminum 13b short block is 110lbs so a I'm guessing 100lbs for the new 1.2L. The only real thing you lose is the torque from going from turbo to NA.

Anyways I'm excited to see the ball rolling again on this. Just because this "unofficial" announcement claims a 250 hp 1.2l doesn't mean that Mazda may not also include a 1.6L 300hp as an option (ala 1st gen model Rx7's). I've always said we need multiple rotary displacements in the market and not just the one offering. Anything 3 rotor needs to be built off the larger 16x design if Mazda wants to be taken serious and compete with the big dogs.

t-von

iTrader: (8)

Not really. Have you not weighed a full factory exhaust and compared it to full aftermarket stainless? The weight differences are massive. The base stripped down model fd weighs about 2,750lbs. You can easily drop the weight into the high 2,600's by removing the boat ankor full factory exhaust and replacing it with a full stainless setup.

MisterX

A 3 rotor turbocharged rotary putting 400 hp to the wheels is NOT partaking in horsepower wars; those wars have left it behind years ago with 500 & 600 + hp AMGs, ZR1s, GT-Rs, Lambos, Macs, etc.

Where in the automotive bible is it written that medium hp AND a lightweight car are mutually exclusive criteria?

Spirit-RE

iTrader: (25)

This. This is why its correct name should be the RX-9.

I'm all for a miata chassis under 2600 with a 250hp rotary. But please don't call it an RX-7.

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

That's what I keep asking. How come as soon as I say "give it power" people scream, "no, heavy cars suck!"?

And FWIW, a 250 hp Miata-based simple car is an "RX-5" not an RX-7 anymore.

WANKfactor

iTrader: (1)

I think you mean rx6. An rx5 would be a butt- ugly "sports luxury" tourer. We've already had them in the 70's. Mazda went straight to the rx7 moniker for their new pure sports car, the SA, skipping the "6" to disassociate from the rx5.
A light weight N/A 250hp car could be pretty good, I cant see why it shouldnt be called an rx7. The Sa is what started it all. It was a great car.

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

Enough said. Real fast RX8s are a rare thing and in my book even fast RX8s are rare thing LOL

Yes anything can be made fast including the RX8

Bwarrrrrp

The flavour of the month on /Drive at the moment is how the price of air cooled porsches are just going up and up. Clearly some people like the idea of a simple bare bones drivers car. If porsche re-released a small 3L flat 6 911 that weighed 1000 kg, they would sell the **** out of them.

It would be easy enough to reduce the weight of the fd. KISS. A simple Al monocoque construction should go a long way to helping that. Steel is heavy. The biggest barrier to weight is safety ratings unfortunately, but there are ways around it.

That's an issue for you yank blokes far more than it is for us over in Ozland. We never compared the rx7 to the vette because we didn't have the vette. Back in early 90's it could compete with the vette, because let's face it, it wasn't the best engineered thing on the road. 20 years has changed things somewhat, and now the vette is far more on the potential it should have had back at the 5L v8 stage.

Here, we compare it against other Jap marques and baselineish german cars. It can't be compared with the M3 anymore because that has become a monster but it should be pushing M1 territory. Mazda is known for making little sporty cars. They don't have to produce a 400 hp whatever to maintain that reputation.

At the end of the day, if people really aren't happy with the power output, stick an LS in and be done with it.
V8 supercars ARE slow. They claim 600 hp, but I don't know whose arsehole they pulled that out of, 5L NA, 2 valve, 10:1 compression ratio, 7000 rpm rev limit. They'll be lucky to be pushing 450 imo. 1400 kg, which is about 200 kg lighter than stock is where they get the extra speed from. GT3 cars wipe the floor with them, they are far quicker cars. V8's are not that great to watch either, the support races are much more entertaining.

fmzambon

That's true, but there are other factors at work here, mainly 20+ years of ever stricter crash standards. These add lots of weight. so, despite the much lighter powertrain, I'd be utterly surprised if a new Rx-7 gets even close to the FD's weight. Unless they build a dedicated 2 seater, and not a 2+2, as they did with the FD (even though the rear seats were not fitted in many markets).

Again, I agree on the multiple displacement part, but having a 1.2 and a 1.6 is a nonsense: totally different engine geometries, thus twice the development and manufacturing cost. A 2 rotor NA and 2 rotor turbo is FAR more likely, and a 2 and 3 rotor NA is even more likely IMHO, due to much more parts commonality.

Andrea.

fmzambon

It heavily depends on the price IMHO. Even if a car is lots of fun, no one will buy it if it costs too much (I'm not referring to the Porsche here, just making a general statement).

Andrea.

ZDan

Because adding power adds weight. Turbo(s) and intercoolers add weight, additional rotor or rotors add weight, more power requires stronger diff and trans gears adding weight and detracting from tight "snick-snick" shifting. More power also requires bigger tires to handle putting the power down and bigger brakes to whoa the car, which requires bigger wheel diameters, so more unsprung weight (yuk!)
More power is going to weigh more, PERIOD.
And of course it will cost a lot more as well.

Now I know you're going to argue that they should make it all out of carbon fiber and beryllium alloys to keep it light, but the weight argument still applies. Same tech, materials and type of construction, the more powerful car will be heavier.
To me, that would be *more* of an RX-7 (and less of a Corvette!).
Of course it they were to make a higher-powered turbo or multi-rotor version, that would be great! Having a more real-world-oriented lower-priced base model that would easily have enough power on the street wouldn't detract from that. Except maybe to those who can't stomach the idea that the proles should have access to a lower-spec variant!

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

Says the guy who drives an LS converted FD that does 0-184?! Why did you do that conversion, and how were you able to do it without adding a ton of weight to handle the extra power?

Power may add a LITTLE more weight in some cases—but a Supra Getrag, for example, handles a TON of power, but isn't really much heavier than an FD trans, and it shifts beautifully and has an extra gear. The Cobra diff a lot of people use in LS/FD conversions doesn't really add weight. Bigger wheels weigh a little more, they also provide more grip in more ways than simply handling power, and if they are nice forged wheels, again, it's minimal.

Honestly, The difference in weight between a car that makes 250 hp vs a car that makes 350 or even 400 is MINIMAL. If you're looking at a target horsepower/weight ration, like say, 7:1, adding 50 hp will NOT automatically require the addition of 350 lbs of support.




In the real world, they already make the Miata. I'm certainly not against a hardtop rotary powered "RX-5", with 200-something HP, but I'm not likely to buy it, and I can't figure out why you would either after driving your LS/FD. I can't figure out why the buyer of that car takes a chance on a rotary, when you could slap a supercharger on the regular Miata motor. I also can't figure out why we're waiting until 2016 with bated breath for THAT. Should've built that 10 years ago!

The model (RX7) has moved on from where it was as the FB, to the FC and then the FD, as did most of it's competitors. Look at the new Supra Concept. I think it would be silly to build an RX7 that's a downgrade. I'm not sure how this became an "elitist" thing in your mind—performance standards have GONE UP, it's that simple.

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

As someone else said if Mazda builds another RX7 that goes after the NA BRZ but gets stomped by the Mustang they have waved a white flag for sure.

I'll keep my FD

However build a high revving 3 rotor and I'm in like FLYNN!