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The RX-7 confirmed to be in the pipeline for 2017---RX-Vision Unveil!!

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Old 02-21-17, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by BLUE TII View Post
Hydrogen has an octane rating of like 130.

You want 300hp on California 91 **** or fill up on "better than race gas" Hydrogen 130 and make 450hp and save the planet at the same time?

----

neit_jnf
Octane rating alone cannot be used to estimate power potential. The H2/Gas dual fuel RX-8 made about 110 bhp on H2 compared to 210 bhp on premium gasoline.



Yes, but it didn't have the turbo.
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Old 02-21-17, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by BLUE TII View Post
But the Hydrogen Rx-8 was not the "normal" Rx-8. It was a special model. The regular car had no hydrogen equipment at all. I'm not even sure if one could walk into a Mazda dealer and order an Hydrogen Rx-8 or whether it was only built for selected customers.

It was not available to the public at large, mainly because there was no Hydrogen fuel pumps available to fill up at.
It wasn't new technology for Mazda. They first started working with Hydrogen REs in 1991 with the HR-X concept shown at the Tokyo Motor Show and then again in 1993 with the HR-X2.

1991 Mazda HR-X, 1993 Mazda HR-X2 - Rotary Engine Wiki

The dual fuel Hydrogen Primacy RE hybrid minivan has been available for lease in Japan since 2009.

MAZDA: Hydrogen Vehicles | Environmental Technology

The difference now is that Tokyo and California have both mandated/standardized the number of Hydrogen fueling stations along with a 2020 schedule.

If Mazda wants to do the same for the next Rx, that is release a special model that can run on hydrogen, that's perfectly fine. But installing the hydrogen fuel system on ALL rotary cars would be useless IMHO. As I said, for 99% of the users it would just be dead weight to carry around.


Or it could be the feature that sells the new rotary to those who would have otherwise spent their $100k on a Tesla instead of the new RX

The new RX is probably going to be a California car anyways like the FD was if the price is $60-70K.

Hydrogen has an octane rating of like 130.

You want 300hp on California 91 **** or fill up on "better than race gas" Hydrogen 130 and make 450hp and save the planet at the same time?
It's not like you can get hydrogen at every gas station today either. It's certainly more available than it was 10 or 15 years ago, but for many people (the vast majority) it's simply not an option. Not yet at least.

For 100k Tesla gives you around 700hp. I doubt that the next Rx will get anywhere close to that figure. And if it's performance is significantly lower while being priced close to the model S, why would an eco-wealthy get an hydrogen Rx over a Tesla? Maybe for the title of "first hydrogen powered sports car"? Could be, but relying on that to generate a meaningful number of sales is extremely risky. It's completely uncharted territory, no one knows what kind of demand there could be for such a car.

Honda FCX Clarity
Toyota Mirai

It doesn't look like hydrogen cars are setting the auto market on fire... yet.
In comparison the Tesla Model S does much better:

Tesla Model S

Given this data, IMHO it would be far better to focus on the conventional (gas fueled) car and then, maybe, offer a hydrogen powered version as an option. If the hydrogen version catches on, then by all means run with it. If it flops, then no big deal.

Also, what about the range on hydrogen? True, it would be dual-fueled so if the H2 runs out one could simply switch to gas, but if I recall correctly the hydrogen Rx-8 didn't go very far on an H2 tank. I doubt that a new car could do massively better in this regard.
Even if H2 filling stations were everywhere, having to continually fill up would be another point against it.

Hydrogen is only a few years away... and judging by the past, it will be for many more years

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Old 02-21-17, 11:30 AM
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Remember, it is also possible to run the engine on gasoline for the power density and then inject Hydrogen on top for the octane.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_fuel_enhancement

Hydrogen enhancement can aid in gasoline lean burn (which the rotaries are good at as well) while reducing the resulting NOx emissions of lean burn.

So, perhaps that is why Mazda has returned to lean burn rich pocket swirl tactics with the rotary.

Big hydrogen injector on the new lean burn swirl rotor-



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Old 02-21-17, 11:46 AM
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I could understand your consternation if the car was somehow dependent on Hydrogen to function normally.

Hydrogen fueling stations are all over the San Francisco Bay Area and Los Angeles region and more coming.

This is where people live who would buy $60-70k rotary car.

This is where people live who bought the FD RX-7.

Stations Map | California Fuel Cell Partnership

Besides California, Tokyo is an even bigger market for the car and "Hydrogen Society" is real.

Note a japan.go.jp website-
Tokyo Aims to Realize "Hydrogen Society" by 2020 / JapanGov - The Government of Japan -
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Old 02-21-17, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by BLUE TII View Post


I could understand your consternation if the car was somehow dependent on Hydrogen to function normally.

Hydrogen fueling stations are all over the San Francisco Bay Area and Los Angeles region and more coming.

This is where people live who would buy $60-70k rotary car.

This is where people live who bought the FD RX-7.

Stations Map | California Fuel Cell Partnership

Besides California, Tokyo is an even bigger market for the car and "Hydrogen Society" is real.

Note a japan.go.jp website-
Tokyo Aims to Realize "Hydrogen Society" by 2020 / JapanGov - The Government of Japan -
48 stations for almost 40 million people (the population of California). That's a long queue if everyone decided to fill up at the same time
Seriously, there's still a LONG way to go before H2 becomes practical. I think that it will happen, but not before 2030 IMHO. Unless we are talking about very small areas, as you say.

By 2030 the next Rx will be out of production, so that leaves us with the "small areas" part. Does this mean that Mazda should design a car thinking only about San Fransisco, Los Angeles and Tokyo buyers? The rest of the world (that would generate at the very least 90% of the total sales)? Who cares!
That doesn't make sense IMHO, designing a product so that its cost increases just because a minority of its users MAY use the dual fuel capacity, while EVERYONE pays for it.

Ok, the car would be dual fuel, so it could also run on gas and it would not be dependent on the availability of hydrogen to function. But then what's the point of giving everyone an H2 fuel system if it's understood that the vast majority of the end users will only ever run the car on gas? It would just be a waste, as I said dead weight. Worse, dead weight one has to pay for.


The only approach that may work IMHO is the one that was adopted with the Rx-8: a base model that is gas-only and a special hydrogen/gas dual fuel vehicle. Maybe this time the dual fuel version could be orderable at any dealer, but apart from that it would be Rx-8 hydrogen encore.
That could work, but then where's the innovation over the Rx-8? The fact that it would be orderable at any dealership while the hydrogen Rx-8 was not?


As for the "This is where people live who would buy $60-70k rotary car." part, I see here that less than 21% of all FDs in the USA are in California. Maybe it was higher when they were new, I don't know
A quick look here indicates that more than 40000 FDs were produced in total (I'm not sure how many were manufactured in 1992, so I didn't count any for that year). So, putting those numbers together, about 5% of all FD's are in California. Some that were sold may no longer exist, but still that's a farly small percentage of the total.

Also California is the state with the highest population in the USA. Indeed the two states with the next highest population (Texas and Florida) come in 2nd and 3rd place in the FD registration numbers list as well. So if one were to correct those numbers to calculate "FDs pro capita", then the difference with other states may be even smaller.
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Old 02-21-17, 11:15 PM
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Originally Posted by fmzambon View Post
As for the "This is where people live who would buy $60-70k rotary car." part, I see here that less than 21% of all FDs in the USA are in California. Maybe it was higher when they were new, I don't know
A quick look here indicates that more than 40000 FDs were produced in total (I'm not sure how many were manufactured in 1992, so I didn't count any for that year). So, putting those numbers together, about 5% of all FD's are in California. Some that were sold may no longer exist, but still that's a farly small percentage of the total.

Also California is the state with the highest population in the USA. Indeed the two states with the next highest population (Texas and Florida) come in 2nd and 3rd place in the FD registration numbers list as well. So if one were to correct those numbers to calculate "FDs pro capita", then the difference with other states may be even smaller.
i have heard that Mazda sold something like half or two thirds of their cars in the 80's in California. i've never seen sales by region, so take this with a grain of salt, and then go watch the movie commando, see how many Rx7's are in it? thats how it used to be, they were everywhere

now i see more TR3's driving around than Rx7's... and well the bay area is ground zero for Tesla, and those things are everywhere. the old CEO Martin Eberhard used to have a Mazda 3, and we used to service it.
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Old 02-24-17, 02:01 AM
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Originally Posted by j9fd3s View Post
i have heard that Mazda sold something like half or two thirds of their cars in the 80's in California. i've never seen sales by region, so take this with a grain of salt, and then go watch the movie commando, see how many Rx7's are in it? thats how it used to be, they were everywhere

now i see more TR3's driving around than Rx7's... and well the bay area is ground zero for Tesla, and those things are everywhere. the old CEO Martin Eberhard used to have a Mazda 3, and we used to service it.
I don't know if this information would still apply to a new Rx.
For starters the 80's were 30 years ago, so the situation could have changed somewhat since then (but I don't live in the USA, so I don't have direct experience). And also, in the 80's the FD was not out yet. There were FBs and FCs, which were much cheaper cars to buy. The situation might be different for an inflation-adjusted-FD-priced car today.
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Old 02-24-17, 10:28 AM
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FD was largely developed in California for the California market.

Whether it was testing on Spunky Canyon Road, Button Willow or the last second unibody changes that happened after a stretch on the LA freeway expansion joints.

Wu-Huang Chin's Mazda Research of America, Irvine California (MRA) body design was chosen for the shape, the engineering was done in Japan, chassis basics were hammered out on the Miyoshi testing grounds and the refinement came in California.

California shaped the FD like the Nurburgring shaped later cars that bear "Nurburgring Edition" nomenclature on top of giving it its original form.

Remember, California is the worlds 6th largest economy behind USA (as a whole), China, Japan, Germany and UK.
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Old 02-27-17, 01:50 PM
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Wu-Huang Chin's Mazda Research of America, Irvine California (MRA) body design was chosen for the shape, the engineering was done in Japan, chassis basics were hammered out on the Miyoshi testing grounds and the refinement came in California.
My impression has always been that Tom Matano was at least a (and maybe the) lead body designer on the FD.
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Old 02-27-17, 03:08 PM
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No, but I believe Tom Matano was the department head.

Wu-Huang Chin penned the MRA design which was chosen to be the next RX-7 with the caveat that they incorporated some of features of the MC (Mazda Corporate headquarters, Hiroshima) concept.

Wu-Huang Chin had really beautiful organic themed designs. He is known as the principal designer of the FD.

Tom Matano is best known as the father of the Miata (which Wu-Huang Chin also worked on).

https://www.carart.us/products.aspx?...=2&menu=C12931

https://www.carart.us/Products.aspx?...=1&menu=C12943

http://articles.latimes.com/1995-01-...omotive-design

From the Peterson museum's Super Car Sunday (FD prototype featured)-
http://www.greaserco.com/work/superc...rson-car-musem

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Old 04-21-17, 09:31 AM
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Deep down I want the body to be EXACTLY the same as the FDs. I absolutely resent all the speculation of how the body will look.
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Old 04-21-17, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Vito Aliberti View Post
Deep down I want the body to be EXACTLY the same as the FDs. I absolutely resent all the speculation of how the body will look.
I heard they released one with the EXACT same body as an FD way back in like late '92
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Old 04-21-17, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by 00SPEC View Post
I heard they released one with the EXACT same body as an FD way back in like late '92
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Old 04-21-17, 01:23 PM
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He is saying "Lucky you, Mazda has built many of your dream RX-7 already."
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Old 04-22-17, 09:58 AM
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Do you guys still think a RX car will be coming out in... lets say the next 3 years?
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Old 04-22-17, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Moe Greene View Post
Do you guys still think a RX car will be coming out in... lets say the next 3 years?
I'm pessimistically optimistic

My fingers are crossed
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Old 04-22-17, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Vito Aliberti View Post
Deep down I want the body to be EXACTLY the same as the FDs. I absolutely resent all the speculation of how the body will look.
the FD is good enough to have been like a 911, where Mazda could have just kept making it forever.

there are several reasons they didn't though. firstly, the FD came out right when the bubble economy burst in Japan, and in the USA we had the savings and loan crisis. i remember how that was, in the SF bay area, where i'm sure you've heard real estate is insane now, in 1993 we had something like 60% of the commercial space empty.

then when Ford took over Mazda 1/1/1996, they wanted to kill the FD, that day. someone was able to stay the execution, but Ford still got rid of all but one rotary engineer, and the entire future product department, among others. this is kind of why 96-2003 is kind of sleepy at Mazda, and why the Rx8 is rushed.

if the FD had come out a couple years earlier, or perhaps later, it may have actually sold better
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Old 04-22-17, 02:59 PM
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Yeah. They should just "tweak" the styling of the FD a bit, like adding an inch or so to the fender heights, adding modern arches to accommodate 18-19 inch wheels, adding some L-shaped glassed in headlights, some underbody trays and rear diffuser. Then, stiffen the chassis up a good bit and put in a 3 rotor. And, for God's sake, put in a decent interior.
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Old 04-23-17, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by gmonsen View Post
Yeah. They should just "tweak" the styling of the FD a bit, like adding an inch or so to the fender heights, adding modern arches to accommodate 18-19 inch wheels
NOOOO! Really getting sick of high fenders and hoodlines, and ever larger-diameter wheels/tires to keep them from looking puny on gigantically oversized cars... Even the new Boxster/Cayman look big now

Keep it small, keep it light, keep it LOW. 17" wheels for base model with 245s, 18" rears for powered-up version to fit 275s. No reason for 19s...

No "modern arches" either, keep them clean and free of the big flat area around the wheel openings that automakers use to try to disguise how tall the car is relative to even overly-tall wheels/tires.

Don't see any need to keep the FD styling. That car was great, but do something new. I LOVE the Vision, but would prefer to LOWER its fenders and beltline by running 245/40-17 front tires instead of 245/40-20, 3" taller than necessary for 245 width. Unnecessary added size and weight
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Old 04-23-17, 08:34 AM
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Talking Ugly Rubber-Band Tires...

Originally Posted by gmonsen View Post
Yeah. They should just "tweak" the styling of the FD a bit, like adding an inch or so to the fender heights, adding modern arches to accommodate 18-19 inch wheels,...
I think huge wheels and what I call "rubber-band" extremely-low-profile tires are ugly, not to mention impractical. If you want that just go buy a horse-drawn buggy...
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Old 04-23-17, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by ZDan View Post
NOOOO! Really getting sick of high fenders and hoodlines, and ever larger-diameter wheels/tires to keep them from looking puny on gigantically oversized cars... Even the new Boxster/Cayman look big now

Keep it small, keep it light, keep it LOW. 17" wheels for base model with 245s, 18" rears for powered-up version to fit 275s. No reason for 19s...

No "modern arches" either, keep them clean and free of the big flat area around the wheel openings that automakers use to try to disguise how tall the car is relative to even overly-tall wheels/tires.

Don't see any need to keep the FD styling. That car was great, but do something new. I LOVE the Vision, but would prefer to LOWER its fenders and beltline by running 245/40-17 front tires instead of 245/40-20, 3" taller than necessary for 245 width. Unnecessary added size and weight
I agree the (hot wheels) modern look is growing old fast

Originally Posted by DaveW View Post
I think huge wheels and what I call "rubber-band" extremely-low-profile tires are ugly, not to mention impractical. If you want that just go buy a horse-drawn buggy...
LOL.............

PS More importantly how is this thread still alive. Mazda ain't building no more rotaries..............LOSERS!!!!!!

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Old 04-24-17, 04:02 PM
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I was just in at my porsche dealership last week looking at the 718. The wheels on these cars now...my god. The base wheels are 19" and the uprated ones are 20". The overall tire diameter is HUGE. There's no wonder that cars don't come with spare tires anymore--you can't package the thing in the car, and who would want to carry around all that extra weight?

I don't even like 18" wheels on the FD--the car has such a thin side profile that putting huge wheels on it just makes it look goofy. 17" is as big as I'd want to go, which really leaves very few options these days.
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Old 04-24-17, 04:33 PM
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I'm with Fritz on this one, I don't see it ever. I hope I'm wrong because I need a newer Rotary.
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Old 04-25-17, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Moe Greene View Post
Do you guys still think a RX car will be coming out in... lets say the next 3 years?
I'd say that the big test is the Tokyo Motor Show next autumn. If Mazda shows absolutely nothing rotary-related, then I'd start to be pessimistic (and probably start to look REALLY hard at the new Supra).
But if they show something about the new rotary, such as the new engine and/or a naked chassis as they did with the Mx-5 a few months before the official unveil, then I'd be MUCH more optimistic
I don't think there's a chance of Mazda showing a complete, production ready, car yet. There might be another concept, perhaps closer to a finished car than the Rx-Vision (such as with the Rx-8 concept in 2001) or, as I said, some component of the car.

With the ND the timeline was:
April 2014: naked chassis shown;
September 2014: official unveil;
summer 2015: first deliveries;

With the next rotary it might be:
november 2015: Rx-vision shown;
november 2017: some parts of the car (naked chassis? engine?) and/or another concept unveiled;
spring/summer 2018: finished car unveiled;
first half of 2019: first deliveries;


As a side note, it's been nearly one year since the last rotary-related patents showed up un the japanese patent office website (excluding the range-extender-related ones). This leads me to believe that Mazda may be in the last development phases, where the final configuration of the engine has been locked and they want to keep their cards close to the chest as long as possible.
Just like with the Rx-8, when they released a bunch of patents just months before the finished car hit the showrooms.
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Old 04-26-17, 12:50 AM
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Originally Posted by roondawg View Post
I'm with Fritz on this one, I don't see it ever. I hope I'm wrong because I need a newer Rotary.
Ditto. Unfortunately, the electrics are having their way. There is no place for the rotary to excel. The FD had performance, handling and looks. Looks and the RX aura are not going to cut it when you get mowed down by the next generation BMW i3. Absent an electric assist, it really cannot stand out. Fuel inefficiency and emissions only put additional nails in the coffin.
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