The RX-7 confirmed to be in the pipeline for 2017---RX-Vision Unveil!!
10-30-15, 06:14 PM
#2876
The later FD's made 280hp, if it is indeed a turbocharged 16x, just linearly scaled for displacement were talking 340+hp Even scaling the renesis would yeild 280+ naturally aspirated, this is all assuming mazda mazda makes no advances in tech. I think it's safe to assume that we see some respectable numbers out of this car.
10-30-15, 06:33 PM
#2877
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
I don't know. We all know the fd made 255. Scale that to 16x and 50 more hp seems likely. That's a 25% increase from displacement and tech. Maybe 320. But more than 340?really? I guess the newer FDs made 280. Ok maybe 340. But beyond that and it Seems unlikely that they would target a Cayman if that was the case.
The 280 version was jdm. Would those meet western epa regs?
The 280 version was jdm. Would those meet western epa regs?
The later FD's made 280hp, if it is indeed a turbocharged 16x, just linearly scaled for displacement were talking 340+hp Even scaling the renesis would yeild 280+ naturally aspirated, this is all assuming mazda mazda makes no advances in tech. I think it's safe to assume that we see some respectable numbers out of this car.
Last edited by matty; 10-30-15 at 06:36 PM.
10-30-15, 06:49 PM
#2878
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10-30-15, 06:52 PM
#2879
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
Cayman gts 340hp, 2965lbs = $75k Msrp
Vision 320 hp 2700-2800lbs = $48-50k msrp
I.e. Mazda doing what they always have sought out to do. Make an agile true sports car that performs on par with much more expensive alternatives.
Even at 320 this is a much different car than a FRS.
It's offering a value proposition. I'd wager that specific enthusiasts will be happy with it but the masses won't get involved. People like us can uncork it and do some upgrades and it will perform like a 911 and for 1/3 of the total cost. I'd also wager that this time around it will be much easier to mod. Our fuel systems in the fd stunk. Add two psi and you need more fuel and expensive supporting mods. I bet you can uncork these and slap a new map in there via a flash or something as simple as that and you can raise the boost 5-8psi. So in essence spend 50k on the car and drop 1500 in mods and run with 911s.
Vision 320 hp 2700-2800lbs = $48-50k msrp
I.e. Mazda doing what they always have sought out to do. Make an agile true sports car that performs on par with much more expensive alternatives.
Even at 320 this is a much different car than a FRS.
It's offering a value proposition. I'd wager that specific enthusiasts will be happy with it but the masses won't get involved. People like us can uncork it and do some upgrades and it will perform like a 911 and for 1/3 of the total cost. I'd also wager that this time around it will be much easier to mod. Our fuel systems in the fd stunk. Add two psi and you need more fuel and expensive supporting mods. I bet you can uncork these and slap a new map in there via a flash or something as simple as that and you can raise the boost 5-8psi. So in essence spend 50k on the car and drop 1500 in mods and run with 911s.
10-30-15, 07:23 PM
#2880
It's hard to fully interpret these comments, but in-vehicle testing of a new engine family before the last major design freeze/green light is a huge investment. It demonstrates that Mazda is serious about reliability. You can design an engine family and freeze most of the design before it ever goes into a mule car by trusting only simulation results (which isn't always advisable).
Typically there's about a 2 year lead time for production-level tooling on some major components. If that freeze has already occurred, then you can't expect huge changes based on their vehicle test results. You might adjust a seal design, change a tune or a turbo wheel design or something but don't expect a different displacement because they didn't like the way it drove.
You have to be pretty serious to let a proof of concept get to the point where it's being put into vehicles. That doesn't mean it can't/won't get canned, but it's no small thing to spend that kind of money and manpower.
Mazda has probably had prototype engines of their most recent design direction for at least half a year, maybe more. A tons of work has to be done in labs. A partial baseline tune has to be made on an engine dyno before it goes into a car. Some basic durability and mechanical work has to be checked to make sure the simulations they used were ok (temperature, strain, oil aeration, etc).
I mentioned in the past that Mazda was doing oil consumption development at least 2 years ago. Back in 2014 I attended a presentation at SAE World Congress on their results with a series 2 Renesis. That's where I was stunned to find out that most of the rotary oil consumption is from leakage at the oil and gas seals due to very old designs of the seals themselves and warping of the side housings.
There's a lot of fundamental rotary research going on. Also, if this new car is on its own platform, it will have to be shared with something else. Some piston engined car, or a 4 door sedan rotary or something. I don't see how you could do what they did with the FD's 100% dedicated vehicle platform (albeit mostly shared engine with the Cosmo). It's just fistfulls of money.
Typically there's about a 2 year lead time for production-level tooling on some major components. If that freeze has already occurred, then you can't expect huge changes based on their vehicle test results. You might adjust a seal design, change a tune or a turbo wheel design or something but don't expect a different displacement because they didn't like the way it drove.
You have to be pretty serious to let a proof of concept get to the point where it's being put into vehicles. That doesn't mean it can't/won't get canned, but it's no small thing to spend that kind of money and manpower.
Mazda has probably had prototype engines of their most recent design direction for at least half a year, maybe more. A tons of work has to be done in labs. A partial baseline tune has to be made on an engine dyno before it goes into a car. Some basic durability and mechanical work has to be checked to make sure the simulations they used were ok (temperature, strain, oil aeration, etc).
I mentioned in the past that Mazda was doing oil consumption development at least 2 years ago. Back in 2014 I attended a presentation at SAE World Congress on their results with a series 2 Renesis. That's where I was stunned to find out that most of the rotary oil consumption is from leakage at the oil and gas seals due to very old designs of the seals themselves and warping of the side housings.
There's a lot of fundamental rotary research going on. Also, if this new car is on its own platform, it will have to be shared with something else. Some piston engined car, or a 4 door sedan rotary or something. I don't see how you could do what they did with the FD's 100% dedicated vehicle platform (albeit mostly shared engine with the Cosmo). It's just fistfulls of money.
10-30-15, 11:25 PM
#2881
Cayman gts 340hp, 2965lbs = $75k Msrp
Vision 320 hp 2700-2800lbs = $48-50k msrp
I.e. Mazda doing what they always have sought out to do. Make an agile true sports car that performs on par with much more expensive alternatives.
Even at 320 this is a much different car than a FRS.
It's offering a value proposition. I'd wager that specific enthusiasts will be happy with it but the masses won't get involved. People like us can uncork it and do some upgrades and it will perform like a 911 and for 1/3 of the total cost. I'd also wager that this time around it will be much easier to mod. Our fuel systems in the fd stunk. Add two psi and you need more fuel and expensive supporting mods. I bet you can uncork these and slap a new map in there via a flash or something as simple as that and you can raise the boost 5-8psi. So in essence spend 50k on the car and drop 1500 in mods and run with 911s.
Vision 320 hp 2700-2800lbs = $48-50k msrp
I.e. Mazda doing what they always have sought out to do. Make an agile true sports car that performs on par with much more expensive alternatives.
Even at 320 this is a much different car than a FRS.
It's offering a value proposition. I'd wager that specific enthusiasts will be happy with it but the masses won't get involved. People like us can uncork it and do some upgrades and it will perform like a 911 and for 1/3 of the total cost. I'd also wager that this time around it will be much easier to mod. Our fuel systems in the fd stunk. Add two psi and you need more fuel and expensive supporting mods. I bet you can uncork these and slap a new map in there via a flash or something as simple as that and you can raise the boost 5-8psi. So in essence spend 50k on the car and drop 1500 in mods and run with 911s.
As to CAN being solved an done and nothing to worry about, tell me, have all the CAN protocols for the RX8 been figured out yet? Last I checked, a few years ago (about a decade after initial release), the cluster became fairly useless with swaps.
10-30-15, 11:54 PM
#2882
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Cayman gts 340hp, 2965lbs = $75k Msrp
Vision 320 hp 2700-2800lbs = $48-50k msrp
I.e. Mazda doing what they always have sought out to do. Make an agile true sports car that performs on par with much more expensive alternatives.
Even at 320 this is a much different car than a FRS.
It's offering a value proposition. I'd wager that specific enthusiasts will be happy with it but the masses won't get involved. People like us can uncork it and do some upgrades and it will perform like a 911 and for 1/3 of the total cost. I'd also wager that this time around it will be much easier to mod. Our fuel systems in the fd stunk. Add two psi and you need more fuel and expensive supporting mods. I bet you can uncork these and slap a new map in there via a flash or something as simple as that and you can raise the boost 5-8psi. So in essence spend 50k on the car and drop 1500 in mods and run with 911s.
Vision 320 hp 2700-2800lbs = $48-50k msrp
I.e. Mazda doing what they always have sought out to do. Make an agile true sports car that performs on par with much more expensive alternatives.
Even at 320 this is a much different car than a FRS.
It's offering a value proposition. I'd wager that specific enthusiasts will be happy with it but the masses won't get involved. People like us can uncork it and do some upgrades and it will perform like a 911 and for 1/3 of the total cost. I'd also wager that this time around it will be much easier to mod. Our fuel systems in the fd stunk. Add two psi and you need more fuel and expensive supporting mods. I bet you can uncork these and slap a new map in there via a flash or something as simple as that and you can raise the boost 5-8psi. So in essence spend 50k on the car and drop 1500 in mods and run with 911s.
The FD did 0-60 in 5.1s in 1993.
The 911 Carrera also did 0-60 in 5.1s in 1993.
The new 370z NISMO does 0-60 in 4.9s.
The new Cayman S with PDK does 0-60 in 4.4s, 325 hp, and gets 18/26 mpg.
I would see the car being 38.5k unless they end up going with carbon fiber wheels and possible carbon fiber for the hood, pillers, and roof. Then it could be 45-49k.
Maybe 38.5k base with DCT and carbon fiber wheels for the mid-high 40k range?
The Shelby 350 GTR has carbon fiber wheels and is priced at 61k. The price for carbon fiber seems to be dropping a ton and a few cars have whole carbon fiber chassis.
40ks is putting it near Corvette territory which does 0-60 in 3.7s, has well known reliability, sells well in America already. I think this car needs that carbon fiber and those sexy DRLs to not only be on the concept to sell it.
I really think Mazda needs to make a car that is more newer tech to really get some sales. I would have liked to see hybrid, but it looks unlikely.
They should use a variable geometry turbo in this. Could also see variable geometry ports for the engine instead of the Renesis 3 port system. Those two things would increase efficiency a ton if they can engineer them.
I don't see why Mazda couldn't offer a Cayman S beating car for cheaper than the base Cayman. If they do, I'll buy one.
If they make a car that's barely better than the 370 or FR-S, then no thanks, I'd rather get a Cayman or 4C.
10-31-15, 12:51 AM
#2883
As far as aftermarket support, the 8 pretty much was a lost cost with low volume sales, so the R&D has been mostly on the buyers themselves. My Renesis is @350whp. There are a plenty 300+whp renesis motors around. A couple have 400+whp tunes. Although, Jason hasn't run on 18psi since his rebuild
. He holds the record in my book with 430whp using a top mount setup
10-31-15, 07:18 AM
#2884
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
How could a fd successor, with better performance, be cheaper than the original 25yrs later?
I'll stick to my 48-50k for Cayman gts performance. Hopefully time will tell.
I actually hate it from the front. Hopefully they fix that.
I'll stick to my 48-50k for Cayman gts performance. Hopefully time will tell.
I actually hate it from the front. Hopefully they fix that.
10-31-15, 07:25 AM
#2885
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Look at the Miata's price over the years, adjusted for inflation.
Most cars cost has only increased about half the difference. We get more car for less money these days. Kinda like phones, but not quite.
No way it's over 40k unless it uses a lot of carbon fiber. If it does, that could be a pretty big selling point along with increasing performance to make it worth it.
For Mazda to keep up its fun to drive yet keep up with fuel efficiency standards, it's going to have to get into mass producing carbon fiber cars and the RX7 is the perfect place to start there. No way they're lowering the Skyactiv-gen2 cars by another 200-300 lbs without carbon fiber so they have to figure out how to make it cheap like others are.
And just think about it, how is such a car going to cost Mazda more than 25-30k to build (subtracting profit and dealer profit) unless it's a hybrid or has lots of exotic materials?
Rotary engines are cheap. Turbos aren't that expensive. The stuff they put in interiors aren't that expensive. The high tensil steel and aluminum they're using in the fairly reasonably priced MX-5. Where would that 50k cost you're talking about come from? And why would I pay it when I can just get a Cayman for that much?
If it has GTS performance, maybe it would be 50k. But that's a target that makes fuel economy and emissions harder still. And hard to match without a DCT if you're comparing it to the PDK one that goes 0-60 in 4.3s.
Last edited by zaque; 10-31-15 at 07:40 AM.
10-31-15, 07:27 AM
#2886
Full Member
I agree with this , to me it seems easier for mazda to add a rotor instead of all the complexity of the turbo , however someone also stated in a reply above (sorry for not qouting you there fellow rotorhead) a very valid point , the heat generated on the exhaust side would be atomic ...... so thats a tough one
also on a nother note , if you look closely at the dash picture , the RPM gauge reads 9K , but i could be wrong here , but the redline does not go to 9k , it seems to stop at 7K , not sure if that helps or not ,
also on a nother note , if you look closely at the dash picture , the RPM gauge reads 9K , but i could be wrong here , but the redline does not go to 9k , it seems to stop at 7K , not sure if that helps or not ,
Compare it to the picture of an Rx-8 dashboard:
To me it looks very similar. The only difference is that the first "light" red starts at 8k instead of 8.5k. The "solid" red starts at 9k in both pictures. The Rx-8 has a 9k rpm fuel cut, so this points to the Skyactiv-R having a similar fuel cut rpm. Which, to me, means NA engine.
By the way, that speedometer in the RX vision seems to have a value of 200 (km/h?) right in the middle. Does it reach 400 at full scale? That's optimistic
Or maybe...And about the side port 3 rotor, Back in 2009 mazda filed some patents about the 16X and some possible improvements to it. In several of these patents the center exhaust port was split (see picture below). You still end up with two exhaust ports next to each other, but there's no longer a true "siamese" port. This should mean better exhaust design as the designers can choose to merge the exhausts from both rotors at an arbitrary distance from the ports. Also the high heat in the center ports could actually turn out to be useful to light a cat as soon as possible.
10-31-15, 07:54 AM
#2887
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The split port is going to be to cut down the super high temps the Renesis had there.
There'll be less gas escaping out there.
But it also leaves me to question how this is going to efficiently flow 300-340hp with 25% less exhaust port area than the Renesis.
Might just be that it's more efficient on the lower end but less fuel efficient on the high end even though it makes the power.
That's just a patent though, and tons is subject to change except that it's likely 1.6l direct injected.
Same thing with the concept. There's no engine in that car. The tac is arbitrary. It could redline at 7500 in turbo form.
There'll be less gas escaping out there.
But it also leaves me to question how this is going to efficiently flow 300-340hp with 25% less exhaust port area than the Renesis.
Might just be that it's more efficient on the lower end but less fuel efficient on the high end even though it makes the power.
That's just a patent though, and tons is subject to change except that it's likely 1.6l direct injected.
Same thing with the concept. There's no engine in that car. The tac is arbitrary. It could redline at 7500 in turbo form.
Last edited by zaque; 10-31-15 at 08:01 AM.
10-31-15, 08:20 AM
#2888
Constant threat
lol...this "car" will NEVER be made.
Period.
Jesus people...when will you learn? Mazda is NOT in the position to bring a car like this into production.
It will never be C.A.R.B. compliant, and without California sales...there is NO production.
I've seen hundreds and hundreds of concept cars revealed at shows like this and most never make it into production.
And frankly...who the **** would want this car? It is SEVERELY underpowered, it is an embarrassment. My God, grandma's grocery-getter Buick would stomp it in a drag race! If you can't bring 400+ hp plus big torque to the game for your "halo" car, don't even try.
Some elements of the design ARE 'pleasing to the eye", but totally impractical.
So when one...two...five years more have gone by and there is NO "new RX-7" (again!), maybe...just maybe the message will finally be loud and clear.
And yeah yeah yeah...go ahead and post your "But Mr. Washimotozoto HIMSELF has confirmed it!" I'm sure there are 30 or more "stories" that will "confirm" the car.
'Jack and the Beanstalk' is a pretty good 'story', doesn't make it real.
Period.
Jesus people...when will you learn? Mazda is NOT in the position to bring a car like this into production.
It will never be C.A.R.B. compliant, and without California sales...there is NO production.
I've seen hundreds and hundreds of concept cars revealed at shows like this and most never make it into production.
And frankly...who the **** would want this car? It is SEVERELY underpowered, it is an embarrassment. My God, grandma's grocery-getter Buick would stomp it in a drag race! If you can't bring 400+ hp plus big torque to the game for your "halo" car, don't even try.
Some elements of the design ARE 'pleasing to the eye", but totally impractical.
So when one...two...five years more have gone by and there is NO "new RX-7" (again!), maybe...just maybe the message will finally be loud and clear.
And yeah yeah yeah...go ahead and post your "But Mr. Washimotozoto HIMSELF has confirmed it!" I'm sure there are 30 or more "stories" that will "confirm" the car.
'Jack and the Beanstalk' is a pretty good 'story', doesn't make it real.
Last edited by bajaman; 10-31-15 at 08:23 AM.
10-31-15, 09:40 AM
#2889
Lest we forget....yesterday I was a passenger in my buddys stock RX8 and we were doing 1.50 laps at Mid Ohio,the chassis was tight as could be and I thought WOW this thing rocks!
If we had another 100 hp it would be nice but the whole package "works " that is the essence of the rotary for me.
If we had another 100 hp it would be nice but the whole package "works " that is the essence of the rotary for me.
10-31-15, 10:06 AM
#2890
Full Member
The split port is going to be to cut down the super high temps the Renesis had there.
There'll be less gas escaping out there.
But it also leaves me to question how this is going to efficiently flow 300-340hp with 25% less exhaust port area than the Renesis.
Might just be that it's more efficient on the lower end but less fuel efficient on the high end even though it makes the power.
That's just a patent though, and tons is subject to change except that it's likely 1.6l direct injected.
Same thing with the concept. There's no engine in that car. The tac is arbitrary. It could redline at 7500 in turbo form.
There'll be less gas escaping out there.
But it also leaves me to question how this is going to efficiently flow 300-340hp with 25% less exhaust port area than the Renesis.
Might just be that it's more efficient on the lower end but less fuel efficient on the high end even though it makes the power.
That's just a patent though, and tons is subject to change except that it's likely 1.6l direct injected.
Same thing with the concept. There's no engine in that car. The tac is arbitrary. It could redline at 7500 in turbo form.
). Assume that the Skyactiv-R is actually 1.6 liters and that, as hinted some time ago, its rotors are thinner than those of the 13B, say 70mm thin vs the 13Bs 80mm. Then we can estimate how much larger (or smaller) the ports are.The per-rotor displacement is given by the surface area of one combustion chamber at BDC (projected onto a side plate) multiplied by the rotor thickness. So:
x1*80 = 1.3
x2*70 = 1.6
Divide the two equations (I divide the second equation by the first):
(x2*70)/(x1*80) = (x2/x1)*(70/80) = 1.6/1.3 = 1.23
x2/x1 = (1.6/1.3) / (70/80) = 1.41
Where x2/x1 is is the ratio of the surface areas of the Skyactiv R compared to those of a 13B. We can see that the surface areas grow faster than the displacement increase, and since the ports are on the plates, these can grow too.
This is just an estimate: I don't know the exact thichness of the Skyactiv R rotors, I don't know its K value, its compression ratio and so on. But this should be a baseline value.
To sum it up, 23% increase in displacement but 41% (potential) increase in port area. Even if the center exhausts are somewhat more restrictive, that should not be a problem. The outer exhaust ports may have larger channels to compensate.
As for the intake, I'm betting on a combination port (side + peripheral) given what was shown in the RE range extender.
Then, of course, everything can change, as you say.
10-31-15, 12:23 PM
#2891
Rotary Enthusiast
lol...this "car" will NEVER be made.
Period.
Jesus people...when will you learn? Mazda is NOT in the position to bring a car like this into production.
It will never be C.A.R.B. compliant, and without California sales...there is NO production.
I've seen hundreds and hundreds of concept cars revealed at shows like this and most never make it into production.
And frankly...who the **** would want this car? It is SEVERELY underpowered, it is an embarrassment. My God, grandma's grocery-getter Buick would stomp it in a drag race! If you can't bring 400+ hp plus big torque to the game for your "halo" car, don't even try.
Some elements of the design ARE 'pleasing to the eye", but totally impractical.
So when one...two...five years more have gone by and there is NO "new RX-7" (again!), maybe...just maybe the message will finally be loud and clear.
And yeah yeah yeah...go ahead and post your "But Mr. Washimotozoto HIMSELF has confirmed it!" I'm sure there are 30 or more "stories" that will "confirm" the car.
'Jack and the Beanstalk' is a pretty good 'story', doesn't make it real.
Period.
Jesus people...when will you learn? Mazda is NOT in the position to bring a car like this into production.
It will never be C.A.R.B. compliant, and without California sales...there is NO production.
I've seen hundreds and hundreds of concept cars revealed at shows like this and most never make it into production.
And frankly...who the **** would want this car? It is SEVERELY underpowered, it is an embarrassment. My God, grandma's grocery-getter Buick would stomp it in a drag race! If you can't bring 400+ hp plus big torque to the game for your "halo" car, don't even try.
Some elements of the design ARE 'pleasing to the eye", but totally impractical.
So when one...two...five years more have gone by and there is NO "new RX-7" (again!), maybe...just maybe the message will finally be loud and clear.
And yeah yeah yeah...go ahead and post your "But Mr. Washimotozoto HIMSELF has confirmed it!" I'm sure there are 30 or more "stories" that will "confirm" the car.
'Jack and the Beanstalk' is a pretty good 'story', doesn't make it real.
But the general public does not , they care about HP .
Its about market share , Rotary Loyalist you already have , given the situation most rotary fans (if they can ) would buy this , but to sway a cayman (porsche) owner to step out of his prestige , to sway a Vette owner out of his trusted V8 , to sway the mustang owner to step out of his known high powered tough as nails stang , to ask all these guys to step out of that and try a good looking well balanced but under powered car (remember the RX-8, lets face it we all know it was under powered )they are not going to do it , i just dont see it .
It might take corners well but i bet you the first test they do with this car when reviewers get it , is a quarter mile test , that show it`s always been and as blunt as it sounds thats what a lot of buyers tend to see first .
Much like how sex sells , in the car world ....HP sells plain and simple
on the other hand this car (or something similar ) WILL get made , simple reason is that
1.Mazda would not dump so much time and effort in the rotary engine , and just do all that research and then be like " oh ok we tried it , it didn't work , **** it no more " they might then as well take all that money and have wasted it on cheap hookers and booze
2.The rotary is their heritage , all things said the only Japanese manufacturer that won the lemans was mazda with the rotary engine , they are proud of that (so are most of us) and speaks huge volumes of mazda , they dont back off from a challenge , even when everyone tells them it`s a dead end , that's what Mazda is , and its the only thing that sets them apart as well
and having a rotary engine without a car is just a big no no
Everyone needs to chill also regarding the look , remember this isn`t an RX-7 or an RX-9 .....yet , its still the VISION , this is not the car you will buy this is a prototype , the production version (which might be called RX-7/RX-9) will have to be tweaked etc etc
Again guys speculation is all we have , I have two big fears , a cheap under powered car , or a insanely expensive overpowered car that`s not affordable , the power needs to be right
and i am sorry guys the , i know i am going to get burned big time for this , and yes i know mazda themselves said this , but seriously cayman ??.....who targets the cayman??...the cayman is an over glorified boxter , does it run good on a track ?, probably yes , does it have good balance , again probably yes , will it outrun Jethro`s mustang on the streets no way
when i think performance the cayman is way ..way ...waaaayyy back in those ranks
10-31-15, 12:53 PM
#2892
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Nice short sightedness, bajaman.
The executives and engineers are all clearly excited to make it.
The CEO, who a year and a half ago said "We are not making a new rotary. We are making profitable cars" is now saying "Well... I guess we're making a rotary".
The engineers never stopped working on the new engine since 2007 even though there was no car to put it in slotted for production.
Fujiwara said prototype testing will begin soon, though he's not certain whether or not him and the other engineers can solve all the problems by 2017.
Mazda has frequently shown that they can quickly develop completely new cars in 18-24 months even since they started the new Skyactiv line. Only thing that's holding them up is solving the issues they set to solve with the engine.
Mazda has also not been showing concepts that don't become new cars the past 4 years (and that are generally very very close to the concept), even though the RX-Vision concept is their least production ready one one.
The executives and engineers are all clearly excited to make it.
The CEO, who a year and a half ago said "We are not making a new rotary. We are making profitable cars" is now saying "Well... I guess we're making a rotary".
The engineers never stopped working on the new engine since 2007 even though there was no car to put it in slotted for production.
Fujiwara said prototype testing will begin soon, though he's not certain whether or not him and the other engineers can solve all the problems by 2017.
Mazda has frequently shown that they can quickly develop completely new cars in 18-24 months even since they started the new Skyactiv line. Only thing that's holding them up is solving the issues they set to solve with the engine.
Mazda has also not been showing concepts that don't become new cars the past 4 years (and that are generally very very close to the concept), even though the RX-Vision concept is their least production ready one one.
10-31-15, 02:23 PM
#2893
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I kind of agree with this statement , not completely though , HP numbers sell cars , period , you can tell me anything you want about balance , and weight , yes we care about that .
But the general public does not , they care about HP .
Its about market share , Rotary Loyalist you already have , given the situation most rotary fans (if they can ) would buy this , but to sway a cayman (porsche) owner to step out of his prestige , to sway a Vette owner out of his trusted V8 , to sway the mustang owner to step out of his known high powered tough as nails stang , to ask all these guys to step out of that and try a good looking well balanced but under powered car (remember the RX-8, lets face it we all know it was under powered )they are not going to do it , i just dont see it .
It might take corners well but i bet you the first test they do with this car when reviewers get it , is a quarter mile test , that show it`s always been and as blunt as it sounds thats what a lot of buyers tend to see first .
Much like how sex sells , in the car world ....HP sells plain and simple
on the other hand this car (or something similar ) WILL get made , simple reason is that
1.Mazda would not dump so much time and effort in the rotary engine , and just do all that research and then be like " oh ok we tried it , it didn't work , **** it no more " they might then as well take all that money and have wasted it on cheap hookers and booze
2.The rotary is their heritage , all things said the only Japanese manufacturer that won the lemans was mazda with the rotary engine , they are proud of that (so are most of us) and speaks huge volumes of mazda , they dont back off from a challenge , even when everyone tells them it`s a dead end , that's what Mazda is , and its the only thing that sets them apart as well
and having a rotary engine without a car is just a big no no
Everyone needs to chill also regarding the look , remember this isn`t an RX-7 or an RX-9 .....yet , its still the VISION , this is not the car you will buy this is a prototype , the production version (which might be called RX-7/RX-9) will have to be tweaked etc etc
Again guys speculation is all we have , I have two big fears , a cheap under powered car , or a insanely expensive overpowered car that`s not affordable , the power needs to be right
and i am sorry guys the , i know i am going to get burned big time for this , and yes i know mazda themselves said this , but seriously cayman ??.....who targets the cayman??...the cayman is an over glorified boxter , does it run good on a track ?, probably yes , does it have good balance , again probably yes , will it outrun Jethro`s mustang on the streets no way
when i think performance the cayman is way ..way ...waaaayyy back in those ranks
But the general public does not , they care about HP .
Its about market share , Rotary Loyalist you already have , given the situation most rotary fans (if they can ) would buy this , but to sway a cayman (porsche) owner to step out of his prestige , to sway a Vette owner out of his trusted V8 , to sway the mustang owner to step out of his known high powered tough as nails stang , to ask all these guys to step out of that and try a good looking well balanced but under powered car (remember the RX-8, lets face it we all know it was under powered )they are not going to do it , i just dont see it .
It might take corners well but i bet you the first test they do with this car when reviewers get it , is a quarter mile test , that show it`s always been and as blunt as it sounds thats what a lot of buyers tend to see first .
Much like how sex sells , in the car world ....HP sells plain and simple
on the other hand this car (or something similar ) WILL get made , simple reason is that
1.Mazda would not dump so much time and effort in the rotary engine , and just do all that research and then be like " oh ok we tried it , it didn't work , **** it no more " they might then as well take all that money and have wasted it on cheap hookers and booze
2.The rotary is their heritage , all things said the only Japanese manufacturer that won the lemans was mazda with the rotary engine , they are proud of that (so are most of us) and speaks huge volumes of mazda , they dont back off from a challenge , even when everyone tells them it`s a dead end , that's what Mazda is , and its the only thing that sets them apart as well
and having a rotary engine without a car is just a big no no
Everyone needs to chill also regarding the look , remember this isn`t an RX-7 or an RX-9 .....yet , its still the VISION , this is not the car you will buy this is a prototype , the production version (which might be called RX-7/RX-9) will have to be tweaked etc etc
Again guys speculation is all we have , I have two big fears , a cheap under powered car , or a insanely expensive overpowered car that`s not affordable , the power needs to be right
and i am sorry guys the , i know i am going to get burned big time for this , and yes i know mazda themselves said this , but seriously cayman ??.....who targets the cayman??...the cayman is an over glorified boxter , does it run good on a track ?, probably yes , does it have good balance , again probably yes , will it outrun Jethro`s mustang on the streets no way
when i think performance the cayman is way ..way ...waaaayyy back in those ranks
10-31-15, 02:25 PM
#2894
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"hp sells" this is a completely false statement. if it was true, we would all be buying hellcats, at 700hp but we aren't.
"Mazda will never meet the mileage nonsense" this is also false, its an average of the whole fleet. second its not even a selling point. the european marques sell a ton of high HP cars that get mediocre fuel mileage, and nobody cares at all. do we worry what kind of mileage the hellcat is going to get? we don't.
"mazda won't be able to meet emissions". this is not really our problem, but the piston engine has made huge strides in this area in even the last 10 years. 10 years ago the 700hp hellcat would have been an impossibility, yet that passes emissions, despite it being a gigantic OHV V8
people seem to buy cars based on brand image, and price. for instance toyota sells a ton of mediocre cars for the same money or more than the competitors*. example two, nissan is still in business for some reason, i guess people like French cars restyled to look like whales?
and of course price is a factor, we want the [insert marque here], but buy the Rx7 instead, which is a huge disappointment, because the trunk is smaller, and the gas mileage is bad
"Mazda will never meet the mileage nonsense" this is also false, its an average of the whole fleet. second its not even a selling point. the european marques sell a ton of high HP cars that get mediocre fuel mileage, and nobody cares at all. do we worry what kind of mileage the hellcat is going to get? we don't.
"mazda won't be able to meet emissions". this is not really our problem, but the piston engine has made huge strides in this area in even the last 10 years. 10 years ago the 700hp hellcat would have been an impossibility, yet that passes emissions, despite it being a gigantic OHV V8
people seem to buy cars based on brand image, and price. for instance toyota sells a ton of mediocre cars for the same money or more than the competitors*. example two, nissan is still in business for some reason, i guess people like French cars restyled to look like whales?
and of course price is a factor, we want the [insert marque here], but buy the Rx7 instead, which is a huge disappointment, because the trunk is smaller, and the gas mileage is bad
10-31-15, 06:01 PM
#2895
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First, the car is NOT "big". Have you seen people standing next to it?? it's withing inches of the FD, but with a longer wheelbase.
Second, I think we should trust Mazda with this. They know what they're up against, and they know what act they're following (the FD). People talk negatively about the Rx-8, largely because they missed the point of the car, in my opinion. The Rx-8 was never intended to be a replacement for the Rx7. It was a true 4-door, 4 seat, PERFECTLY balanced sports car. That's what it was designed to be, and in that, they succeeded.
The new Rx-7 (that's what they'll call it) is aimed at the Cayman/S, but with the aim of being lighter, and therefore faster and with better handling. That puts it is really good company. So let's just wait and see. Have faith. They haven't messed up the Rx7 yet, I'm extremely confident that they won't this time either.
Second, I think we should trust Mazda with this. They know what they're up against, and they know what act they're following (the FD). People talk negatively about the Rx-8, largely because they missed the point of the car, in my opinion. The Rx-8 was never intended to be a replacement for the Rx7. It was a true 4-door, 4 seat, PERFECTLY balanced sports car. That's what it was designed to be, and in that, they succeeded.
The new Rx-7 (that's what they'll call it) is aimed at the Cayman/S, but with the aim of being lighter, and therefore faster and with better handling. That puts it is really good company. So let's just wait and see. Have faith. They haven't messed up the Rx7 yet, I'm extremely confident that they won't this time either.
I looked at the photos, videos after your comment. again my view is same and i say that car is too wide and too long. Look at doors they are huge, front is too long wheels are too big 20inch fits good on the car but in reality that 20 inch wheels need power. If Mazda reduce wheels maybe shape of fenders will be redesign. Then some proportions will be redesign.
That car is too low for public roads, they need hydraulic system like lamborghini. I am not sure if they can put that system on that car then price will get high and targeting strategy will change.
Everytime concepts and showcars have bigger wheels. But Mazda did it reality Last RX-8 R3 has 19 inch and Spirit R Special Editions has 20inch. But both RX-8 R3's have not enough power on that wheels looks good but not that good on acceleration performance.
They are not producing 2,194 lb alfa 4C. Alfa get 240hp with tiny engine but lightweight is the key.
ND miata is 2,200 lb If Mazda won't use carbonmonoque chassis or producing methods for lightening car, that car wont be able to get 2,866 lb. 300 hp peak power isn't enough for that weight.
That car reminds LFA concept days
RX Vision will be challenge new nsx, lfa, next supra, gtr 35 or next gtr.
10-31-15, 07:46 PM
#2898
I have an RX-8 R3. I am happy with it. I never think they missed the point. Well balanced 4 door 4 seat comfortable you can use both daily or track. They targetted more sales with that car. Again i say RX-8 should have been 100 kg lighter.
I looked at the photos, videos after your comment. again my view is same and i say that car is too wide and too long. Look at doors they are huge, front is too long wheels are too big 20inch fits good on the car but in reality that 20 inch wheels need power. If Mazda reduce wheels maybe shape of fenders will be redesign. Then some proportions will be redesign.
That car is too low for public roads, they need hydraulic system like lamborghini. I am not sure if they can put that system on that car then price will get high and targeting strategy will change.
Everytime concepts and showcars have bigger wheels. But Mazda did it reality Last RX-8 R3 has 19 inch and Spirit R Special Editions has 20inch. But both RX-8 R3's have not enough power on that wheels looks good but not that good on acceleration performance.
They are not producing 2,194 lb alfa 4C. Alfa get 240hp with tiny engine but lightweight is the key.
ND miata is 2,200 lb If Mazda won't use carbonmonoque chassis or producing methods for lightening car, that car wont be able to get 2,866 lb. 300 hp peak power isn't enough for that weight.
That car reminds LFA concept days
RX Vision will be challenge new nsx, lfa, next supra, gtr 35 or next gtr.
I looked at the photos, videos after your comment. again my view is same and i say that car is too wide and too long. Look at doors they are huge, front is too long wheels are too big 20inch fits good on the car but in reality that 20 inch wheels need power. If Mazda reduce wheels maybe shape of fenders will be redesign. Then some proportions will be redesign.
That car is too low for public roads, they need hydraulic system like lamborghini. I am not sure if they can put that system on that car then price will get high and targeting strategy will change.
Everytime concepts and showcars have bigger wheels. But Mazda did it reality Last RX-8 R3 has 19 inch and Spirit R Special Editions has 20inch. But both RX-8 R3's have not enough power on that wheels looks good but not that good on acceleration performance.
They are not producing 2,194 lb alfa 4C. Alfa get 240hp with tiny engine but lightweight is the key.
ND miata is 2,200 lb If Mazda won't use carbonmonoque chassis or producing methods for lightening car, that car wont be able to get 2,866 lb. 300 hp peak power isn't enough for that weight.
That car reminds LFA concept days
RX Vision will be challenge new nsx, lfa, next supra, gtr 35 or next gtr.
The fact that Mazda built a car that drove the way the Rx8 did, and was still actually practical, means that they succeeded in THEIR goal. The car was not meant to replace the Rx7 as a pure, raw, racecar for the street. I think there are a LOT of people (on this forum, and in general) who never understood that.
And as for the Rx Vision and its size...it's a concept. It really shouldn't be judged for it's preparation, or lack thereof, for public roads, or practicality. It isn't "supposed" to be completely ready for production....it's a concept. It's purpose is to show the direction of the company or it's products , in an extreme, and exciting way. I would think this would be obvious.
The car's chief designer has even stated that, before the car reaches production, several aspects would have to be altered, or taken into consideration, including wheel size, overall dimensions, and weight. Also, Mazda has also said directly, that we should look to the Cayman for the direction of the new Rx7. The car will not challenge the new NSX, LFA, GTR, etc.
And again, I think we should trust Mazda. they know what they're up against. This is the RX7 we're talking about here! This is THE CAR for them, even more so than the Miata, if you ask me. This is not something new that they're trying out, like the Rx-8 was. They KNOW they can't afford to screw this up. After this long, if Mazda is putting themselves out there the way they have with this concept, and generating this much excitement, then please believe they know they've got something BIG up their sleeves. Everything about this screams supreme confidence on the part of Mazda.
They know what they've got, they're just waiting to knock everyone's socks off with it. Watch....
Last edited by YELLOWGSLSE; 10-31-15 at 08:28 PM.
10-31-15, 08:15 PM
#2899
Rotary Enthusiast
"hp sells" this is a completely false statement. if it was true, we would all be buying hellcats, at 700hp but we aren't.
"Mazda will never meet the mileage nonsense" this is also false, its an average of the whole fleet. second its not even a selling point. the european marques sell a ton of high HP cars that get mediocre fuel mileage, and nobody cares at all. do we worry what kind of mileage the hellcat is going to get? we don't.
"mazda won't be able to meet emissions". this is not really our problem, but the piston engine has made huge strides in this area in even the last 10 years. 10 years ago the 700hp hellcat would have been an impossibility, yet that passes emissions, despite it being a gigantic OHV V8
people seem to buy cars based on brand image, and price. for instance toyota sells a ton of mediocre cars for the same money or more than the competitors*. example two, nissan is still in business for some reason, i guess people like French cars restyled to look like whales?
and of course price is a factor, we want the [insert marque here], but buy the Rx7 instead, which is a huge disappointment, because the trunk is smaller, and the gas mileage is bad
"Mazda will never meet the mileage nonsense" this is also false, its an average of the whole fleet. second its not even a selling point. the european marques sell a ton of high HP cars that get mediocre fuel mileage, and nobody cares at all. do we worry what kind of mileage the hellcat is going to get? we don't.
"mazda won't be able to meet emissions". this is not really our problem, but the piston engine has made huge strides in this area in even the last 10 years. 10 years ago the 700hp hellcat would have been an impossibility, yet that passes emissions, despite it being a gigantic OHV V8
people seem to buy cars based on brand image, and price. for instance toyota sells a ton of mediocre cars for the same money or more than the competitors*. example two, nissan is still in business for some reason, i guess people like French cars restyled to look like whales?
and of course price is a factor, we want the [insert marque here], but buy the Rx7 instead, which is a huge disappointment, because the trunk is smaller, and the gas mileage is bad
Also I am generalizing here, and trying to paint the picture of whats out there, I like a good balanced car, but the power has to be there period.
10-31-15, 08:39 PM
#2900
Rotary Enthusiast
ThUnDeRbErK, I was saying that the people who trash talk the Rx8 are the ones missing the point, not Mazda. I own a modded FD with upgraded suspension, and I've driven the Rx8 R3 several times. I think teh R3 the best, most well balanced sportscar I've ever driven. And that was my point. The fact that Mazda built a car that drove the way the Rx8 did, and was still actually practical, means that they succeeded in THEIR goal. The car was not meant to replace the Rx7 as a pure, raw, racecar for the street. I think there are a LOT of people (on this forum, and in general) who never understood that.
Imagine the uninformed buyer trying to buy the "next big thing out there"....whats better or what comes after the 7.....why 8 of course, poor guy buys it expecting something, boom a dodge neon rips you a new *******...... lightweight is very important....very no doubt, but it's only part of the equation so is power, almost everyone on this forum knows the Rotary can deliver this as well.
If this prototype turns out to be the next 7 the general public will pit it against those other Japanese cars (GTR, supra) 100%, no matter how much Mazda sits in a corner and screams it's aimed at the Cayman.
Those three cars have always had that "feud" and probably always will.
As soon as people see the numbers don't match up, or god forbid, the actual car doesn't match up.....its Rx-8 scenario all over again.
In this case I think it won't matter who Mazda says this thing is aimed at......people will compare it to what they want.......and that's the gamble that someone in a previous post mentioned