The RX-7 confirmed to be in the pipeline for 2017---RX-Vision Unveil!!
10-29-15, 09:17 AM
#2801
Rotary Enthusiast
Dont get me wrong , if mazda pops a 4 rotor in there i will take it , **** yes .
however i think a 3 rotor is more feasible , its been more tested , heck it was even in production .
also all this is assuming the 16X is "rotor scalable" .
honestly i am a bit over the 2 rotor idea , i think it lacks torque , plus this body looks somehow more "mature " i think its time mazda pulled out the big guns , besides its a shame to have that tech and not use it .
Would a three rotor N/A setup be more cost effective than a 2 rotor turbo setup , it certainly be less complex , i dont know what do you guys think ?
however i think a 3 rotor is more feasible , its been more tested , heck it was even in production .
also all this is assuming the 16X is "rotor scalable" .
honestly i am a bit over the 2 rotor idea , i think it lacks torque , plus this body looks somehow more "mature " i think its time mazda pulled out the big guns , besides its a shame to have that tech and not use it .
Would a three rotor N/A setup be more cost effective than a 2 rotor turbo setup , it certainly be less complex , i dont know what do you guys think ?
10-29-15, 09:43 AM
#2802
SC'd RX8
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Newark Delaware
Posts: 115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think its a safe bet to assume it will be some evolution of the 16X with turbo.
Mazda's fleet emissions and EPA averages can allow this car to get away with a little but not a lot as far as emissions go.
As much as I and a lot of others want a factory issued and supported 20B I just think that's too much wishful thinking. I would absolutely love to be proven wrong though.
Mazda's fleet emissions and EPA averages can allow this car to get away with a little but not a lot as far as emissions go.
As much as I and a lot of others want a factory issued and supported 20B I just think that's too much wishful thinking. I would absolutely love to be proven wrong though.
Last edited by Rotr8; 10-29-15 at 09:45 AM.
10-29-15, 09:55 AM
#2803
Moderator
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: https://www2.mazda.com/en/100th/
Posts: 30,826
Received 2,592 Likes
on
1,841 Posts
i heard a rumor from Mazda directly, and they are on schedule. the weight target was "half a GTR", somehow in 2012 that was 2800lbs, but its only 1950lbs today, so i'm not sure what a GTR weighs, i guess. the rumor also said 300-350hp. subsequently i've heard it is still the 16x 2 rotor, which was in some finalizing stage on the dynos over the summer.
my opinion; the new car looks great, and i hope it sounds great too, best way would be a 3 rotor. also i think the race cars (787's and such) have such a following, that something that sounded like that would be incredible
10-29-15, 10:15 AM
#2805
Rotary Enthusiast
I think its a safe bet to assume it will be some evolution of the 16X with turbo.
Mazda's fleet emissions and EPA averages can allow this car to get away with a little but not a lot as far as emissions go.
As much as I and a lot of others want a factory issued and supported 20B I just think that's too much wishful thinking. I would absolutely love to be proven wrong though.
Mazda's fleet emissions and EPA averages can allow this car to get away with a little but not a lot as far as emissions go.
As much as I and a lot of others want a factory issued and supported 20B I just think that's too much wishful thinking. I would absolutely love to be proven wrong though.
the current dimensions put it near vette size , so if it shrinks in size what will the "class" be were this car will fall in .
The car looks good , or better said stunning , and i believe What it was supposed to do , it did well , which was sending ripples in the automotive world , i`m pretty sure that for that day Mazda got everyone`s attention and reminded them that they are still here .
With a few tweaks that car could be production ready ,
The thing that has me concerned , is the engine and/or HP figures , if this thing is rated at 300/325hp, while it might not need more , from a marketing standpoint it would be a killing blow , i dont know of any modern sportscar (that is considered a serious sports car) that isnt in the 400/400+ range
Again , all of this is speculation and crazy thought trains , but i guess the main thing that mazda set out to do it did , because here we are talking about it , which is a good thing on its own
I cant wait to see and here more of the vision , keeping the fingers crossed for a 3 rotor 24X
10-29-15, 10:22 AM
#2806
Solid point and as you mentioned , the big question is what will it be competing against , are they trying to sway customers from porsche or just going after vette`s etc ,
the current dimensions put it near vette size , so if it shrinks in size what will the "class" be were this car will fall in .
The car looks good , or better said stunning , and i believe What it was supposed to do , it did well , which was sending ripples in the automotive world , i`m pretty sure that for that day Mazda got everyone`s attention and reminded them that they are still here .
With a few tweaks that car could be production ready ,
The thing that has me concerned , is the engine and/or HP figures , if this thing is rated at 300/325hp, while it might not need more , from a marketing standpoint it would be a killing blow , i dont know of any modern sportscar (that is considered a serious sports car) that isnt in the 400/400+ range
Again , all of this is speculation and crazy thought trains , but i guess the main thing that mazda set out to do it did , because here we are talking about it , which is a good thing on its own
I cant wait to see and here more of the vision , keeping the fingers crossed for a 3 rotor 24X
the current dimensions put it near vette size , so if it shrinks in size what will the "class" be were this car will fall in .
The car looks good , or better said stunning , and i believe What it was supposed to do , it did well , which was sending ripples in the automotive world , i`m pretty sure that for that day Mazda got everyone`s attention and reminded them that they are still here .
With a few tweaks that car could be production ready ,
The thing that has me concerned , is the engine and/or HP figures , if this thing is rated at 300/325hp, while it might not need more , from a marketing standpoint it would be a killing blow , i dont know of any modern sportscar (that is considered a serious sports car) that isnt in the 400/400+ range
Again , all of this is speculation and crazy thought trains , but i guess the main thing that mazda set out to do it did , because here we are talking about it , which is a good thing on its own
I cant wait to see and here more of the vision , keeping the fingers crossed for a 3 rotor 24X
They said it's aimed at the Cayman/Cayman S, which are 295 and 325 hp respectively, and they are aiming for it to be lighter than those cars (2800), so 300 would be in the ballpark. They also said that turbocharging is an option, which would make adding power a lot easier in the aftermarket.
10-29-15, 10:32 AM
#2807
Moderator
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: https://www2.mazda.com/en/100th/
Posts: 30,826
Received 2,592 Likes
on
1,841 Posts
10-29-15, 10:35 AM
#2808
This is why its so hard to discuss styling. Styling isn't something that is objective, by its very nature its subjective. Hell most times styling tries to go against function and the ensuing discussion between styling and design groups can be entertaining and terrible at the same time, when things like this part needs more surface tension comes into play xD, and no justifiable reason other than styling experience... There is no where in the world that you can fully look at styling objectively, as styling's main purpose is to evoke some sort of emotion or feeling, and those aren't objective subjects.
On a side note I'm hoping for a small electric turbo for low end with a large single turbo for everything else on the hopefully upcoming RX platform.
On a side note I'm hoping for a small electric turbo for low end with a large single turbo for everything else on the hopefully upcoming RX platform.
10-29-15, 10:40 AM
#2809
TopGear interview w/ Kiyoshi Fujiwara, Mazda’s head of R&D:
Meet the RX Vision, Mazda's gorgeous rotary-engined sportscar | Top Gear
10-29-15, 11:29 AM
#2810
Moderator
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: https://www2.mazda.com/en/100th/
Posts: 30,826
Received 2,592 Likes
on
1,841 Posts
TopGear interview w/ Kiyoshi Fujiwara, Mazda’s head of R&D:
Meet the RX Vision, Mazda's gorgeous rotary-engined sportscar | Top Gear
Meet the RX Vision, Mazda's gorgeous rotary-engined sportscar | Top Gear
here is the important quote "“I can’t go into details, but we believe turbo is one of the options we can look at for rotary,” said Fujiwara. “At this moment we’re not working on a rotary hybrid system,”"
Last edited by j9fd3s; 10-29-15 at 11:39 AM.
10-29-15, 11:29 AM
#2811
I talked to a local Mazda dealership who said they are accepting deposits on the RX-Vision of only $500.
According to this dealership rep, they apparently gave a whole buncha goodies worth well-over $500 to the first 500 Miata buyers. Something about a Bose stereo, a buncha signed goodies, hats, etc.
I'm definitely gonna put down a deposit and get my name on the list. It's the only way for dealerships to show Mazda Corporate the level of legitimate interest in the car.
According to this dealership rep, they apparently gave a whole buncha goodies worth well-over $500 to the first 500 Miata buyers. Something about a Bose stereo, a buncha signed goodies, hats, etc.
I'm definitely gonna put down a deposit and get my name on the list. It's the only way for dealerships to show Mazda Corporate the level of legitimate interest in the car.
10-29-15, 11:46 AM
#2812
I talked to a local Mazda dealership who said they are accepting deposits on the RX-Vision of only $500.
According to this dealership rep, they apparently gave a whole buncha goodies worth well-over $500 to the first 500 Miata buyers. Something about a Bose stereo, a buncha signed goodies, hats, etc.
I'm definitely gonna put down a deposit and get my name on the list. It's the only way for dealerships to show Mazda Corporate the level of legitimate interest in the car.
According to this dealership rep, they apparently gave a whole buncha goodies worth well-over $500 to the first 500 Miata buyers. Something about a Bose stereo, a buncha signed goodies, hats, etc.
I'm definitely gonna put down a deposit and get my name on the list. It's the only way for dealerships to show Mazda Corporate the level of legitimate interest in the car.
10-29-15, 11:57 AM
#2813
Rotary Enthusiast
I`m pretty sure they know what they are doing (at least i hope so ) , but aiming this vehicle at the cayman/Cayman S group , wouldn`t that be a really narrow demographic ?
Again , they probably know more than me on that subject , but it seems like such a "so so" car to compare your flagship to , it would be like me making my top of the line car and pitting it against a celica instead of the supra , maybe i am looking at it wrong , and yes i am totally biased , who here on the forum isn`t .
it`s just that the cayman seems like such a weak car to compare this to , FD`s would go up against Cobra`s , vettes , vipers ,yes slightly modded , but still , that is what everyone remembers .
I am probably explaining it wrong , but the FD left such an impression that its hard to compare that beauty to the cayman ,
Sorry guys i am probably still in shock of this car , thats why i am rambling
Again , they probably know more than me on that subject , but it seems like such a "so so" car to compare your flagship to , it would be like me making my top of the line car and pitting it against a celica instead of the supra , maybe i am looking at it wrong , and yes i am totally biased , who here on the forum isn`t .
it`s just that the cayman seems like such a weak car to compare this to , FD`s would go up against Cobra`s , vettes , vipers ,yes slightly modded , but still , that is what everyone remembers .
I am probably explaining it wrong , but the FD left such an impression that its hard to compare that beauty to the cayman ,
Sorry guys i am probably still in shock of this car , thats why i am rambling
10-29-15, 12:10 PM
#2814
I'd love a Vette and Viper beating RX7, but that might be a little ambitious given where those cars have gone.
The Cayman is an awesome car that everyone loves, it's just too expensive. Even the used ones are stupid expensive. If they can produce a Cayman beater for $20k less, a lot more people would probably buy one.
The Cayman is an awesome car that everyone loves, it's just too expensive. Even the used ones are stupid expensive. If they can produce a Cayman beater for $20k less, a lot more people would probably buy one.
10-29-15, 12:24 PM
#2815
All out Track Freak!
iTrader: (263)
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Charlottesville VA 22901
Posts: 10,672
Received 412 Likes
on
250 Posts
They said it's aimed at the Cayman/Cayman S, which are 295 and 325 hp respectively, and they are aiming for it to be lighter than those cars (2800), so 300 would be in the ballpark. They also said that turbocharging is an option, which would make adding power a lot easier in the aftermarket.
My DD is 2600 pounds 340 rwhp, smooth/easy to drive and rock solid reliable. Cost me very little to insure and very little prop tax.
10-29-15, 01:02 PM
#2816
Full Member
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Medicine Hat, AB, CA
Posts: 83
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Kind of what I was thinking. They quoted 0-60 of ~5s, so pretty close to the FD when it came out. That being said, chassis technology has come a long way since then, so the new Rx7 would presumably be much quicker around a track. IMO this car deserves at least 400hp.
10-29-15, 01:17 PM
#2817
Rotary Enthusiast
I'd love a Vette and Viper beating RX7, but that might be a little ambitious given where those cars have gone.
The Cayman is an awesome car that everyone loves, it's just too expensive. Even the used ones are stupid expensive. If they can produce a Cayman beater for $20k less, a lot more people would probably buy one.
The Cayman is an awesome car that everyone loves, it's just too expensive. Even the used ones are stupid expensive. If they can produce a Cayman beater for $20k less, a lot more people would probably buy one.
you had 40K for 255hp , and i believe around 30something for a cobra with 305 , and yes we know better that it`s not all about the numbers , but a lot of buyers do not .
also from the FD 255 hp now 20+ years later you just cant bump me to 300 or 325 , it seems way to low for the time frame
Honestly i believe this car should be at a minimum of 400 hp , again this is just my opinion and i could be wrong
10-29-15, 01:34 PM
#2818
I'm just being realistic. C7 starts at $55k. Viper at $87k. Cayman $65k. Cayman is 325hp, 3000 lbs.
370Z starts at $30k, and has 350 max, and weighs in the mid 3000's. For about $40-45k, I'd say 300-325 for 2800 lb car would be pretty reasonable.
No, I doubt it'll beat a modded FD on pure hp/weight ratio, but that 2800 is for a "full" car, with interior, A/C, modern safety and (presumably) electronics, likely a stiffer chassis, and would be moddable if it's a turbo.
I agree Mazda risks playing the "weight" game, because most people just see a HP figure and see that as the end of the story, but I think that's probably Mazdas game if it has one.
370Z starts at $30k, and has 350 max, and weighs in the mid 3000's. For about $40-45k, I'd say 300-325 for 2800 lb car would be pretty reasonable.
No, I doubt it'll beat a modded FD on pure hp/weight ratio, but that 2800 is for a "full" car, with interior, A/C, modern safety and (presumably) electronics, likely a stiffer chassis, and would be moddable if it's a turbo.
I agree Mazda risks playing the "weight" game, because most people just see a HP figure and see that as the end of the story, but I think that's probably Mazdas game if it has one.
10-29-15, 01:50 PM
#2820
Moderator
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: https://www2.mazda.com/en/100th/
Posts: 30,826
Received 2,592 Likes
on
1,841 Posts
No, I doubt it'll beat a modded FD on pure hp/weight ratio, but that 2800 is for a "full" car, with interior, A/C, modern safety and (presumably) electronics, likely a stiffer chassis, and would be moddable if it's a turbo..
10-29-15, 02:26 PM
#2821
From the recent posts I am quite worried that Mazda will try to play the weight game and/or the "tuner" game. Just like the FT86/etc. I doubt it will work well at the mentioned price point given that people with more income tend to be smarter and both less likely to fall for the marketing or simply want a name if they're paying that much; and Mazda is not Porsche or Corvette or GTR or even Z for that matter. This is especially true if they want a continuation of the RX legacy, that is to say something that was not only unique but excellently designed and extremely competitive out of the box. If their goal is to simply put something out there to break even then I don't think that will be an issue although, IMO, it'll be very difficult to justify buying it if they do.
Ironically, he's been here on the 7club since LONG before the current level of kid gloves and "play nice with the newbs" was a norm.
I don't think you need to coach Montego on how internet forums can be a harsh mistress, as he was around when this place really WAS for those with thick skin!!
Yeah, I figured as much from his badge which makes his statement all the more odd unless he was trolling softly. But the statement is still fundamentally idiotic.
It has one, it's called the reply button.
Ironically, he's been here on the 7club since LONG before the current level of kid gloves and "play nice with the newbs" was a norm.I don't think you need to coach Montego on how internet forums can be a harsh mistress, as he was around when this place really WAS for those with thick skin!!
It has one, it's called the reply button.
10-29-15, 02:54 PM
#2822
Did you read the quote right? It MIGHT be a turbo, but it's not going to be a hybrid thus far (surprising to me, as a hybrid would cure the torque issue and not add emissions).
I think they've got to get to nearly 300hp N/A, and then maybe there's a turbo model with more (350-400), otherwise that's a lot of cost/complexity for the 300 HP.
10-29-15, 03:16 PM
#2823
Did you read the quote right? It MIGHT be a turbo, but it's not going to be a hybrid thus far (surprising to me, as a hybrid would cure the torque issue and not add emissions).
I think they've got to get to nearly 300hp N/A, and then maybe there's a turbo model with more (350-400), otherwise that's a lot of cost/complexity for the 300 HP.
I think they've got to get to nearly 300hp N/A, and then maybe there's a turbo model with more (350-400), otherwise that's a lot of cost/complexity for the 300 HP.
10-29-15, 03:20 PM
#2824
Insane Burning Diarrhea
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Noo Yawk City / San Diego
Posts: 1,796
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
more detail, and no electric...yeah...
Mazda SkyACTIV-R rotary engine: turbo inevitable, no electrification
Mazda says the just announced rotary engine will first be introduced without any electrification, in order to showcase the company’s expertise in this field.
Speaking to the Australian media at the Tokyo Motor Show today, Mazda’s global boss of R&D, Kiyoshi Fujiwara, said that any initial release of the rotary engine would be without electrification, though he admitted turbocharging is on the agenda.
“If we can produce this kind of engine and this kind of product with rotary engine, firstly I would like to introduce rotary engine itself, no electrification,” Fujiwara said.
“Because if we had help of electrification, people will say this helped the rotary engine, therefore personally I want to introduce the rotary engine without electrification, as the first step, then with severe requirement for CO2 and emission systems, we continue to add some applications.”
Fujiwara also confirmed the rotary engine is a continuation of the work on the 16X, meaning the Mazda rotary engine of the future will be 1.6-litre in capacity. Known a the Renesis II, the 16x made its initial appearance in the Mazda Taiki concept car at the 2007 Tokyo Auto Show. At the time Mazda said it had around 223kW of power.
However, those power figures are likely to change considering the inherent torque defecit of rotary engines will likely lead to some form of assistant technology like turbocharging.
“Yes it is inevitable – [a] turbocharger is one of the big contributors for rotary engine in the future.”
Also, while hybridisation will not be available to start with, Fujiwara says that helping that initial take off speed could potentially be well served by an electric motor.
“Rotary engine has some weakness with low RPM in terms of torque, therefore if we can have a good motor system for helping for that kind of area for low RPM, weakness of the torque range, that is one of the solutions for the future.”
Much like the RX-8 introduced friction welding that filtered down the Mazda range, the new RX sports car will also serve as the basis for new technologies being introduced into the Mazda family.
“Firstly we use this new technology in new sports car then it can be delivered to other passenger cars.”
According to Fujiwara, the engine is very close to starting prototype testing, however the company is focused on making sure that the emission systems, fuel economy and reliability are addressed as top priority before the engine sees full-scale production.
Mazda SkyACTIV-R rotary engine: turbo inevitable, no electrification
Mazda says the just announced rotary engine will first be introduced without any electrification, in order to showcase the company’s expertise in this field.
Speaking to the Australian media at the Tokyo Motor Show today, Mazda’s global boss of R&D, Kiyoshi Fujiwara, said that any initial release of the rotary engine would be without electrification, though he admitted turbocharging is on the agenda.
“If we can produce this kind of engine and this kind of product with rotary engine, firstly I would like to introduce rotary engine itself, no electrification,” Fujiwara said.
“Because if we had help of electrification, people will say this helped the rotary engine, therefore personally I want to introduce the rotary engine without electrification, as the first step, then with severe requirement for CO2 and emission systems, we continue to add some applications.”
Fujiwara also confirmed the rotary engine is a continuation of the work on the 16X, meaning the Mazda rotary engine of the future will be 1.6-litre in capacity. Known a the Renesis II, the 16x made its initial appearance in the Mazda Taiki concept car at the 2007 Tokyo Auto Show. At the time Mazda said it had around 223kW of power.
However, those power figures are likely to change considering the inherent torque defecit of rotary engines will likely lead to some form of assistant technology like turbocharging.
“Yes it is inevitable – [a] turbocharger is one of the big contributors for rotary engine in the future.”
Also, while hybridisation will not be available to start with, Fujiwara says that helping that initial take off speed could potentially be well served by an electric motor.
“Rotary engine has some weakness with low RPM in terms of torque, therefore if we can have a good motor system for helping for that kind of area for low RPM, weakness of the torque range, that is one of the solutions for the future.”
Much like the RX-8 introduced friction welding that filtered down the Mazda range, the new RX sports car will also serve as the basis for new technologies being introduced into the Mazda family.
“Firstly we use this new technology in new sports car then it can be delivered to other passenger cars.”
According to Fujiwara, the engine is very close to starting prototype testing, however the company is focused on making sure that the emission systems, fuel economy and reliability are addressed as top priority before the engine sees full-scale production.
10-29-15, 03:31 PM
#2825
Well, they just completely re-Wanked the rotary into the stroker 16X so it is useless to speculate on its lack of torque (the traditional 10A based NA rotary problem), but we do know low rpm torque will be greatly improved.
Gaining low rpm torque without sacrificing efficiency and reliability is the whole point of re-engineering and re-tooling for the 16X.
------------
I personally don't have a problem with Mazda targeting the Cayman instead of the 911 turbo or GT3 for the initial 300hp release. Leave that to the GTR.
Targeting halo cars will lead to a whole bunch of compromises I don't prefer. High cost, lower sales, more driver aids, more weight.
I think it is a better strategy to offer a 450hp model later that will *selectively* target those halo cars in *specific* areas for marketing. Those areas would probably be the traditional Mazda strengths (skidpad, slalom, braking), but hopefully extend to track lap times.
------------
It sort of sounds like the chassis is more production ready that a concept from some of the recent Mazda quotes.
If that is true, we can see the entire front end must be composite to incorporate the curves. When they say they will employ the same light weight strategy as with the new MX-5 that would lead to a lighter than RX-8 chassis.
2017 NA model 300hp/300tq and 2,600lbs would be fun.
2020 high power model 450hp/400tq and 2,800 lbs would be fast. With Mazda's traditional handling strengths it could be blisteringly fast on the track.
Gaining low rpm torque without sacrificing efficiency and reliability is the whole point of re-engineering and re-tooling for the 16X.
------------
I personally don't have a problem with Mazda targeting the Cayman instead of the 911 turbo or GT3 for the initial 300hp release. Leave that to the GTR.
Targeting halo cars will lead to a whole bunch of compromises I don't prefer. High cost, lower sales, more driver aids, more weight.
I think it is a better strategy to offer a 450hp model later that will *selectively* target those halo cars in *specific* areas for marketing. Those areas would probably be the traditional Mazda strengths (skidpad, slalom, braking), but hopefully extend to track lap times.
------------
It sort of sounds like the chassis is more production ready that a concept from some of the recent Mazda quotes.
If that is true, we can see the entire front end must be composite to incorporate the curves. When they say they will employ the same light weight strategy as with the new MX-5 that would lead to a lighter than RX-8 chassis.
2017 NA model 300hp/300tq and 2,600lbs would be fun.
2020 high power model 450hp/400tq and 2,800 lbs would be fast. With Mazda's traditional handling strengths it could be blisteringly fast on the track.