arghx

iTrader: (3)

Alright, my battery and alternator are in good shape, all my connections are clean, starter is rebuilt, basically all the bases are covered, but occasionally I have to make a couple attempts to get the starter to turn. I know this is a common problem. So I read in the FD forums that you can wire in a relay to make sure the solenoid gets full voltage. the thread is here: https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/starter-click-click-problem-solved%7E%7E%7E-642253/page3/

anyway, I figured the starters and wiring can't be too different between the two cars, so I attempted to do this today on my 88 T2. I cut the maybe 16 gauge black/whitish wire that I believe goes to the "S" terminal on the starter solenoid. The side of the wire that comes from the starter cut relay went to the 86 terminal on my new relay. So the relay was wired like this:

86 terminal -- trigger from black/white wire on engine harness
30 terminal -- wire from relay back to the S terminal on starter
87 terminal -- fused wire from battery to relay
85 terminal -- ground

when I had it hooked up that way and put the key in the ignition, I immediately heard the fuel pump running like I had jumpered the fuel pump check connector, but of course I hadn't. I never actually attempted to turn the car over. Then I checked FSM page 50-16:



So is the ECU somehow receiving a start signal and then grounding the circuit opening relay? How does that work? Note that I have eliminated my fuel pump resistor relay. I just jumpered the bluish wires.

Is there some kind of diode I need to install or something? Or was this just a bad idea (I'm sure I can fix it by just restoring the original wire)? It seems like the FD guys do this with no problem though. I haven't looked at a detailed wiring diagram of the FD starting system however, just the pages in the starting section of their FSM. Maybe I hooked the relay up too close to the starter, and it needs to be before the starter cut relay?

HAILERS

Shoulda worked.

I've no idea why it didn't work.

Do you actually have a Starter Cut Relay in the car?

When you go to Start, you put power on the coil of the relay which is 86 on the relay. The 85 you have going to a gnd. So the relay should have pulled in which in turn makes the contacts inside the relay come together from the 30 and 87 and the starter should have run.

I have a similar arrangement. The relay is glued to the firewall near the Main Relay. The 85 is going to gnd. The 86 gets fed from where a BLUE jumper plug was in a connector. It is going to the Black/Green wire in that jumpered connector. It is the switch power that pulls the relay in.

Then I have a fused wire coming from the engine bay fuse box to 30. And 87 goes back to where the BLUE jumper was in the harness plug, and is connected to the Black/White wire in that connector that goes directly to the starter solenoid.

Really the same thing you have going. I'm fairly sure it matters not if the relays switch power goes to 85 or 86 or the ground is on 85 instead of 86.

ECU does not feed the fuel pump relay. There is a path from that start circuit to pin 3B on the ECU. That just lets the ECU know the driver is Starting the engine and it needs to switch to a START FUEL MAP internal to the ECU.

Oh. Wait a moment, I just woke up. Remember this: The fuel pump runs when you jumper the yellow fuel pump check connetor and the key is to ON. OR the fuel pump runs if the engine is actually running. OR the fuel pump runs if you HOLD the key to START.

I gotta think about this for a moment. I'll be back later. Busy right now. Just going to ON and NOT start should not feed the Circuit Opening Relay (fuel relay).

Answer this. Does the relay work when you actually try to start the car?

HAILERS

Your setup look similar to this jpg? If not, then switch the wires around on the relay to make it look like my jpg. No diode needed anywhere. Got the black/white wire going from the relay to the small blade on the starter solenoid??????? Should be.

arghx

iTrader: (3)

^ that is already my exact setup, or at least I think it is. I can double check. I cut the black/white wire right near the starter solenoid, not up next to the starter cut relay (it is a T2, it has factory alarm). I haven't tried to start the car yet. I was concerned when I heard the fuel pump running so I never turned the car over. Normally the pump runs for about 2 or 3 seconds to prime the system when I put the key in, then cuts off. Now it's running continously with the key in? I must have screwed something up. Weird thing is, I first tried unplugging the 86 terminal from my new relay (thus the black/white wire is pretty much connected to nothing) and yet it was still doing the fuel pump thing.

I am going to check and make sure that my black/white wire is insulated properly and isn't touching the big terminal on the starter itself (B terminal?)

pistones

iTrader: (5)

why are you trying to band aid the starting system ? i think it would be wiser to fix the actual problem than to add something else to the mix.

NZConvertible

There should be no need to add a relay. If there is, something needs to be fixed...

Will_s

iTrader: (7)

I had this same problem with it engaging the starter but not turning it over with the key. Turned out to be a loose connection at the main fuse box and the starter solenoid wasn't getting enough power. I seam to remember a few other people having this same issue and fixed it by tightening the connections at the fuse box.

KhanArtisT

iTrader: (2)

Yeah I don't think adding a relay is the best way of fixing this problem either. I have this too, I switched out the starter with my friend's and it still only clicks sometimes. Do ignition switches usually go bad with our cars? I might swap mine out from a parts car and see if that fixes it.

HAILERS

I think it's a wise decision to install a new relay instead of installing a new ignition switch. I loathe messing with ignition switch change outs.

He's already changed the starter out and checked out the system. The most likely candidate is a bad ignition switch. Ignition switch is a four letter word in my dictionary.

No series four car should be having the fuel pump run when you initially turn the key On. There is no PRIME on a RX-7.

If you've been Really hearing the pump run when putting the key to On, then either the fuel pump check connector is jumpered or the vane in the afm is making the internal fuel pump switch internal to the afm. But if that were so, the pump would run all the time the key is put to ON, not just for a moment.

I'd do two things. Turn the key to On. If you hear the pump running, go make sure the fuel pump check connector isn't jumpered. Not jumpered? Then reach over and pull the plug off the afm. Pump still running? Should not be running. No reason for it to be running. There's no ground being put on the circuit opening relay.

Tell you what. Pull the wires off the new relay and let them dangle. Then go turn the key ON and see if the fuel pump is still running. I don't see how any of the wires to the new relay could possibly make that pump run. The only possibility would be if 12vdc is somehow being put on the part of the black/white wire that is going to the Starter Cut Relay when you go to ON. And that can't be if the new relay is wired like the diagram. Hell, I can't miswire that relay to make the pump run if I tried.

And the black/white wire, the half cut in two that is going to the Starter solenoid, should still be going to the small terminal on the starter solenoid.

arghx

iTrader: (3)

I've decided to scrap the project. I hooked up the original wiring again and the problem went away.

I think the reason this is behaving strangely is because I do not have the stock ECU. I have a Power FC with the Banzai Racing adapter kit. When you install that kit, obviously you remove the AFM which is supposed to ground the circuit opening relay to turn on the fuel pump. To get the car to start properly, when you install the Power FC you run a wire from the Power FC harness adapter to the brown wire on connector FEM-02 (X-16?). This supplies ground to the circuit opening relay when you start the car, in place of what the airflow meter normally does. The fact that I have a power FC also explains why my fuel pump primes for a second or two when I turn the key on and I guess it's not supposed to do that on the stock ECU.

The only thing I can think of is that the Power FC expects some signal that my relay was not providing. And honestly, it's not worth the trouble to figure it all out. I rarely get the "click, click, start" problem these days. It's a minor and rare annoyance that I can deal with, especially for a car that's not a daily driver. I just took this project on because it seemed like a cheap thing to do to the car to kill some time now that the weather is warming up and I really want to work on the car.

Thanks for all the help. And for anyone reading this thread... the relay that I hooked up should work for everybody on stock ECU if you don't feel like spending a ton of time and money swapping out ignition switches or hunting down other BS problems that are not directly related to the battery or starter.

bcrx7

FYI,

I have a 1990 RX7 and cleaning up the switch worked perfectly! Thanks guys! The car would start, but only every once in a while. Sometimes it would take 10 times. It only took me about 5 minutes to unscrew the switch and pop the back of it off. A little word of advice, be carefull when prying off the cover. There are lots of springs and parts on the inside of the switch.

Banzai-Racing

iTrader: (11)

I assure you it is not the Power FC installation that is causing the "click, click, start", it is most likely your ignition switch as Bcrx7 has mentioned.