Polyurethane bushes and "Rear steer"
12-23-07, 06:07 PM
#1
Glowing brake disks
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Polyurethane bushes and "Rear steer"
(Apologies if this has already been discussed. I searched, but couldn't find anything relevant...)
As a holiday project, I'm seriously considering replacing all of the bushes on my S5 TII, since they all look like banana peels and the rear suspension creaks like an old horse-drawn carriage when the it gets hot outside. I've noticed that mazdatrix have a complete polyurethane bushing kit at a very reasonable price. At the same time, I wouldn't mind giving the suspension a firmer feel too... Its a given that these bushes are stiffer than the stock rubber bushes, but I'm curious to find out what effect these bushes might have on the rear steer (DTSS?).
Has anyone done anything similar on their FC? What would be the best thing to do? Put in rear steer eliminator bushes or keep the existing ones? To be honest, I quite like the feel of activating the rear steer on hard cornering, but if its gonna mess around with the balance of the car, it would probably be better to get rid of it, right?
Thanks for reading,
- TT
As a holiday project, I'm seriously considering replacing all of the bushes on my S5 TII, since they all look like banana peels and the rear suspension creaks like an old horse-drawn carriage when the it gets hot outside. I've noticed that mazdatrix have a complete polyurethane bushing kit at a very reasonable price. At the same time, I wouldn't mind giving the suspension a firmer feel too... Its a given that these bushes are stiffer than the stock rubber bushes, but I'm curious to find out what effect these bushes might have on the rear steer (DTSS?).
Has anyone done anything similar on their FC? What would be the best thing to do? Put in rear steer eliminator bushes or keep the existing ones? To be honest, I quite like the feel of activating the rear steer on hard cornering, but if its gonna mess around with the balance of the car, it would probably be better to get rid of it, right?
Thanks for reading,
- TT
12-24-07, 05:06 AM
#7
Glowing brake disks
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OK, so general consensus is to get rid of the DTSS.
The rear steer system seems to work on my FC at the moment, but I know that the stock rubber bushes are shot... Guess what I was trying to find out whether anyone tried to keep the rear steer system after changing to polyurethane bushes. But now that I think about it some more, its probably not a practical thing to do, since the suspension geometry will get a stiffer... Makes sense to just get rid of the DTSS all together if the bushes are gonna be upgraded.
Anyway, that's the end of my rant. Thanks for your feedback and happy holidays!!!
- TT
The rear steer system seems to work on my FC at the moment, but I know that the stock rubber bushes are shot... Guess what I was trying to find out whether anyone tried to keep the rear steer system after changing to polyurethane bushes. But now that I think about it some more, its probably not a practical thing to do, since the suspension geometry will get a stiffer... Makes sense to just get rid of the DTSS all together if the bushes are gonna be upgraded.
Anyway, that's the end of my rant. Thanks for your feedback and happy holidays!!!
- TT
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12-24-07, 10:42 AM
#10
No, that is not the general consensus.
That is the groupspeak that happens on internet forums. Most of the people on this board who tell you to remove the DTSS have not done so, have never had a properly functioning suspension or a correct suspension alignment. They are merely repeating what is said elsewhere. There is not much experience or critical thinking involved.
Most of them will bench racing the benefits concerning 'what is faster/more predictable on the track', as if most of them have ever been on a track. And as if what works on a track car is appropriate for a street car.
There is a thread right now with a 23yo who has spun 3-4 times on the street. He claims to have spun 30-40 time on the auto-x. According to him, he has bad shocks, bad bushings all the way around and bald tires. He doesn't know if his alignment is correct, yet he has doen the DTSS replacement. His car has 'knife-edge' handling. This is likely typical of many DTSS replacement clients.
Look, if the DTSS is worn, it does not cause understeering, oversteering, wandering in the lane. All that would happen is the rear steer effect will happen at a lower gforce; it is designed to happen between .4 and .5 g's.
Here are some links to single posts. Read all these thoroughly. These are written by thoughtful members with experience in life and cars.
https://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php...1&postcount=11
https://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php...67&postcount=2
https://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php...4&postcount=15
https://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php...5&postcount=29
Here is a thread that is pretty thorough in discussion. Try to distinguish between the 'me-too' rhetoric and the 'wanna be drifter/racers" and the posts that are informative based on actual knowledge and facts.
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...9&page=1&pp=15
I have done some bushing replacement on my 90 vert, installed lowering springs, new shocks, new tires and a perfect alignment. I am quite happy with the handling of my car and would not trade my DTSS for any imagined benefit from the DTSS eliminators. Mine is a street car, not a race car. I want to be able to go fast and safe, returning home to the people who depend on me. I don't think my vert gives up anything to my Bro's Porsche 996 at 8/10ths in the twisties (except HP). At 9/10ths and 10/10ths, that is an entirely different matter.
I can't tell you what you should do, because it is your car. Make your own informed decision, but do it only after everything else on your suspension is correct: alignment, bushings, shocks, tires.
Good Luck.
That is the groupspeak that happens on internet forums. Most of the people on this board who tell you to remove the DTSS have not done so, have never had a properly functioning suspension or a correct suspension alignment. They are merely repeating what is said elsewhere. There is not much experience or critical thinking involved.
Most of them will bench racing the benefits concerning 'what is faster/more predictable on the track', as if most of them have ever been on a track. And as if what works on a track car is appropriate for a street car.
There is a thread right now with a 23yo who has spun 3-4 times on the street. He claims to have spun 30-40 time on the auto-x. According to him, he has bad shocks, bad bushings all the way around and bald tires. He doesn't know if his alignment is correct, yet he has doen the DTSS replacement. His car has 'knife-edge' handling. This is likely typical of many DTSS replacement clients.
Look, if the DTSS is worn, it does not cause understeering, oversteering, wandering in the lane. All that would happen is the rear steer effect will happen at a lower gforce; it is designed to happen between .4 and .5 g's.
Here are some links to single posts. Read all these thoroughly. These are written by thoughtful members with experience in life and cars.
https://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php...1&postcount=11
https://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php...67&postcount=2
https://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php...4&postcount=15
https://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php...5&postcount=29
Here is a thread that is pretty thorough in discussion. Try to distinguish between the 'me-too' rhetoric and the 'wanna be drifter/racers" and the posts that are informative based on actual knowledge and facts.
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...9&page=1&pp=15
I have done some bushing replacement on my 90 vert, installed lowering springs, new shocks, new tires and a perfect alignment. I am quite happy with the handling of my car and would not trade my DTSS for any imagined benefit from the DTSS eliminators. Mine is a street car, not a race car. I want to be able to go fast and safe, returning home to the people who depend on me. I don't think my vert gives up anything to my Bro's Porsche 996 at 8/10ths in the twisties (except HP). At 9/10ths and 10/10ths, that is an entirely different matter.
I can't tell you what you should do, because it is your car. Make your own informed decision, but do it only after everything else on your suspension is correct: alignment, bushings, shocks, tires.
Good Luck.
12-24-07, 06:39 PM
#12
Here is another couple.
https://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php...78&postcount=3
https://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php...8&postcount=12
https://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php...9&postcount=10
https://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php...88&postcount=8
https://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php...19&postcount=5
https://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php...48&postcount=4
My approach is to replace everything else, then determine if the 'problem' still exists. And if there is not 'problem' to solve, iow if you are just looking to change them because everyone say to change them, then DON'T.
Problem is, no one really knows if their DTSS is shot or not, so they hear 'replace replace replace'. My car had 125,000 miles and was 16 yo. It didn't need it.
12-24-07, 08:38 PM
#13
CC of L-Squared Shots
AS a "wannabe racer", It is solely up to you. To me, I find adjusting for DTSS or non-DTSS normal. If you want it, keep it. if you don't, then eliminate it. Hell, just keep your DTSS and eliminators around just in case you want to stick it on or off.
12-25-07, 02:06 AM
#14
Canned. I got CORNED!
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i'm replacing mine, but it's because when I had the hubs off to do the rear wheel bearings, the bushings just FELL out of the hubs....completely rotted out. It was absolutely amazing, they looked like they were made of dirt with little rubber chunks still in it.
If you decide to keep them, I reccommend taking the hubs off and having a look at them to make sure they are in decent condition.
As for the urathane bushing kit, it's a great idea!
If you decide to keep them, I reccommend taking the hubs off and having a look at them to make sure they are in decent condition.
As for the urathane bushing kit, it's a great idea!
12-25-07, 04:20 PM
#16
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I got rid of my dtss, I autox and do track days a few times a year. With it on, at first i didnt notice it until I got better at driving and started to play with slip angles. The dtss makes the rear feel like its gonna step out but it doesn't. This makes me nervous when entering a corner and when gasing out of corners. I hesitate when doing those things and twitch the steering/ feather the gas. Also when I mess up and slide, the catch is always violent and snappy. This is partly cause i suck i assumed, but i changed out the bushings to delrin
With delrin, the car actually slides easier, definately have to be smoother to keep the back in check. But catching slides is easier to bring it in smoothly because the car is more readable. After driving on the delrin, it is actually easier to keep the back in check even though it is easier to get it to slide, completely easier to control. On the track i can turn in and get the back to step out a little and steer partially with the throttle even in my slow *** NA. I can slide without being nervous cause i feel more in control of the car. My friend driving behind me says he can even see my slip angle through turns at buttonwillow. Instead of hitting the curbs on exits front wheels first id hit with both front and rear at the same time exiting the s turns.
I definately like the eliminators more although i dont have a gtech or any telemetrics to see if the eliminators can pull the same g forces as the dtss. I might have lost grip, I don't really know, but I do know that I am faster without them. My dtss were probably worn, but they seemed to work ok and when i took them off, the rubber was intact as well as the metal things on em. They were stuck so i had to cut the dtss bushing off the bolt.
With delrin, the car actually slides easier, definately have to be smoother to keep the back in check. But catching slides is easier to bring it in smoothly because the car is more readable. After driving on the delrin, it is actually easier to keep the back in check even though it is easier to get it to slide, completely easier to control. On the track i can turn in and get the back to step out a little and steer partially with the throttle even in my slow *** NA. I can slide without being nervous cause i feel more in control of the car. My friend driving behind me says he can even see my slip angle through turns at buttonwillow. Instead of hitting the curbs on exits front wheels first id hit with both front and rear at the same time exiting the s turns.
I definately like the eliminators more although i dont have a gtech or any telemetrics to see if the eliminators can pull the same g forces as the dtss. I might have lost grip, I don't really know, but I do know that I am faster without them. My dtss were probably worn, but they seemed to work ok and when i took them off, the rubber was intact as well as the metal things on em. They were stuck so i had to cut the dtss bushing off the bolt.
12-25-07, 11:12 PM
#17
I got rid of my dtss, I autox and do track days a few times a year. With it on, at first i didnt notice it until I got better at driving and started to play with slip angles. The dtss makes the rear feel like its gonna step out but it doesn't. This makes me nervous when entering a corner and when gasing out of corners. I hesitate when doing those things and twitch the steering/ feather the gas. Also when I mess up and slide, the catch is always violent and snappy. This is partly cause i suck i assumed, but i changed out the bushings to delrin
With delrin, the car actually slides easier, definately have to be smoother to keep the back in check. But catching slides is easier to bring it in smoothly because the car is more readable. After driving on the delrin, it is actually easier to keep the back in check even though it is easier to get it to slide, completely easier to control. On the track i can turn in and get the back to step out a little and steer partially with the throttle even in my slow *** NA. I can slide without being nervous cause i feel more in control of the car. My friend driving behind me says he can even see my slip angle through turns at buttonwillow. Instead of hitting the curbs on exits front wheels first id hit with both front and rear at the same time exiting the s turns.
I definately like the eliminators more although i dont have a gtech or any telemetrics to see if the eliminators can pull the same g forces as the dtss. I might have lost grip, I don't really know, but I do know that I am faster without them. My dtss were probably worn, but they seemed to work ok and when i took them off, the rubber was intact as well as the metal things on em. They were stuck so i had to cut the dtss bushing off the bolt.
With delrin, the car actually slides easier, definately have to be smoother to keep the back in check. But catching slides is easier to bring it in smoothly because the car is more readable. After driving on the delrin, it is actually easier to keep the back in check even though it is easier to get it to slide, completely easier to control. On the track i can turn in and get the back to step out a little and steer partially with the throttle even in my slow *** NA. I can slide without being nervous cause i feel more in control of the car. My friend driving behind me says he can even see my slip angle through turns at buttonwillow. Instead of hitting the curbs on exits front wheels first id hit with both front and rear at the same time exiting the s turns.
I definately like the eliminators more although i dont have a gtech or any telemetrics to see if the eliminators can pull the same g forces as the dtss. I might have lost grip, I don't really know, but I do know that I am faster without them. My dtss were probably worn, but they seemed to work ok and when i took them off, the rubber was intact as well as the metal things on em. They were stuck so i had to cut the dtss bushing off the bolt.
12-26-07, 02:39 AM
#18
It'd be REALLY nice if we had an affordable replacement system that kept it working when the old ones wear out. Buying the whole hub assembly is just rediculous. Mine seems to work just fine, but also my undercarriage seems to have taken less wear and tear from the roads than some other FC's i've seen/owned.
- Jared
- Jared
12-26-07, 09:39 AM
#20
Uh oh, yet another DTSS debate. Just search and decide for yourself. I'll summarize the two sides:
1. It's good if it still works, bad otherwise. Eliminate it only if yours is bad.
2. It started bad and only got worse. Eliminate it regardless.
I'd go strongly with #1. Rear steer has always been unpopular with the public, but those who actually know about it and who have tested it find it to be a significant handling improvement (just search and see). And several cars after the FC copied the FC and use the system even to this day. Most/many use the same compliant bushing method. The car companies have now learned that it's wise not to advertise it much.
1. It's good if it still works, bad otherwise. Eliminate it only if yours is bad.
2. It started bad and only got worse. Eliminate it regardless.
I'd go strongly with #1. Rear steer has always been unpopular with the public, but those who actually know about it and who have tested it find it to be a significant handling improvement (just search and see). And several cars after the FC copied the FC and use the system even to this day. Most/many use the same compliant bushing method. The car companies have now learned that it's wise not to advertise it much.
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