NA 13b Warping Apex Seals! Need assistance..
04-05-23, 10:19 AM
#26
Any reason why your timing map looks like a distributor curve from the 1970s? It's flat from 3500 rpm up. I don't know if anyone still has the stock s5 n/a timing maps saved somewhere (I struggled to find them) but you can see the stock Rx-8 timing map and Turbo II maps. Obviously you are not boosted... but your timing maps look fundamentally wrong to me on the rpm axis gradiant. There's too much advance at low rpm (I'm assuming you don't have a bunch of modifiers running and this is a representative chart) and your timing is flat by mid rpm. It's like a centrifugal advance on a 60s muscle car or a 1st gen rx-7. The only reason they had timing curves like that is because they didn't have computers.
understanding turbo rotary timing better - RX7Club.com - Mazda RX7 Forum
Rx-8 OEM timing maps. Here they are. - RX7Club.com - Mazda RX7 Forum
You can see my "conservative" map up to 1psi here: Rtek New boost-based timing maps - RX7Club.com - Mazda RX7 Forum . Start with that and modify.
EDIT: I recognize that you have a lot of timing at low rpm/low load , and that may have been conceived as an attempt for idle/driveability (assuming you care). This is another topic we can discuss. Unless you have some kind of wild porting on the primaries, you're much better off using less timing and more air (TB adjustment and idle air/bypass air valve) to control idle, which is what the stock system does. Remember stock timing is -5 with 15 split at idle/no accessory load! There's a whole science behind it called torque reserve driveability tuning that I could get into but that doesn't directly address your broken apex seal problem.
understanding turbo rotary timing better - RX7Club.com - Mazda RX7 Forum
Rx-8 OEM timing maps. Here they are. - RX7Club.com - Mazda RX7 Forum
You can see my "conservative" map up to 1psi here: Rtek New boost-based timing maps - RX7Club.com - Mazda RX7 Forum . Start with that and modify.
EDIT: I recognize that you have a lot of timing at low rpm/low load , and that may have been conceived as an attempt for idle/driveability (assuming you care). This is another topic we can discuss. Unless you have some kind of wild porting on the primaries, you're much better off using less timing and more air (TB adjustment and idle air/bypass air valve) to control idle, which is what the stock system does. Remember stock timing is -5 with 15 split at idle/no accessory load! There's a whole science behind it called torque reserve driveability tuning that I could get into but that doesn't directly address your broken apex seal problem.
Last edited by arghx; 04-05-23 at 11:09 AM.
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diabolical1 (04-05-23)
04-13-23, 09:48 AM
#28
Full Member
I'm having the same issues but at higher power levels with the same symptoms. I just warped my rear apex seals again I believe. I have an adaptronic ECU. Im still looking for my smoking gun but I have now added a rear rotor fuel compensation and am going to drive it to see if my compression rises. My motor can still start and idle hot.
04-14-23, 08:43 PM
#29
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Any reason why your timing map looks like a distributor curve from the 1970s? It's flat from 3500 rpm up. I don't know if anyone still has the stock s5 n/a timing maps saved somewhere (I struggled to find them) but you can see the stock Rx-8 timing map and Turbo II maps. Obviously you are not boosted... but your timing maps look fundamentally wrong to me on the rpm axis gradiant. There's too much advance at low rpm (I'm assuming you don't have a bunch of modifiers running and this is a representative chart) and your timing is flat by mid rpm. It's like a centrifugal advance on a 60s muscle car or a 1st gen rx-7. The only reason they had timing curves like that is because they didn't have computers.
understanding turbo rotary timing better - RX7Club.com - Mazda RX7 Forum
Rx-8 OEM timing maps. Here they are. - RX7Club.com - Mazda RX7 Forum
You can see my "conservative" map up to 1psi here: Rtek New boost-based timing maps - RX7Club.com - Mazda RX7 Forum . Start with that and modify.
EDIT: I recognize that you have a lot of timing at low rpm/low load , and that may have been conceived as an attempt for idle/driveability (assuming you care). This is another topic we can discuss. Unless you have some kind of wild porting on the primaries, you're much better off using less timing and more air (TB adjustment and idle air/bypass air valve) to control idle, which is what the stock system does. Remember stock timing is -5 with 15 split at idle/no accessory load! There's a whole science behind it called torque reserve driveability tuning that I could get into but that doesn't directly address your broken apex seal problem.
understanding turbo rotary timing better - RX7Club.com - Mazda RX7 Forum
Rx-8 OEM timing maps. Here they are. - RX7Club.com - Mazda RX7 Forum
You can see my "conservative" map up to 1psi here: Rtek New boost-based timing maps - RX7Club.com - Mazda RX7 Forum . Start with that and modify.
EDIT: I recognize that you have a lot of timing at low rpm/low load , and that may have been conceived as an attempt for idle/driveability (assuming you care). This is another topic we can discuss. Unless you have some kind of wild porting on the primaries, you're much better off using less timing and more air (TB adjustment and idle air/bypass air valve) to control idle, which is what the stock system does. Remember stock timing is -5 with 15 split at idle/no accessory load! There's a whole science behind it called torque reserve driveability tuning that I could get into but that doesn't directly address your broken apex seal problem.
I dont think I have bunch of modifiers on the timing map but I posted the tune file so someone can correct me if I'm wrong, again I'm not really a tuner. You mentioned excessive advance at low rpm - do you feel this is serious enough an issue that it could be contributing to the seal warp? Thanks also for the additional timing information, I will give that a look.
At this point the car still starts up just fine, I plan to drop a different ECU in there, beat the crap out of it on the dyno with an identical or similar tune, and see if the compression decreases any further. This may at least validate my Haltech suspicions.
04-17-23, 11:47 AM
#30
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so i went down the rabbit hole and looked at every engine failure thread i could find here that mentions warping.
i was looking for things that these builds have in common, and i didn't know what that was going to be. i have had bad haltech experiences in the past, so if they all had haltechs i wouldn't have been surprised.
but they didn't. people are warping seals on basically any ecu.
there are a lot of haltechs on the list (8/28) however it seems more related to the complexity of the build than the ECU choice.
so far it seems like the builds that have problems its a new engine, new ecu, new crank pickup, and that is a lot of things to figure out.
to go from a stock ecu, or PFC to the haltech is a big jump, its also really invasive to wire it up.
it also seems like the aftermarket seals aren't as forgiving as the Mazda ones. i also think that there may be a issue with the aftermarket seal tolerances, some people end up with the tolerances stacked up and its not fine.
what you should do. keep in mind that this is just good practice
you must verify that TDC on the pulley is TDC on the engine.
you then should check that the spark on all 4 plugs is at the right time
its not easy to do, but if you can check that timing stays where it should (no timing drift) up at high RPM that is a good idea.
on the fuel side its a good idea to check that the pump gets within about 0.5v of the battery
and you can/should check fuel pressure.
also its a good idea to tee a gauge in with the FPR vacuum line to make sure you get vacuum (and boost) there are ports on the FC manifold that only do one or the other, so its a good idea to check that.
if you're not running factory injectors its possible they aren't matching sizes, etc
basically anything you can test/verify before you put on the car you should
i was looking for things that these builds have in common, and i didn't know what that was going to be. i have had bad haltech experiences in the past, so if they all had haltechs i wouldn't have been surprised.
but they didn't. people are warping seals on basically any ecu.
there are a lot of haltechs on the list (8/28) however it seems more related to the complexity of the build than the ECU choice.
so far it seems like the builds that have problems its a new engine, new ecu, new crank pickup, and that is a lot of things to figure out.
to go from a stock ecu, or PFC to the haltech is a big jump, its also really invasive to wire it up.
it also seems like the aftermarket seals aren't as forgiving as the Mazda ones. i also think that there may be a issue with the aftermarket seal tolerances, some people end up with the tolerances stacked up and its not fine.
what you should do. keep in mind that this is just good practice
you must verify that TDC on the pulley is TDC on the engine.
you then should check that the spark on all 4 plugs is at the right time
its not easy to do, but if you can check that timing stays where it should (no timing drift) up at high RPM that is a good idea.
on the fuel side its a good idea to check that the pump gets within about 0.5v of the battery
and you can/should check fuel pressure.
also its a good idea to tee a gauge in with the FPR vacuum line to make sure you get vacuum (and boost) there are ports on the FC manifold that only do one or the other, so its a good idea to check that.
if you're not running factory injectors its possible they aren't matching sizes, etc
basically anything you can test/verify before you put on the car you should
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diabolical1 (04-18-23)
04-17-23, 12:35 PM
#31
Old [Sch|F]ool
When people say they warped a seal, are they physically measuring the seal against a straightedge or just saying "yep, she's warped a seal mate" before even pulling the engine apart?
Poor exhaust porting can cause severe wear in the center of the sliding surface, but measurement will prove out that the seal isn't warped, just heavily worn in the middle.
Poor exhaust porting can cause severe wear in the center of the sliding surface, but measurement will prove out that the seal isn't warped, just heavily worn in the middle.
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diabolical1 (04-18-23)
04-17-23, 01:58 PM
#32
Like you say, apex seal worn in the center is called "warped" around here.
Its usually from the rotor housing surface distortion at the spark plug area as evidenced by the wear and low spot on the rotor housing.
The cause is usually heat input from detonation and/or the resultant vapor pocket in the cooling system at the leading spark plugs.
If you keep running the motor compression can come back as the apex seal wears back to match the undistorted rotor housing shape.
Often the extreme heat input has also flattened corner seal springs and often broken corner seals from side seal expansion.
Its usually from the rotor housing surface distortion at the spark plug area as evidenced by the wear and low spot on the rotor housing.
The cause is usually heat input from detonation and/or the resultant vapor pocket in the cooling system at the leading spark plugs.
If you keep running the motor compression can come back as the apex seal wears back to match the undistorted rotor housing shape.
Often the extreme heat input has also flattened corner seal springs and often broken corner seals from side seal expansion.
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diabolical1 (04-18-23)
04-17-23, 01:59 PM
#33
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When people say they warped a seal, are they physically measuring the seal against a straightedge or just saying "yep, she's warped a seal mate" before even pulling the engine apart?
Poor exhaust porting can cause severe wear in the center of the sliding surface, but measurement will prove out that the seal isn't warped, just heavily worn in the middle.
Poor exhaust porting can cause severe wear in the center of the sliding surface, but measurement will prove out that the seal isn't warped, just heavily worn in the middle.
04-17-23, 02:05 PM
#34
i was looking for things that these builds have in common, and i didn't know what that was going to be. i have had bad haltech experiences in the past, so if they all had haltechs i wouldn't have been surprised.
but they didn't. people are warping seals on basically any ecu.
there are a lot of haltechs on the list (8/28) however it seems more related to the complexity of the build than the ECU choice.
but they didn't. people are warping seals on basically any ecu.
there are a lot of haltechs on the list (8/28) however it seems more related to the complexity of the build than the ECU choice.
Other possible common threads to "warped" apex seals I can think of are the popularity of softer than OEM apex seals and the recent popularity of Air Separation Tank deletion on high power turbo rotaries.
04-17-23, 02:34 PM
#35
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i'll add that one as well.
i will also add that the usual story is something like this "zomg we just put a new engine in with xyz seal, and my new whizzbang EFI ecu and blah blah name parts. we broke it in for 2,000 miles and it was fine so then it was time to dyno/go to track!!!!"
next post is like "we did 4 runs and now it won't start"
it seems there is a heat component, as its usually ok for quite a while without boost or rpm, but as soon as you rev it up its dead
04-17-23, 06:34 PM
#36
Old [Sch|F]ool
Cooling system attention is absolutely critical as you point out. If you are not running underdrive pulleys and running the engine over 6000 for extended periods, the engine is running hot even if the water temperature says everything is okay. I can't find the chart right now, Racing Beat had a whole list of water pump maximum speeds before they began to cavitate, and stock water pump ratios, an amazing number of rotaries essentially do not have cooling systems over 6000rpm as the water pumps spend their energy making vapor trails in the coolant instead of pumping it. No flow = no internal cooling system pressure = coolant boils around the spark plugs = metal runs hot because there is an insulating layer of steam between the metal and the coolant. And the coolant stays (relatively) cool because it isn't transferring very much heat from the metal anymore.
Hot rotor housings require more oil, too
My rotor housings looked a lot better after I got one of those tiny 3" or so crank pulleys. Charging system is not so great at low engine speed but that is the sacrifice we make to keep the engine happy at high speed.
Hot rotor housings require more oil, too
My rotor housings looked a lot better after I got one of those tiny 3" or so crank pulleys. Charging system is not so great at low engine speed but that is the sacrifice we make to keep the engine happy at high speed.
Last edited by peejay; 04-17-23 at 06:37 PM.
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diabolical1 (04-18-23)
04-18-23, 09:07 AM
#38
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Mazda calls it Delta S. its the rotor housing width minus apex seal length. Mazda doesn't make a big deal about it, so i'm not sure people actually measure apex seal length
theory is that the aftermarket seals vary in length more than the Mazda ones, so if you get seals that are a little long, and when everything heats up there is nowhere for them to go so they bend (the Mazda seals snap the corner off)
going the next step with this is to open that clearance like you would with a piston ring on a V8
https://www.rx7club.com/single-turbo.../#post11340875
it would be really hard to say that this is a problem, you'd need to have good before and after measurements and we just don't
theory is that the aftermarket seals vary in length more than the Mazda ones, so if you get seals that are a little long, and when everything heats up there is nowhere for them to go so they bend (the Mazda seals snap the corner off)
going the next step with this is to open that clearance like you would with a piston ring on a V8
https://www.rx7club.com/single-turbo.../#post11340875
it would be really hard to say that this is a problem, you'd need to have good before and after measurements and we just don't
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diabolical1 (04-18-23)
04-21-23, 04:13 PM
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after re-reading the blurb (there is a paragraph and a chart), i kind of wonder how they did the testing.
04-24-23, 10:34 AM
#40
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Thread Starter
so i went down the rabbit hole and looked at every engine failure thread i could find here that mentions warping.
i was looking for things that these builds have in common, and i didn't know what that was going to be. i have had bad haltech experiences in the past, so if they all had haltechs i wouldn't have been surprised.
but they didn't. people are warping seals on basically any ecu.
there are a lot of haltechs on the list (8/28) however it seems more related to the complexity of the build than the ECU choice.
so far it seems like the builds that have problems its a new engine, new ecu, new crank pickup, and that is a lot of things to figure out.
to go from a stock ecu, or PFC to the haltech is a big jump, its also really invasive to wire it up.
it also seems like the aftermarket seals aren't as forgiving as the Mazda ones. i also think that there may be a issue with the aftermarket seal tolerances, some people end up with the tolerances stacked up and its not fine.
what you should do. keep in mind that this is just good practice
you must verify that TDC on the pulley is TDC on the engine.
you then should check that the spark on all 4 plugs is at the right time
its not easy to do, but if you can check that timing stays where it should (no timing drift) up at high RPM that is a good idea.
on the fuel side its a good idea to check that the pump gets within about 0.5v of the battery
and you can/should check fuel pressure.
also its a good idea to tee a gauge in with the FPR vacuum line to make sure you get vacuum (and boost) there are ports on the FC manifold that only do one or the other, so its a good idea to check that.
if you're not running factory injectors its possible they aren't matching sizes, etc
basically anything you can test/verify before you put on the car you should
i was looking for things that these builds have in common, and i didn't know what that was going to be. i have had bad haltech experiences in the past, so if they all had haltechs i wouldn't have been surprised.
but they didn't. people are warping seals on basically any ecu.
there are a lot of haltechs on the list (8/28) however it seems more related to the complexity of the build than the ECU choice.
so far it seems like the builds that have problems its a new engine, new ecu, new crank pickup, and that is a lot of things to figure out.
to go from a stock ecu, or PFC to the haltech is a big jump, its also really invasive to wire it up.
it also seems like the aftermarket seals aren't as forgiving as the Mazda ones. i also think that there may be a issue with the aftermarket seal tolerances, some people end up with the tolerances stacked up and its not fine.
what you should do. keep in mind that this is just good practice
you must verify that TDC on the pulley is TDC on the engine.
you then should check that the spark on all 4 plugs is at the right time
its not easy to do, but if you can check that timing stays where it should (no timing drift) up at high RPM that is a good idea.
on the fuel side its a good idea to check that the pump gets within about 0.5v of the battery
and you can/should check fuel pressure.
also its a good idea to tee a gauge in with the FPR vacuum line to make sure you get vacuum (and boost) there are ports on the FC manifold that only do one or the other, so its a good idea to check that.
if you're not running factory injectors its possible they aren't matching sizes, etc
basically anything you can test/verify before you put on the car you should
But I suppose I never truly verified that. So I tried to mechanically verify TDC to see if the pulley agreed. I followed the procedure in this video:
Question 1: Is the method in that video legit? - I centered an apex seal in the T2 spark plug hole, marked pulley at timing mark, then rotated motor to center that same apex seal in L2, marked pulley. Exactly halfway between the marks landed on 10 degrees BTDC.
Question 2: If that method is legit, how the heck can the RB pulley be off 10 degrees? I am running an S4 cover on an S5 engine but I verified the timing marks are in identical locations on both covers.
Thanks!
04-24-23, 11:44 AM
#41
Thanks for putting some time into this. I was about to respond about how I have done all of the things you mentioned but then i re-read your first suggestion: "Make sure TDC on the pulley is TDC on the engine." I breezed over that because I am running the Racing Beat pulley with the marks clearly labeled: https://www.racingbeat.com/RX7-1986-...tem/11469.html . As this part is universal for almost all rotary engines and the hub and pulley are one piece and can only go on the shaft in one orientation, my assumption was that the TDC mark on this pulley must always be correct when installed.
But I suppose I never truly verified that. So I tried to mechanically verify TDC to see if the pulley agreed. I followed the procedure in this video: https://youtu.be/TlIu-J4iw9k . The result was that true TDC was showing at the 10 degree BTDC mark on the pulley. If true, that means the engine has been advanced an extra 10 degrees.
Question 1: Is the method in that video legit? - I centered an apex seal in the T2 spark plug hole, marked pulley at timing mark, then rotated motor to center that same apex seal in L2, marked pulley. Exactly halfway between the marks landed on 10 degrees BTDC.
Question 2: If that method is legit, how the heck can the RB pulley be off 10 degrees? I am running an S4 cover on an S5 engine but I verified the timing marks are in identical locations on both covers.
Thanks!
But I suppose I never truly verified that. So I tried to mechanically verify TDC to see if the pulley agreed. I followed the procedure in this video: https://youtu.be/TlIu-J4iw9k . The result was that true TDC was showing at the 10 degree BTDC mark on the pulley. If true, that means the engine has been advanced an extra 10 degrees.
Question 1: Is the method in that video legit? - I centered an apex seal in the T2 spark plug hole, marked pulley at timing mark, then rotated motor to center that same apex seal in L2, marked pulley. Exactly halfway between the marks landed on 10 degrees BTDC.
Question 2: If that method is legit, how the heck can the RB pulley be off 10 degrees? I am running an S4 cover on an S5 engine but I verified the timing marks are in identical locations on both covers.
Thanks!
I've always found that using the counter weight (and more) keyway as a timing index has been the most repeatable and effective way to confirm TDC when building from a box of unknown parts. At TDC of the front rotor it will be 180 out from the combustion chamber - I've confirmed this on an Extreme Rotaries jig however since they've been unobtainium every time I've tried to purchase one I was only able to create a sample size of 4ish (how many shafts I had laying around). An acquaintance of mine is recreating the jig state side so I'll be able to double-quadruple confirm to my own satisfaction.
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04-25-23, 01:47 PM
#42
Junior Member
Thread Starter
I've always found that using the counter weight (and more) keyway as a timing index has been the most repeatable and effective way to confirm TDC when building from a box of unknown parts. At TDC of the front rotor it will be 180 out from the combustion chamber - I've confirmed this on an Extreme Rotaries jig however since they've been unobtainium every time I've tried to purchase one I was only able to create a sample size of 4ish (how many shafts I had laying around). An acquaintance of mine is recreating the jig state side so I'll be able to double-quadruple confirm to my own satisfaction.
I agree with j9fd3s point that its flawed to place the blame on the Haltech when this happens with all ecus. That is why I stuck with the Haltech build after build and swapped nearly every part searching for a solution before suspecting the ECU was the problem. That being said I'm at the point where there is little else to try and there does not appear to be a smoking gun.
04-25-23, 03:23 PM
#43
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The more I think about it the less I like the method I used above to verify TDC. I can confirm though that the keyway is at 9 oclock and I will go out on a very sturdy limb and assume RB probably did not misprint their pulley timing marks. So the engine and ECU have always been properly synced. I have verified all temps, pressures, spark timing, ignition drift etc. Fuel pressure is logged and was checked, injectors are all flow tested and matched. To the point on the cooling system; I have run stock water pump with under drive pulleys and later an electric pump on this car. The car stays nice and cool in general.
I agree with j9fd3s point that its flawed to place the blame on the Haltech when this happens with all ecus. That is why I stuck with the Haltech build after build and swapped nearly every part searching for a solution before suspecting the ECU was the problem. That being said I'm at the point where there is little else to try and there does not appear to be a smoking gun.
I agree with j9fd3s point that its flawed to place the blame on the Haltech when this happens with all ecus. That is why I stuck with the Haltech build after build and swapped nearly every part searching for a solution before suspecting the ECU was the problem. That being said I'm at the point where there is little else to try and there does not appear to be a smoking gun.
05-10-23, 05:46 PM
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So thought id just post my experience after reading multiple forums about warping apex seals.
My setup:
Rx7 Fd s7 engine
Haltech elite 1500 running NSP software
IGN1A coils
1000 Primary's and 1400 Secondary's
BorgWarner S362SXE 0.88 AR
AST Delete
Fuel cut decel disabled
boost was 10psi
Factory wiring loom with plug and play adaptor into ecu (have modified loom to suit new sensors etc)
Irotary apex seals with 150ml per 10L premix ratio (1.92 oz/gal)
Oem springs and seals, all new bearings
plazmaman intercooler (keeps ait very cool)
modified billet impeller waterpump with underdrive pulley
BR9EIX Leading, BR10EIX trailing
No egt sensors but definitely adding to my new setup
stock fd cas and wiring
No AI
Brand new rotor housings from Mazda
Rotating assembly including pressure plate were balanced together
So engine was assembled by a highly reputable builder here in nz, dyno was also done by a reputable rotary tuner (later found out they said they are the most familiar with haltech ecu's). Had put about 500km on it after the tune with no problems but all of this was street driving. when i started having problems was during a track day, I think at this point i was premixing 100ml to 10L (1.3OZ/gal) which probably wasn't a good start with the irotary seals and track day. I'm pretty sure i hadn't even done one lap before i was getting some weird afr readings and engine feel. this weekend i changed the spark plugs 3 times trying to fix a hunting idle, and the engine would only start hot with my foot to the floor. fast forward a month and i replaced the spark plug leads with the grey MSD 8mm wires due to thinking the idle problem was due to poor spark. this weekend was also another track day. I did the first half day with the engine becoming harder and harder to start hot. ended up compression testing at the end of the day with a rotary tester and front rotor read all 20's which is as low as the tester reads and the rear were all 100's. pulled the engine out, tore it down to find out the front apex seals were all bent (also the corner seal rubber inserts had disappeared all 6 of them), the rear apex seals had already lost almost 1mm of material off the height.
this engine has now been rebuilt with SCR seals
Still unsure what caused the problem, probably a collective of small issues like not enough premix, too hot spark plug, no heat shielding around turbo housing/lim etc. water temps never went past 86*C with the sensor in the back of the water neck (stock fd location)
would be interested to hear thought about what might have gone wrong.
My setup:
Rx7 Fd s7 engine
Haltech elite 1500 running NSP software
IGN1A coils
1000 Primary's and 1400 Secondary's
BorgWarner S362SXE 0.88 AR
AST Delete
Fuel cut decel disabled
boost was 10psi
Factory wiring loom with plug and play adaptor into ecu (have modified loom to suit new sensors etc)
Irotary apex seals with 150ml per 10L premix ratio (1.92 oz/gal)
Oem springs and seals, all new bearings
plazmaman intercooler (keeps ait very cool)
modified billet impeller waterpump with underdrive pulley
BR9EIX Leading, BR10EIX trailing
No egt sensors but definitely adding to my new setup
stock fd cas and wiring
No AI
Brand new rotor housings from Mazda
Rotating assembly including pressure plate were balanced together
So engine was assembled by a highly reputable builder here in nz, dyno was also done by a reputable rotary tuner (later found out they said they are the most familiar with haltech ecu's). Had put about 500km on it after the tune with no problems but all of this was street driving. when i started having problems was during a track day, I think at this point i was premixing 100ml to 10L (1.3OZ/gal) which probably wasn't a good start with the irotary seals and track day. I'm pretty sure i hadn't even done one lap before i was getting some weird afr readings and engine feel. this weekend i changed the spark plugs 3 times trying to fix a hunting idle, and the engine would only start hot with my foot to the floor. fast forward a month and i replaced the spark plug leads with the grey MSD 8mm wires due to thinking the idle problem was due to poor spark. this weekend was also another track day. I did the first half day with the engine becoming harder and harder to start hot. ended up compression testing at the end of the day with a rotary tester and front rotor read all 20's which is as low as the tester reads and the rear were all 100's. pulled the engine out, tore it down to find out the front apex seals were all bent (also the corner seal rubber inserts had disappeared all 6 of them), the rear apex seals had already lost almost 1mm of material off the height.
this engine has now been rebuilt with SCR seals
Still unsure what caused the problem, probably a collective of small issues like not enough premix, too hot spark plug, no heat shielding around turbo housing/lim etc. water temps never went past 86*C with the sensor in the back of the water neck (stock fd location)
would be interested to hear thought about what might have gone wrong.
05-10-23, 06:27 PM
#46
Full Member
So thought id just post my experience after reading multiple forums about warping apex seals.
My setup:
Rx7 Fd s7 engine
Haltech elite 1500 running NSP software
IGN1A coils
1000 Primary's and 1400 Secondary's
BorgWarner S362SXE 0.88 AR
AST Delete
Fuel cut decel disabled
boost was 10psi
Factory wiring loom with plug and play adaptor into ecu (have modified loom to suit new sensors etc)
Irotary apex seals with 150ml per 10L premix ratio (1.92 oz/gal)
Oem springs and seals, all new bearings
plazmaman intercooler (keeps ait very cool)
modified billet impeller waterpump with underdrive pulley
BR9EIX Leading, BR10EIX trailing
No egt sensors but definitely adding to my new setup
stock fd cas and wiring
No AI
Brand new rotor housings from Mazda
Rotating assembly including pressure plate were balanced together
So engine was assembled by a highly reputable builder here in nz, dyno was also done by a reputable rotary tuner (later found out they said they are the most familiar with haltech ecu's). Had put about 500km on it after the tune with no problems but all of this was street driving. when i started having problems was during a track day, I think at this point i was premixing 100ml to 10L (1.3OZ/gal) which probably wasn't a good start with the irotary seals and track day. I'm pretty sure i hadn't even done one lap before i was getting some weird afr readings and engine feel. this weekend i changed the spark plugs 3 times trying to fix a hunting idle, and the engine would only start hot with my foot to the floor. fast forward a month and i replaced the spark plug leads with the grey MSD 8mm wires due to thinking the idle problem was due to poor spark. this weekend was also another track day. I did the first half day with the engine becoming harder and harder to start hot. ended up compression testing at the end of the day with a rotary tester and front rotor read all 20's which is as low as the tester reads and the rear were all 100's. pulled the engine out, tore it down to find out the front apex seals were all bent (also the corner seal rubber inserts had disappeared all 6 of them), the rear apex seals had already lost almost 1mm of material off the height.
this engine has now been rebuilt with SCR seals
Still unsure what caused the problem, probably a collective of small issues like not enough premix, too hot spark plug, no heat shielding around turbo housing/lim etc. water temps never went past 86*C with the sensor in the back of the water neck (stock fd location)
would be interested to hear thought about what might have gone wrong.
My setup:
Rx7 Fd s7 engine
Haltech elite 1500 running NSP software
IGN1A coils
1000 Primary's and 1400 Secondary's
BorgWarner S362SXE 0.88 AR
AST Delete
Fuel cut decel disabled
boost was 10psi
Factory wiring loom with plug and play adaptor into ecu (have modified loom to suit new sensors etc)
Irotary apex seals with 150ml per 10L premix ratio (1.92 oz/gal)
Oem springs and seals, all new bearings
plazmaman intercooler (keeps ait very cool)
modified billet impeller waterpump with underdrive pulley
BR9EIX Leading, BR10EIX trailing
No egt sensors but definitely adding to my new setup
stock fd cas and wiring
No AI
Brand new rotor housings from Mazda
Rotating assembly including pressure plate were balanced together
So engine was assembled by a highly reputable builder here in nz, dyno was also done by a reputable rotary tuner (later found out they said they are the most familiar with haltech ecu's). Had put about 500km on it after the tune with no problems but all of this was street driving. when i started having problems was during a track day, I think at this point i was premixing 100ml to 10L (1.3OZ/gal) which probably wasn't a good start with the irotary seals and track day. I'm pretty sure i hadn't even done one lap before i was getting some weird afr readings and engine feel. this weekend i changed the spark plugs 3 times trying to fix a hunting idle, and the engine would only start hot with my foot to the floor. fast forward a month and i replaced the spark plug leads with the grey MSD 8mm wires due to thinking the idle problem was due to poor spark. this weekend was also another track day. I did the first half day with the engine becoming harder and harder to start hot. ended up compression testing at the end of the day with a rotary tester and front rotor read all 20's which is as low as the tester reads and the rear were all 100's. pulled the engine out, tore it down to find out the front apex seals were all bent (also the corner seal rubber inserts had disappeared all 6 of them), the rear apex seals had already lost almost 1mm of material off the height.
this engine has now been rebuilt with SCR seals
Still unsure what caused the problem, probably a collective of small issues like not enough premix, too hot spark plug, no heat shielding around turbo housing/lim etc. water temps never went past 86*C with the sensor in the back of the water neck (stock fd location)
would be interested to hear thought about what might have gone wrong.
Very interesting experience with the I-rotary seals. I myself am still working through "warping" issues.Those rubber plugs disappeared due to heat. Im not sure what SCR seals are but I recently did it round 2. 1st time was with E and J seals and they experienced extreme wear as you have notated with your i-rotary and "warped". 2nd time I used RA classics which I still "warped" but didn't wear at an extreme rate. The "warpage" was also not as bad as the car still started hot and cold and idles.
I believe my heat issues were due to lack of fuel delivery. I am in the process of rewiring the engine and upgrading my ecu. I would be looking for fuel delivery issues on your front rotor. Could be injector, or wiring harness or ecu output.
05-10-23, 09:04 PM
#47
Original Gangster/Rotary!
iTrader: (213)
So thought id just post my experience after reading multiple forums about warping apex seals.
My setup:
Rx7 Fd s7 engine
Haltech elite 1500 running NSP software
IGN1A coils
1000 Primary's and 1400 Secondary's
BorgWarner S362SXE 0.88 AR
AST Delete
Fuel cut decel disabled
boost was 10psi
Factory wiring loom with plug and play adaptor into ecu (have modified loom to suit new sensors etc)
Irotary apex seals with 150ml per 10L premix ratio (1.92 oz/gal)
Oem springs and seals, all new bearings
plazmaman intercooler (keeps ait very cool)
modified billet impeller waterpump with underdrive pulley
BR9EIX Leading, BR10EIX trailing
No egt sensors but definitely adding to my new setup
stock fd cas and wiring
No AI
Brand new rotor housings from Mazda
Rotating assembly including pressure plate were balanced together
So engine was assembled by a highly reputable builder here in nz, dyno was also done by a reputable rotary tuner (later found out they said they are the most familiar with haltech ecu's). Had put about 500km on it after the tune with no problems but all of this was street driving. when i started having problems was during a track day, I think at this point i was premixing 100ml to 10L (1.3OZ/gal) which probably wasn't a good start with the irotary seals and track day. I'm pretty sure i hadn't even done one lap before i was getting some weird afr readings and engine feel. this weekend i changed the spark plugs 3 times trying to fix a hunting idle, and the engine would only start hot with my foot to the floor. fast forward a month and i replaced the spark plug leads with the grey MSD 8mm wires due to thinking the idle problem was due to poor spark. this weekend was also another track day. I did the first half day with the engine becoming harder and harder to start hot. ended up compression testing at the end of the day with a rotary tester and front rotor read all 20's which is as low as the tester reads and the rear were all 100's. pulled the engine out, tore it down to find out the front apex seals were all bent (also the corner seal rubber inserts had disappeared all 6 of them), the rear apex seals had already lost almost 1mm of material off the height.
this engine has now been rebuilt with SCR seals
Still unsure what caused the problem, probably a collective of small issues like not enough premix, too hot spark plug, no heat shielding around turbo housing/lim etc. water temps never went past 86*C with the sensor in the back of the water neck (stock fd location)
would be interested to hear thought about what might have gone wrong.
My setup:
Rx7 Fd s7 engine
Haltech elite 1500 running NSP software
IGN1A coils
1000 Primary's and 1400 Secondary's
BorgWarner S362SXE 0.88 AR
AST Delete
Fuel cut decel disabled
boost was 10psi
Factory wiring loom with plug and play adaptor into ecu (have modified loom to suit new sensors etc)
Irotary apex seals with 150ml per 10L premix ratio (1.92 oz/gal)
Oem springs and seals, all new bearings
plazmaman intercooler (keeps ait very cool)
modified billet impeller waterpump with underdrive pulley
BR9EIX Leading, BR10EIX trailing
No egt sensors but definitely adding to my new setup
stock fd cas and wiring
No AI
Brand new rotor housings from Mazda
Rotating assembly including pressure plate were balanced together
So engine was assembled by a highly reputable builder here in nz, dyno was also done by a reputable rotary tuner (later found out they said they are the most familiar with haltech ecu's). Had put about 500km on it after the tune with no problems but all of this was street driving. when i started having problems was during a track day, I think at this point i was premixing 100ml to 10L (1.3OZ/gal) which probably wasn't a good start with the irotary seals and track day. I'm pretty sure i hadn't even done one lap before i was getting some weird afr readings and engine feel. this weekend i changed the spark plugs 3 times trying to fix a hunting idle, and the engine would only start hot with my foot to the floor. fast forward a month and i replaced the spark plug leads with the grey MSD 8mm wires due to thinking the idle problem was due to poor spark. this weekend was also another track day. I did the first half day with the engine becoming harder and harder to start hot. ended up compression testing at the end of the day with a rotary tester and front rotor read all 20's which is as low as the tester reads and the rear were all 100's. pulled the engine out, tore it down to find out the front apex seals were all bent (also the corner seal rubber inserts had disappeared all 6 of them), the rear apex seals had already lost almost 1mm of material off the height.
this engine has now been rebuilt with SCR seals
Still unsure what caused the problem, probably a collective of small issues like not enough premix, too hot spark plug, no heat shielding around turbo housing/lim etc. water temps never went past 86*C with the sensor in the back of the water neck (stock fd location)
would be interested to hear thought about what might have gone wrong.
Not a fan of those spark plugs at all. For track use look into the Denso Iridium IRE01-31, heat range 10.
05-11-23, 09:09 AM
#48
Moderator
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: https://www2.mazda.com/en/100th/
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Still unsure what caused the problem, probably a collective of small issues like not enough premix, too hot spark plug, no heat shielding around turbo housing/lim etc. water temps never went past 86*C with the sensor in the back of the water neck (stock fd location)
would be interested to hear thought about what might have gone wrong.
would be interested to hear thought about what might have gone wrong.
if the aftermarket seals job is to be the fuse in the system if there are problems, they are actually doing their jobs in a lot of cases.
however the aftermarket seals also don't seem to be very forgiving either.
you should have probably had more premix, although people are warping seals with or without it
86c seems really cool for coolant temps
i made a sheet to track this phenomena, and i'm not sure the plugs matter, the BREIX may not be the best thing for power or track-work or whatever, but people warp the seals on any plug.
ecu and CAS don't matter either, although there are a lot of cars where the ecu is new, so its pointing to a setup/tuning issue
lots of warped seal cars don't have the AST, but some do and some are not FD's
AI doesn't help either, in fact in a couple of cases caused the failure, implementation of the system is very very important
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mono4lamar
Single Turbo RX-7's
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