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2) Over time the starter solenoid degrades - the internal moving parts wear and the internal wiring degrades, causing it to need more current to engage. Eventually the solenoid will degrade to the point (resistance, wear) that it will need more current than a single 12V source can provide. At this point the only solution is to replace the solenoid (or the whole starter which contains the solenoid). This increased current need has NOTHING to do with the wiring being incapable of supplying the current - it is purely that there isn't enough voltage in a fixed 12V system to overcome the resistance of the solenoid.
I hope this helps everyone understand what is going on.
John V (MSEE with fifteen years in the field)
I hate adding to old threads, but...
I've been tracking this one down over the past few days on my S4 coupe. After much testing, I determined the starter/solenoid was bad. Lifetime warranty, so I headed to O'Reiley's. They put it in their test cabinet, and it passed just fine. So I went back and tested voltage, etc. Everything seems fine. So then I did a simple bench test. Attached jumper cables directly to the battery (fully charged, read 12.5 volts). attached other end as such: ground to starter body, hot to B terminal on starter. With starter firmly held in place, I jumped a wire from the hot jumper cable clamp over to the S terminal on the solenoid. Nothing. not even a click. So I thought my jumper wire was too small guage. Tried with a screwdriver. Nothing. So I took the jumper wire and tapped it to the starter body to make sure I had a good ground. Pretty good spark from the short.
I even thought maybe something was wrong with the battery. So I drove my S4 vert around and connected to that battery and did same test. nothing.
Took starter back to O'Reilly's and it passed again. Given your comment #2 above, I wonder if the solenoid is just bad enough where 12.5 volts is not enough to kick start the solenoid, and maybe O'Reilly's test cabinet provides more like 13 or so. I asked if they can adjust the voltage down to under 12.5v and they said no. Seems pretty automated. I just had them order me a new one, and we'll see when it comes in. I guess I could swap the one from my Vert, but that's a big PITA.
If you have a volt meter and a second car you can test the output voltage of the second car's alternator and see if that will be enough to get the starter's solenoid in question to activate. The output of the second car's alternator should clearly be above 12 volts.
If you have a volt meter and a second car you can test the output voltage of the second car's alternator and see if that will be enough to get the starter's solenoid in question to activate. The output of the second car's alternator should clearly be above 12 volts.
Ya, didn't think about jumping from another running car at the same time. guess that would be two batteries + one alternator. I just tested it from both batteries (vert not running). I have to go out of town for a few days and the new starter will be in when I get back. If that resolves it, then I'll know. Still seems strange it passed O'Reilly's tester (I stood there and watched it spin up three times), but wouldn't do anything directly attached to two different fully charged batteries.
hopefully this helps some people...I tried all the ways on this thread previously mentioned and none had worked for me which is why I leave this here...
I used a simple automotive relay to solve my sticky starter...I used a multimeter and I determined that with key to ACC voltage throughout the ignition and starter circuit was 12.5v, with key to START, voltage dropped immediately to 7v-8v, which was probably not enough to kick in the starter solenoid. The source of the resistance was a poorly installed Viper alarm module by the previous owner...looked like a hack job...rather than pulling the module out and redoing it and risking further problems...I simply used a relay in combination with the security "Starter cut relay"...
First I removed the actual starter cut relay found behind the trailing coil pack...left the connector base in place...
Next, I took a 20A Fused lead from the battery directly to pin 87 on the relay (Red wire), then grounded the circuit from the chassis strut tower ground point to pin 85 (Green wire), then I jumpered the BLACK/GREEN STRIPE wire to pin 86 on the relay. Lastly, I jumpered the BLACK/BLUE STRIPE wire to pin 30 on the relay.
With key to START, the voltage runs through the ignition circuit to the BLACK/GREEN STRIPE wire on the starter cut relay base...(which I am now using to switch my own relay). The low voltage I was receiving before with key to START was not enough to engage high amperage starter solenoid, however, it is enough to suck in an automotive relays low amperage contact. By doing so, the relay closes the contact and supplies direct power from the battery to the BLACK/BLUE STRIPE wire on the starter cut relay base, onto the rest of the ignition/starter circuit, then to starter solenoid, which engages the starter!
The picture below illustrates the simple relay i setup...I have since cleaned it up a bit and shortened the jumpers...also electrical taped up any visible contact points to reduce the risk of shock/shorts.
Solved. It did end up being a bad starter. The solenoid must have just been off enough to not start with normal voltage from the car, but worked in O'Reilly's tester. Go figure. The guy at O'Reilley's thought I was an idiot, not wanting to believe his tester could be wrong. The starter was under warranty, so he didn't really care, but I could tell he thought I was wasting my time getting a new one. Bench tested the new one with the exact same method and it spun up right away. put it in the car and all is good (with the starter anyway ). Anyway, new lesson. The test machine at the parts place can sometimes show a starter is good, when it actually isn't.
Solved. It did end up being a bad starter. The solenoid must have just been off enough to not start with normal voltage from the car, but worked in O'Reilly's tester. Go figure. The guy at O'Reilley's thought I was an idiot, not wanting to believe his tester could be wrong. The starter was under warranty, so he didn't really care, but I could tell he thought I was wasting my time getting a new one. Bench tested the new one with the exact same method and it spun up right away. put it in the car and all is good (with the starter anyway ). Anyway, new lesson. The test machine at the parts place can sometimes show a starter is good, when it actually isn't.
Like I said, the solenoid will age over time and require more voltage to engage. If the car's wiring is marginal and has a lot of voltage drop you won't be able to get the solenoid to engage. The resistance of the solenoid increases when it's hot as well so hot starts will be even worse.
I had the click click start for the first time in my S5 vert the other day as well.
After turning the key a few times to No avail, the starter actually started turning over after I had pulled the key out. the car was in gear so it lurched forward.
After some researched it appeared to me that pulling the starter cut relay and jumpering in the auto relay should solve both of my issues.
The problem is that I followed CALPICOs instructions from post #205 to the T and although the accessories would come on when turning the key, the starter would NOT engage.
I also tried to jumper the Black/Blue wire directly to the battery as a test which I believe should have resulted in the turning over of the starter and NOTHING happened as well. I did this with the key turned to ON.
I am using a BWD relay from O'Reilys which includes pins 85,86,87,87a, and 30. I was not totally sure if battery power should go to pin 87 or 87a but I tried both and neither worked.
Can anyone see what I may be doing wrong?
I did start the car about 20 times over the weekend and NO click click start but that one time last week was enough for me to worry about getting stranded somewhere. And, I certainly dont want my car starting itself while I am not around.
If the starter turned over w/the key pulled out of the ignition then the ignition switch was the likely cause of your problem for this to occur. This does not mean you do not have other issues.
Also, if you wanted to test the starter on an S5 you would jumper voltage from the battery to the Black/Red wire which feeds to the starter solenoid. By jumpering voltage to the Black/Blue wire you would also have to press down on the clutch pedal for the starter solenoid to receive voltage. Providing voltage to the B/L wire in itself does not send voltage to the starter.
I DO believe that I was holding the key in my hand as the car was starting itself so I will focus on the ignition switch. Any suggestions as to what I am looking for regarding a faulty ignition switch?
Also, where do I find the black/red starter solenoid wire under the hood. Should it be running to one of the relays in front of the radiator?
I DO believe that I was holding the key in my hand as the car was starting itself so I will focus on the ignition switch. Any suggestions as to what I am looking for regarding a faulty ignition switch?
Also, where do I find the black/red starter solenoid wire under the hood. Should it be running to one of the relays in front of the radiator?
The B/R wire is found at the Interlock Switch. There are two B/G wires at your Starter Cut Relay and of these two wires of the same color one is thicker than the other. The thicker B/G wire runs to the Interlock Switch where the voltage is then passed onto the B/R wire. So, if you jumpered the B/G wire and pressed down on the clutch pedal then the starter should turn over. Since this wire is after the relay then it takes this relay out of the equation such that if the starter doesn't activate then the relay cannot be the problem.
The Front harness connects to the Ignition Switch. You would want to focus on the Black/Blue wire as this wire should only have voltage w/key to start. If the key was pulled out of the ignition while in the off position then your problem of the starter activating w/o the key is a problem manifested by the switch.
I think I will bypass the switch for now with a push-button and see if that resolves both my click, click, start and the the car starting on its own. I have also thought my starter was turning over slower than normal so if that doesnt change with the bush-button I will pull my starter and have it tested.
I am still confused as to why pulling the starter cut relay and setting up the new auto relay in its place as Hozzman has suggested didnt result in the starter turning over.
I think I will bypass the switch for now with a push-button and see if that resolves both my click, click, start and the the car starting on its own. I have also thought my starter was turning over slower than normal so if that doesnt change with the bush-button I will pull my starter and have it tested.
I am still confused as to why pulling the starter cut relay and setting up the new auto relay in its place as Hozzman has suggested didnt result in the starter turning over.
You have an S5 and an S5 has the Interlock Switch located AFTER the Starter Cut Relay and not BEFORE the relay so your problem can be tied to the switch and not the relay. Your relay might be just fine, but if the Interlock Switch is your problem then adding a relay would not solve your possible issue.
This was not original starter. I just bought it less than two years ago, and my coupe has been torn down for repaint in my gargage about that long so it really hasn't seen a lot of use. I do go out and run it a couple of times a month to keep the cobwebs out. It has flooded a few times while its been sitting, so I may have over-stressed the solenoid a couple of times while unflooding it. At any rate, it was under warranty so all is good.
The way the heater blower gets cut off during Start is just the opposite of the way I thought it worked. That was post number 108 I think.
IF the starter is not being turned over, then there is a ground on that B/R wire to the blower motor. Comes off the starter solenoids coil itself when it has no power going to it.
But if you go to Start, then you put 12v approx on that wire to the blower. Since the power on that wire equals the power on the other side of the IG Power coil.........that relay relaxes and can't pass power to the other relays that power the blower motor. So the blower stops robbing power from the battery during start.
Then you let go of START with the key.............power no longer exists on that wire to the IG Power relay in the blower motor and now there is a ground on that wire via the starter solenoid.................IG Power relay pulls in again and lets the blower work again.
Just the opposite way of working as I described in a earlier post above. There I said going to Start put power on the relay in the blower motor to pull in a relay but in reality you remove the gnd on that IG Power relay so it relaxes which prevents the other blower relays from pulling in.
The L/Y and G/R wires coming from the Logicon are grounds for the relays involved. That's what controls those relays normally.....the heater relay and ex-hi relays.
If the B/R wire from the starter does not have a ground on it then the heater relay and the ex-hi relays won't get power and can't work.
I pointed to the B/R wire in the attached jpg. I kind of repeated myself in my last two sentences. But they help explain what I said prior to that. Doubt anybody will read this anyway. I think I'm right about how the IG Power relay works duing START.
In the picture attached I see there is a blocking diode b/t the B/R wire and the IG Power relay. Power should not pass thru that diode to draw any power off the starter solenoid............but if the diode is blown for unknown reasons (batt connected up wrong at some time? in the past?) then it could siphon off power from the starter solenoid during Start? Say yes.
So the five volts was power passing thru the blocking diode and getting fed by the Meter fuse.?
Makes me want to go to my click, click car and put it back to stk and then disconnect the B/R wire from the blower housing assy and see if the starter now starts without the click, click, click...........finally start. Just key to start and start the car.
When I say B/R wire it could be B/R on some cars or B/W on others. Depends on the model. Whether B/R or B/W it's the wire spliced into the starter solenoid wire just prior to the starter solenoid.
Originally Posted by HAILERS2
This might help. Maybe the relay your looking at is not the IGN Pwr relay at all.
I distincly remember the IGn Pwr relay being held to the outbd side of the blower housing all alone by itself. It's not one of the two relays located together on the backside of the blower housing facing the passenger. I posted a picture or two of it years ago. Maybe I can find it. IF memoy serves I could not see that Ign Pwr relay unless the blower housing was removed from the car. Hmm. I think theres a pic of it in BODY ELECTRICAL. Bye.
EDIT: I found the ign relay in the place shown in this jpg out of the series five HEATER AND A/C section of the FSM. It's number 7 in the picture. That picture is of the front side of the housing so you cannot see it from the area of the passengers knees (backside of the housing).
Series four BODY ELECTRICAL shows it in another place and I believe it's misidentified in that manual. I found trouble shooting the heater/blower made more sense looking at the series five HEATER AND A/C section of the FSM.
The relay that has the plug with the L/Y wire on it IS NOT in my opinion the IGN relay but that relay is the EX-HI relay. The HEATER relay would be the one that has a G/R wire in it's elect plug. Both those relays would also have a LG/B wire in their electrical plugs. The IGN relay has none of these color wires in it.
That help? Some I'm sure. Not all though. The B/Y connected to the starter solenoin on YOUR car is not kosher imho. Discolored white seems to be yellow is the cause? Heat distorted the color from white to yellow?
Seems I could just go to my car.......put it back to stk (no new relays in the start circuit) and just disconnect that blower motor plug that has about eight wires in it (F-50 in my diagrams above) and then go start the car and see if it has a click or varoooooooom! tooo hot.
I realize this thread has been dead for a very long time, but after going through some heartache I decided it was important to put this issue to bed and share my findings. It is by luck that I happened upon this thread and discovered others had encountered what I originally thought to be a unique situation created by 30 years of electrical molestation and degradation on my FC.
Let me start by saying cars except the non-turbo M/T FC should NOT use any sort of starter booster relay, at least in its currently adopted form.
As HAILERS discussed earlier, all models except the non-turbo M/T use IGN relay to inhibit blower motor operation during cranking. This could have been rectified by Mazda sourcing this relay feed from IG2 (which does not get power during crank), but that ship sailed nearly 40 years ago when the car was designed...
As the system is designed, the IGN relay coil relies on the low impedance path from the starter solenoid to engage the relay. During cranking, the starter solenoid will received 12V to energize. This is where the series diode between IGN relay coil and starter circuit come in to play. When the key is turned to START this node gets battery voltage; the diode simply blocks the starter circuit from backfeeding through the IGN relay. With the starter circuit energized the IGN relay will disengage so long as the key is held to START.
Here is where the problems start. By installing a starter booster relay at the starter solenoid, we have just set up a voltage divider circuit on the starter circuit, via the IGN relay coil... Several members reported "phantom voltage" of around 5V on the starter circuit, and correctly suspected the source to be the blower motor; meanwhile, not realizing the root cause of the issue is our installation of a starter booster relay to aid in cranking reliability. This actually makes perfect sense, and I have attached a SPICE simulation explaining such. Automotive relays have a coil resistance typically of 70-90ohms, and the starter solenoid is much lower in comparison, nearly 1ohm from what I could measure with the car still on the ground. The values in my simulation are based off memory for my use case, but regardless the end result will still be the same: an intermediate voltage on the starter circuit, introduced by our voltage divider.
Note the intermediate voltage on the starter circuit is 5.6V with our starter booster relay installed. This is very close to what I actually saw in the car:
Now see how different things are when the circuit is working as intended with the starter solenoid providing a low impedance path the ground to properly engage the IGN relay coil. We have less than a couple hundred mV, which will not be causing any erroneous behavior:
Symptoms of this issue are as follows:
- The blower may work or not work, seemingly intermittently. I could physically tap the IGN relay to kick the coil into engagement.
- If you have an aftermarket ECU utilizing fuel pump priming, the circuit opening relay's second coil will hold the relay latched and leave the pump running indefinitely with the key to ON (this is actually how I first started investigating the issue).
- The car may randomly start to crank when the key is first turned to ACC, regardless if the clutch interlock switch is disengaged since this voltage is present directly on the solenoid side of the starting circuit. You may think it's your ignition switch going bad, but it's not. The intermediate voltage will spike just high enough to trigger our new friend, the starter booster relay!
- A stock ECU may misinterpret the car as cranking and perform some sort of function (unknown, I don't know what the stock ECU uses the crank signal for).
So there you have it. Nearly 10 years in the making and we finally have some actual data to support WHY something seemingly random happens.
One member did prove that you can modify the IGN relay circuit and disconnect the starter signal from the coil, instead connecting to ground. Just keep in mind the responsibility is then on you to turn off the blower during cranking. You also could re-source the 12V feed from IG2 instead of IG2.
I realize this thread has been dead for a very long time, but after going through some heartache I decided it was important to put this issue to bed and share my findings. It is by luck that I happened upon this thread and discovered others had encountered what I originally thought to be a unique situation created by 30 years of electrical molestation and degradation on my FC.
Let me start by saying cars except the non-turbo M/T FC should NOT use any sort of starter booster relay, at least in its currently adopted form.
As HAILERS discussed earlier, all models except the non-turbo M/T use IGN relay to inhibit blower motor operation during cranking. This could have been rectified by Mazda sourcing this relay feed from IG2 (which does not get power during crank), but that ship sailed nearly 40 years ago when the car was designed...
As the system is designed, the IGN relay coil relies on the low impedance path from the starter solenoid to engage the relay. During cranking, the starter solenoid will received 12V to energize. This is where the series diode between IGN relay coil and starter circuit come in to play. When the key is turned to START this node gets battery voltage; the diode simply blocks the starter circuit from backfeeding through the IGN relay. With the starter circuit energized the IGN relay will disengage so long as the key is held to START.
Here is where the problems start. By installing a starter booster relay at the starter solenoid, we have just set up a voltage divider circuit on the starter circuit, via the IGN relay coil... Several members reported "phantom voltage" of around 5V on the starter circuit, and correctly suspected the source to be the blower motor; meanwhile, not realizing the root cause of the issue is our installation of a starter booster relay to aid in cranking reliability. This actually makes perfect sense, and I have attached a SPICE simulation explaining such. Automotive relays have a coil resistance typically of 70-90ohms, and the starter solenoid is much lower in comparison, nearly 1ohm from what I could measure with the car still on the ground. The values in my simulation are based off memory for my use case, but regardless the end result will still be the same: an intermediate voltage on the starter circuit, introduced by our voltage divider.
Note the intermediate voltage on the starter circuit is 5.6V with our starter booster relay installed. This is very close to what I actually saw in the car:
Now see how different things are when the circuit is working as intended with the starter solenoid providing a low impedance path the ground to properly engage the IGN relay coil. We have less than a couple hundred mV, which will not be causing any erroneous behavior:
Symptoms of this issue are as follows:
- The blower may work or not work, seemingly intermittently. I could physically tap the IGN relay to kick the coil into engagement.
- If you have an aftermarket ECU utilizing fuel pump priming, the circuit opening relay's second coil will hold the relay latched and leave the pump running indefinitely with the key to ON (this is actually how I first started investigating the issue).
- The car may randomly start to crank when the key is first turned to ACC, regardless if the clutch interlock switch is disengaged since this voltage is present directly on the solenoid side of the starting circuit. You may think it's your ignition switch going bad, but it's not. The intermediate voltage will spike just high enough to trigger our new friend, the starter booster relay!
- A stock ECU may misinterpret the car as cranking and perform some sort of function (unknown, I don't know what the stock ECU uses the crank signal for).
So there you have it. Nearly 10 years in the making and we finally have some actual data to support WHY something seemingly random happens.
One member did prove that you can modify the IGN relay circuit and disconnect the starter signal from the coil, instead connecting to ground. Just keep in mind the responsibility is then on you to turn off the blower during cranking. You also could re-source the 12V feed from IG2 instead of IG2.
Unfortunately, this happens on Non-turbo cars as well. Ironically Ive never seen this issue talked about in Japanese rotary forums.
Unfortunately, this happens on Non-turbo cars as well.
Rogrx7, I'm merely explaining the odd behavior people reported after attempting to fix starter issues with a booster relay, not at catch-all for sticky starters or click-click-start (this thread covered a lot of ground from beginning to end, towards the end many symptoms/problems are exactly a result of what I discuss).
Are you stating non-turbo cars have the problems I described, or you thought I was claiming to have fixed the original problem is the vehicle not starting? To clarify, at least the scenario I'm talking about, it would appear the non-turbo manual cars should be unaffected. Though all cars can still exhibit starting problems, the booster relay certainly helps in that regard. I'm only referring to the "phantom voltage" issues, not starting issues.
Rogrx7, I'm merely explaining the odd behavior people reported after attempting to fix starter issues with a booster relay, not at catch-all for sticky starters or click-click-start (this thread covered a lot of ground from beginning to end, towards the end many symptoms/problems are exactly a result of what I discuss).
Are you stating non-turbo cars have the problems I described, or you thought I was claiming to have fixed the original problem is the vehicle not starting? To clarify, at least the scenario I'm talking about, it would appear the non-turbo manual cars should be unaffected. Though all cars can still exhibit starting problems, the booster relay certainly helps in that regard. I'm only referring to the "phantom voltage" issues, not starting issues.
I spoke to soon. It cranks every time but the starter stays engaged after the engine is running (i was doing a crank test with the fuel pump off when I made my earlier post). This was never an issue before. Any ideas on what I may have done wrong here?
06-11-13, 01:47 PM
