I've solves the 2nd Gen sticky starter mystery
04-02-10, 12:13 AM
#1
Driving RX7's since 1979
Thread Starter
iTrader: (43)
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: So Cal where the OC/LA/SB counties meet
Posts: 6,096
Likes: 0
Received 8 Likes
on
8 Posts
I've solves the 2nd Gen sticky starter mystery
All three of my Verts have it, my S4 by far the worst. So I spent most of the day tracing it down in the S4.
I wired in a Bosch relay exactly as the factory starter cut relay, and exactly the same symptoms. Substituting each source one at a time, I found the bugger. I'm suspicious that the factory alarm module is (negative) pulsing the cut relay when it shouldn't be, so I supposed I could have simply cut that lg/y wire. But I decided to just eliminated the whole cut relay set up as a cleaner way to go.
What I did to fix, I eliminated the factory cut relay and replaced with a rewired Bosch using the positive (large Black/Green wire) from the ignition/interlock switch as trigger (so you still have to press the clutch to start...a good thing IMO), and trigger ground to the chassis. Ran positive source directly from the battery and stock wire (large Black/White wire) that the relay sends to my starter. Now the Vert has a very consistant and strong start every single time.
Again, with my fix you do loose the start cut feature no matter what for the factory alarm. But knowing my car will now start with the first twist of the key every time is more than a better trade off. Best approach would probably be to just replace with a new factory alarm module. But I don't even want to know what one of those factory parts would cost.
Thought I'd share for the community
I wired in a Bosch relay exactly as the factory starter cut relay, and exactly the same symptoms. Substituting each source one at a time, I found the bugger. I'm suspicious that the factory alarm module is (negative) pulsing the cut relay when it shouldn't be, so I supposed I could have simply cut that lg/y wire. But I decided to just eliminated the whole cut relay set up as a cleaner way to go.
What I did to fix, I eliminated the factory cut relay and replaced with a rewired Bosch using the positive (large Black/Green wire) from the ignition/interlock switch as trigger (so you still have to press the clutch to start...a good thing IMO), and trigger ground to the chassis. Ran positive source directly from the battery and stock wire (large Black/White wire) that the relay sends to my starter. Now the Vert has a very consistant and strong start every single time.
Again, with my fix you do loose the start cut feature no matter what for the factory alarm. But knowing my car will now start with the first twist of the key every time is more than a better trade off. Best approach would probably be to just replace with a new factory alarm module. But I don't even want to know what one of those factory parts would cost.
Thought I'd share for the community
04-02-10, 12:29 AM
#3
Driving RX7's since 1979
Thread Starter
iTrader: (43)
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: So Cal where the OC/LA/SB counties meet
Posts: 6,096
Likes: 0
Received 8 Likes
on
8 Posts
NO, this is the turn key to shart and click nothing. Hold the key and pump the clutch until it finally connects and the starter starts.
What you described sounds like dirty battery posts, or at least there is a resistance (read back connection someplace) between the battery and the starter itself as the buzzing is probably the starter struggling to draw enough amps to turn over.
What you described sounds like dirty battery posts, or at least there is a resistance (read back connection someplace) between the battery and the starter itself as the buzzing is probably the starter struggling to draw enough amps to turn over.
04-02-10, 11:27 AM
#7
HAILERS
Join Date: May 2001
Location: FORT WORTH, TEXAS,USA
Posts: 20,563
Likes: 0
Received 21 Likes
on
19 Posts
Not all RX came with Theft Protection and therefore have no Starter Cut Relay. In place of the relay is a Blue Jumper connector to jumper the start circuit from the interlock switch to the starter solenoid.
I'm saying that there are a number of cars with this blue jumper who have the click, click, click, finally starter spinning scenario.
Jpg of Blue jumper attached.
I'm saying that there are a number of cars with this blue jumper who have the click, click, click, finally starter spinning scenario.
Jpg of Blue jumper attached.
Trending Topics
04-02-10, 11:51 AM
#9
HAILERS
Join Date: May 2001
Location: FORT WORTH, TEXAS,USA
Posts: 20,563
Likes: 0
Received 21 Likes
on
19 Posts
Yes, HOZZMANs fix will most likely fix your starting problem. Go look under your trail coil assy for the blue jumper I included in my post above. Then follow Hozzmans instructions. The elect plug the blue jumper is connected to IS the same plug that would go on a Starter Cut Relay.
04-02-10, 11:54 AM
#10
NO, this is the turn key to shart and click nothing. Hold the key and pump the clutch until it finally connects and the starter starts.
What you described sounds like dirty battery posts, or at least there is a resistance (read back connection someplace) between the battery and the starter itself as the buzzing is probably the starter struggling to draw enough amps to turn over.
What you described sounds like dirty battery posts, or at least there is a resistance (read back connection someplace) between the battery and the starter itself as the buzzing is probably the starter struggling to draw enough amps to turn over.
ill have to look and see if my car had an alarm, then try to look into this , they swaped the interior to s5 so i dont think it has the security light anymore.
04-02-10, 12:13 PM
#11
Moderator
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: https://www2.mazda.com/en/100th/
Posts: 30,805
Received 2,578 Likes
on
1,831 Posts
ive found that the clutch saftey switch is usually the problem. the switch is a US only add on...
04-02-10, 01:07 PM
#12
Yes, HOZZMANs fix will most likely fix your starting problem. Go look under your trail coil assy for the blue jumper I included in my post above. Then follow Hozzmans instructions. The elect plug the blue jumper is connected to IS the same plug that would go on a Starter Cut Relay.
04-02-10, 04:20 PM
#15
Moderator
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: https://www2.mazda.com/en/100th/
Posts: 30,805
Received 2,578 Likes
on
1,831 Posts
04-02-10, 06:41 PM
#16
For clarity sake, the symptom being talked about is when the starter makes no attempt at all when you turn the key? If so, is this also associated with no power to anything in the car also?
j9fd3s;9910323]ive found that the clutch saftey switch is usually the problem. the switch is a US only add on...[/QUOTE]
IIRC this is a white pin that is in the cockpit behind the clutch pedal..correct?
j9fd3s;9910323]ive found that the clutch saftey switch is usually the problem. the switch is a US only add on...[/QUOTE]
IIRC this is a white pin that is in the cockpit behind the clutch pedal..correct?
04-02-10, 07:23 PM
#19
HAILERS
Join Date: May 2001
Location: FORT WORTH, TEXAS,USA
Posts: 20,563
Likes: 0
Received 21 Likes
on
19 Posts
I have no use for clutch interlock switches. When the one when out on ONE of my cars, it was not the internals of the interlock switch. IT was where the plunger met the clutch pedal part that was bad. I'm saying it was the contact part on the clutch pedal that had disintegrated. Jumered the interlock to over ride the switch altogether.
Still, later had the click, click b.s. Went thru several solenoids/starters til I WISED UP.
Two of my three cars came STOCK with no interlock switch, so don't be surprised to not find one on a 86-87 car. Turbo or non turbo.
Still, later had the click, click b.s. Went thru several solenoids/starters til I WISED UP.
Two of my three cars came STOCK with no interlock switch, so don't be surprised to not find one on a 86-87 car. Turbo or non turbo.
04-02-10, 08:22 PM
#20
I have this problem too, I'd prefer to keep as much of the stock wiring as possible and I'm having a hard time understanding what you guys are talking about.
Looking at the Wiring diagram for the starting system. S is the starter power source, B is Battery Source. Interlock is first (B/R) which isn't the clutch switch. I think? Next is the Starter Cut relay (B/G) and a bunch of crap along with it...(LG/Y to the Theft Deterrent System and B/W to the ECU.) The other image shows the connection to the ecu, now what the ecu does who knows??? But notice that the clutch switch on the right goes to the ECU with a Y/L wire which leads me to believe that this isn't the interlock sw.
HAILERS, you mention overriding the clutch switch but your problem didn't go away??
I've also attached a Schematic for the starting system. I'm thinking that by bypassing the Starter cut relay (B/G to B/W) might work... and be easier... and I'd prefer not to add another relay if at all possible.
But you are saying that there are cars w/o starter cut relay and just have the blue plug with it bypassed already, now you've go me rethinking this....
Looking at the Wiring diagram for the starting system. S is the starter power source, B is Battery Source. Interlock is first (B/R) which isn't the clutch switch. I think? Next is the Starter Cut relay (B/G) and a bunch of crap along with it...(LG/Y to the Theft Deterrent System and B/W to the ECU.) The other image shows the connection to the ecu, now what the ecu does who knows??? But notice that the clutch switch on the right goes to the ECU with a Y/L wire which leads me to believe that this isn't the interlock sw.
HAILERS, you mention overriding the clutch switch but your problem didn't go away??
I've also attached a Schematic for the starting system. I'm thinking that by bypassing the Starter cut relay (B/G to B/W) might work... and be easier... and I'd prefer not to add another relay if at all possible.
But you are saying that there are cars w/o starter cut relay and just have the blue plug with it bypassed already, now you've go me rethinking this....
04-02-10, 10:11 PM
#21
Maybe you could snap some photos of what you did or a scheme? So much for my plan, its already bypassed/jumpered. It's the probably the clutch switch or the interlock switch?
OP just ran another relay hard wired to the starter circuit. Relay coil (closes contacts) powered by wire B/G through relay to GND. A Wire from the Batt, through relay contact to B/W which does go to the ECU. Interesting... And the starter spins everytime? Others say it's the clutch switch. Has anyone just replaced the clutch sw? Interlock Sw? Hmmm...
I have attached image of blue plug with jumper under leading coils.
OP just ran another relay hard wired to the starter circuit. Relay coil (closes contacts) powered by wire B/G through relay to GND. A Wire from the Batt, through relay contact to B/W which does go to the ECU. Interesting... And the starter spins everytime? Others say it's the clutch switch. Has anyone just replaced the clutch sw? Interlock Sw? Hmmm...
I have attached image of blue plug with jumper under leading coils.
04-02-10, 11:04 PM
#22
Sorry for the three posts in a row...
But here's a pic of the clutch switch under the dash and the wiring to it. In my first post you can see the other wire (Y/L, L is blue) goes to the ECU the other is for the cruise control circuit. The last image is of the interlock location(F-61)??? Where is it!?
But here's a pic of the clutch switch under the dash and the wiring to it. In my first post you can see the other wire (Y/L, L is blue) goes to the ECU the other is for the cruise control circuit. The last image is of the interlock location(F-61)??? Where is it!?
04-03-10, 04:49 AM
#23
HAILERS
Join Date: May 2001
Location: FORT WORTH, TEXAS,USA
Posts: 20,563
Likes: 0
Received 21 Likes
on
19 Posts
Sorry for the three posts in a row...
But here's a pic of the clutch switch under the dash and the wiring to it. In my first post you can see the other wire (Y/L, L is blue) goes to the ECU the other is for the cruise control circuit. The last image is of the interlock location(F-61)??? Where is it!?
But here's a pic of the clutch switch under the dash and the wiring to it. In my first post you can see the other wire (Y/L, L is blue) goes to the ECU the other is for the cruise control circuit. The last image is of the interlock location(F-61)??? Where is it!?
The interlock switch is on the top area of the pedal and has two large wires going to it. B/R and B/G. Actually the switch is not mounted on the pedal but fwd of the pedal and when you push the pedal in, the plunger of the switch hits against the clutch pedal and that's what makes the switch *make*.
NOT all RX have an interlock switch. I've 86 and turbo 87 that don't have one but do have a 87 na that has it.
IF the blue jumper is pulled off and set to the side, then if you get a piece of wire bare at each end and stuff one end into the socket where the BLACK/WHITE wire is and then touch the other end of the new wire to the batt positive post, the starter will spin. IF it does spin each and every time you do this, then it indicates to me the click, click, click problem is a lack of current going to the starter solenoid from the igition switch for one reason or the other.
To overcome this: you can buy a automobile relay. The negative side of that relays coil will need a wire to ground permanently. The positive side of that relays coil will go to the BLACK/GREEN wire in the plug you pulled the blue jumper off of.
So now the new relay will pull in each time you go to start. So all that is left is to run a wire from one side of the contacts of the new relay to the BLACK/WHITE wire in the elec plug where the blue jumper was............and the other contact of the new relay will go to the engine bay fuse box for a source of power. Hopefully a inline fuse will be used here to protect something or other..
That's what Hozzman did more or less.
04-03-10, 01:11 PM
#24
Moderator
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: https://www2.mazda.com/en/100th/
Posts: 30,805
Received 2,578 Likes
on
1,831 Posts
i just notice that with the relay and the switch, suddenly there is a lot of stuff in the "start" wire, AND the starter is PICKY about needing enough volts