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How easy to convert 13B to accept Hydrogen instead of Petrol?
I searched the forums and found a thread from 2002 that was locked. I usually get a lot of guff for posting on old threads but I also get a lot of guff for making a new thread for everything. Anyway, the link to that thread is: https://www.rx7club.com/2nd-generati...engine-124953/
That being said, I am not here to debate power output, efficiency, smog, or anything to do with the concept of Hydrogen Internal Combustion power. That thread has clearly gone into that enough. I don't want to hear ideas about it's purpose all I want in the replies is, "How easy is it." If it is possible and someone has done it, I will share my reasoning in a new thread.
As far as I know the engine already has a very high compression ratio and will not explode if the liquid petrol is swapped for gaseous hydrogen. The injectors may need to be swapped out for ones that are intended for use with gaseous fuel instead of liquid fuel. And the ECU may need to be retuned. Beyond that, I have no idea.
I just want to know if anyone has personally done this or looked into it. Places or products that sell these parts. There are prototypes of 13B Hydrogen Engines that look nearly identical to the one in my 1990 FC and I just want to know exactly what needs to be done.
I know there are kits that hook into fuel injectors for any car and enhance the gas mileage of any car but I have a Wankel Engine and I don't need to worry about silly things like valve seals.
If you can build a peripheral port engine, you might find adding hydrogen to a rotary easy. Mazda created a dual-fuel Renesis and put it in RX8 and Mazda5 test beds. They used direct injection through the top of the housing for the hydrogen (hence the analogy to PP, since you'd have to modify the housings). You'd also need a means to store the high pressure H2. You'd have to figure out fuel and timing, and figure out what stoich would be, and I'm not sure if you could use a wide and or not to help. It's worth noting that the dual fuel Renesis made about half the power run on H2 as when on gasoline - I recall magazine tests commenting on how slow it was.
Those H2 generator kits to add H2 to the intake air are basically a scam - they amount to the perpetual motion machine Aaroncake referenced at the end of the thread you linked. I'm not aware of ones that plumb into injectors, so if there is such a thing, with its own fuel tank, that might be different.
It's worth noting that the dual fuel Renesis made about half the power run on H2 as when on gasoline - I recall magazine tests commenting on how slow it was.
The dual fuel RX-8 was indeed lacking in power, but they also showed a full time Hyrogen RX-8 that was turbocharged.
Hydrogen has an effective RON octane of over 130!
If we get a decent Hydrogen infrastructure, storage situation and rotaries are allowed to use it (as opposed to ZEV only) the rotary could be god again like in the 1970s. That is a lot of ifs...
California is building the infrastructure, but Hydrogen is still expensive currently at $13/Kg or $6/Lb.
Last edited by BLUE TII; Feb 24, 2016 at 12:26 PM.
If we get a decent Hydrogen infrastructure, storage situation and rotaries are allowed to use it (as opposed to ZEV only) the rotary could be god again like in the 1970s. That is a lot of ifs...
Which, unfortunately does to those pesky laws of physics, likely won't be happening.
To the OP, Mazda has put considerable development into hydrogen rotary engines. There is a direct injected hydrogen 16x being tested. Probably the first step would be to take a look a their SAE publications on the subject.
Fundamentally the equipment to deliver hydrogen to the engine won't be that much different than propane. Any decent standalone could control it.
The sticky thing about hydrogen is getting it. Use energy to split water or use energy to produce chemicals that give it off when reacted or just put the energy into the car instead hydrogen.
The dual fuel RX-8 was indeed lacking in power, but they also showed a full time Hyrogen RX-8 that was turbocharged.
My gosh, when I first read about the dual-fuel RX8s, I kept banging my head against the wall because it felt like such a waste not to turbocharge it. Or to build a dedicated full time hydrogen rotary. And now you're telling me both? I need to know more. This is the first I've heard of anything of the sort.
Hydrogen can be generated directly from tap water by simply electrolyzing it using a Direct current such as solar and wind. If we use grid power, it requires about 68kwhrs of electricity, costing about $3.40 per Kg of Hydrogen. Assuming Hydrogen will cost about $5 per kg after compression and storage, it is still worth the cost. This Hydrogen will give a mileage of 73.4 miles/kg using Fuel cell car. This is equivalent to 3.67 Gallons of Gasoline costing approximately $13.76 at the rate of $3.75 per gallon. It is very clear that Hydrogen is cheaper than Gasoline or Diesel. At the current price,Gasoline costs 275% more than Hydrogen gas.
steps
1: dry cell hydrogen generator, powered by tig welder for POWAH.
2: compress with a/c compressor driven by electric motor. compound compressors to get super high psi. probably blow up sending hydrogen into the electric brushes.
3: store in a 300psi tank. or 5000psi scuba tank.
tank in the trunk, hose, and LPG injector nozzle and tuning software.
4. efr9180.
5.refill tank every 2 miles.
also
Hydrogen dissolves in many metals, and, in addition to leaking out, may have adverse effects on them, such as hydrogen embrittlement,[125] leading to cracks and explosions.[126] Hydrogen gas leaking into external air may spontaneously ignite. Moreover, hydrogen fire, while being extremely hot, is almost invisible, and thus can lead to accidental burns.[127]
Even interpreting the hydrogen data (including safety data) is confounded by a number of phenomena. Many physical and chemical properties of hydrogen depend on the parahydrogen/orthohydrogen ratio (it often takes days or weeks at a given temperature to reach the equilibrium ratio, for which the data is usually given). Hydrogen detonation parameters, such as critical detonation pressure and temperature, strongly depend on the container geometry
guess i'll just make it in the car with the alternator and compressor and store it on board for WOT pulls. keeep the gas for cruise and idle.
the first step will be running my car on the dyno with a supply tank, and measure knock
Last edited by lastphaseofthis; Mar 18, 2016 at 08:07 PM.
steps
1: dry cell hydrogen generator, powered by tig welder for POWAH.
2: compress with a/c compressor driven by electric motor. compound compressors to get super high psi. probably blow up sending hydrogen into the electric brushes.
3: store in a 300psi tank. or 5000psi scuba tank.
tank in the trunk, hose, and LPG injector nozzle and tuning software.
4. efr9180.
5.refill tank every 2 miles.
Sounds like a great way to make a very inefficient electric car.
guess i'll just make it in the car with the alternator and compressor and store it on board for WOT pulls. keeep the gas for cruise and idle.
the first step will be running my car on the dyno with a supply tank, and measure knock
Might want to search the forum and the Google for "hho scam".
Remember the Hindenberg much? If the cost savings as stated are real, it's impressive. I figured Newton's law would have prohibited it. I don't know if I want to drive around with a tank of liquid or even compressed hydrogen every time I go somewhere.
Hydrogen is a lot less volatile than a gas tank filled with half gasoline and half air.
If the Hindenburg would have been filled with gasoline vapors it wouldn't have burned so damn long
Booooom!!!!
that is called a gas/air bomb and I believe they are the biggest bombs we use.
you saying WE done use nukes then..
...hermobaric weapons have the longest sustained blast wave and most destructive force of any known explosive, excluding nuclear weapons
I was more interested in how to convert the engine to accept hydrogen. I already have ideas of how distilled water can be converted into hydrogen and if I needed a fuel cell (Storage Tank) I would just attach a tank inside the cabin in the back seat. I am not really concerned with the debate of how unsafe hydrogen is or how inefficient and underpowered it would be.
steps
1: dry cell hydrogen generator, powered by tig welder for POWAH.
2: compress with a/c compressor driven by electric motor. compound compressors to get super high psi. probably blow up sending hydrogen into the electric brushes.
3: store in a 300psi tank. or 5000psi scuba tank.
tank in the trunk, hose, and LPG injector nozzle and tuning software.
4. efr9180.
5.refill tank every 2 miles.
also
guess i'll just make it in the car with the alternator and compressor and store it on board for WOT pulls. keeep the gas for cruise and idle.
the first step will be running my car on the dyno with a supply tank, and measure knock
Originally Posted by visatrade
I was more interested in how to convert the engine to accept hydrogen. I already have ideas of how distilled water can be converted into hydrogen and if I needed a fuel cell (Storage Tank) I would just attach a tank inside the cabin in the back seat. I am not really concerned with the debate of how unsafe hydrogen is or how inefficient and underpowered it would be.
