matt87FC

iTrader: (12)

Ok so my engine is/will be once it is together a mesh of a ton of parts so bare with me here. Lol

to begin with my engine specs are: s4 t2 with reman s4 NA housings modified for turbo application (coolant passage drilled, exhaust sleeves swapped), s4 na rotors (because I have them availible and my t2 ones were ruined.) New Atkins 2 piece 2mm apex seals and soft seals. Oil control rings and side seals all clearanced to spec so no need for replacement. Stock UIM and LIM running a rebuilt with less than 400 mmiles stock s4 Turbo. Non ported Turbo manifold for now (probably will do it though). Also will be running vmount. Plan to do emissions delete and Omp delete and premix. Stock s4 t2 ecu and rc fcd. Removved power steering and running manual rack (if that matters at all)

So here is my situation, I was under the impression thay i could run and have a decent amount of power, shooting for 230-250, while it being semi-reliable on the stock ecu and fcd. After finding a little more info I am not so sure now. Plans are to run no more than 10 psi.

So my question is, do I have to get a full standalone for my aspirations? I am pretty sure that trek doesn't make a system mapped for higher compression turbo engines so that probably wpuldnt be an option for me right? So what do I need to do to run this engine properly? I am hoping you guys can give me some guidance here because up uuntil today i thought that my stock ecu was sufficient for my meager goals but now i am worried it isnt and I already have more mkney tied up in this project than i planned. Haha. If standalone is absolutely neccessary, what would be my best option as far as bang for my buck and user friendliness as I wwant to learn to tune it myself.

gameover2145

iTrader: (1)

Rtek 2.1 will do. Should support your application at a fraction of the cost of a full standalone

matt87FC

iTrader: (12)

Yeah i forgot that they recently released v2.1. I forgot to mention that i am using stock injectors as well. Thats why previous versions of rtek arent an option. Will also be running a t2 or better fuel pump, and boost controller to keep boost no higher than 10 paid. I really dont want to have to get rtek if it isnt needed though. So anyone else out hthere know if this is doable on stock ecu if staying under 10 psi. Or would the car run lean at upper psi levels?

Tofuball

You mean at a higher cost then a full standalone.

A lot of used EMS systems go for around the same price
A new full MSII kit is $260
A new MSI is $150
A pre-assembled one is around $350

The RTEK 2.1 is $450, unless I'm reading the site wrong. I prefer it less because it's based on the stock ECU and its many, many limitations.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

the megasquirt has a much steeper learning curve as well as requires part modifications and adaptations to even get the engine running. it is more for the experienced DIYer.

BUT

you can often find good deals on used standalones like older haltechs and microtech ECUs which are easier to setup and learn on than even the Rtek, which has poor resolution adjustments with requirements to adjust induvidual cells which total close to 500 cells, that's thousands of clicks and wasted fuel/tuning time!

while i consider microtech to be archaic by today's technology, the Rtek is a decent diagnostic tool but a rough EMS, it has limited desirability. the biggest pro to the Rtek is it is completely plug n play and takes literally 5 minutes to install, click and drive.

so

megasquirt requires a fair amount of knowledge on the workings in and around the engine as well as fabrication skills for bits that aren't still available pre-fabricated. but if you take the time to learn you can have a decent EMS for under $500 all said and done, with a bag of options for expansion.

Rtek is the easiest for installation and setup but time consuming again for actual tuning and very limited in its range of adjustment and really has no room for growth above ~325WHP.

microtech and haltech can be found used with pre-wired flying leads for the FC for less than $1k but have the best ajustment levels, yet not as many bells and whistles as even the megasquirt offers, with microtech trailing the pack with the least options but IMO, the easiest to tune.

gameover2145

iTrader: (1)

What size injectors? The NA 460cc or the T2 550cc? Regardless, it would be wise to use at least 720cc secondaries.

Also, you will need a bigger fuel pump for your goals. The Walboro 255LPH will be more than sufficient for what you want and will be great up to around 400whp.

I do not know a whole lot about the Megasquirt, but I'm sure its not as easy to use / setup as the Rtek.

Obviously the best option here, withstanding any sort of budget, is a full standalone EMS like a Haltech, Motec, Microtech, etc.

The only reason I suggest the Rtek 2.1 is because of his power goals and obvious unfamiliarity with tuning, he is going to want some that is easy to install and that already has a decent map that will allow for different injectors.

Tofuball

This is a reply to Karak's post:
Perhaps the steep learning curve was true in the past.
You can purchase plug-and-play boards for the RX-7 from DIYAUTOTUNE.com. No modifications required.
You can download an existing map for an RX-7 and go from there, lots of helpful information in the RX-7Club MS forum.

You're correct about buying older ECUs. Personally I'd steer away from the older Haltechs but I've heard good things about the Microtech ECUs.

This is a reply to gameover:
If you can't tune, don't buy a device that lets you tune. What do you think the RTEK 2.1 is? It lets you tune the stock ECU!
If you're going to tune your own car, learn what you're doing before you blow something up.
If you're going to pay a tuner to tune your car, get a decent ECU to start with! Find out what your tuner likes and go from there.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

i'm considering playing with the megasquirt, i was going off of old opinions as i haven't had time to build one and set it up. making a crank trigger and all of that was a real deterrent for me to build one before, as well as all maps being from scratch. perhaps it would be a good place to start with the REPU as it is going to be EFI.

drawback to other standalones is microtech and haltech are located in australia, so getting repairs/changes done is a pain, but i have only ever even heard of one microtech unit failing for a driver circuit controller in the years i have been dealing with them. but i try to steer away from microtech these days as they still have no way of saving maps externally, as a tuner this is a huge drawback to tuning them and increases more and more as more are installed.

gameover2145

iTrader: (1)

I don't disagree with you. Getting yourself in over your head with something like an ECU will more than likely result in a blown engine. The OP just asked what ECU would suit his needs (making the assumption that budget was relatively limited as was knowledge of tuning) and I thought the Rtek would. I'm not saying he won't blow his engine using it without proper knowledge; just that it is the easiest, cheapest way to accomplish what he wanted to do.

If the OP had a tuner, I would assume that the tuner would be answering these questions for the most part and we wouldn't have this thread to start with.

Tofuball

You haven't had to make a crank trigger for them for years. Years ago they had support for our CAS.
You can download other people's maps, you don't have to start from scratch.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

then i'd much rather support it as an option than before, where upgrades to the other namebrand standalones cost a namebrand price, as well as months for turnaround while your car sits in the garage.

matt87FC

iTrader: (12)

Correct, I do not have a tuner. I do have a cousin that has tuned his cobra mustang and built all the timing and fuel maps from scratch on his. I know rx7s and mustangs are nothing alike but I assume basic fuel mapping and whatnot is generally the same concept right? I dont kknow what ems he used off hand but i could use his familiarity with ems systems and have that experience at my disposal. I thought iI did mention but iI guess not, i am using,for now until i get more familiar with turbo applications, the stock t2 550 injectors and WILL be running a walbro 255 fuel pump.

I plan on doing all the research possible on whichever ems I would choose . I dont mind having to modify things if need be or adding other parts needed to run an ems. I also dont mind waiting to start my car another mknth or more longer to start the car so i can do all research and learn the ems as much as possible and not mess anything up. The car is not a primary vehicle for me. Its alalready been down 6 months at this point so time isn't in a crunch. Although the sooner the better cuz id LOVE to drive the car again. Haha

But basically the short awnser to ny first question is thatthat this car CANNOT run on stock t2 ecu correct? And basically this is because the ecu will be reading lets say 7 psi and supplying fuel for that 7 psi when in actuality because of the higher compression it should be supplying fuel for the equivilant of 9 psi and not the 7 so the car will either run too lean/rich the higher the compression goes. Am icorrect with this statement?

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

should be professionally tuned by an experienced rotary tuner.

issue is that knock usually is undetectable until it's already too late especially with a high compression turbo setup so timing is very key to survival as well as overly rich maps to start with, even richer than turbo piston powered engines require.

sharingan 19

iTrader: (16)

For the record, the highest power rtek is 380whp...

If the op wants to upgrade turbos in the future then a full ems might be a better option, however nothing would be easier to tune on the stocker than an rtek. That being said , if the tuning is going to be outsourced, just go w/what the tuner is comfortable w/.

matt87FC

iTrader: (12)

That is understandable and getting a tuner is an option if need be. But id LIKE to learn the system myself and be able to modify it myself when/if I upgrade injectors and things like that. I've done everything on the car myself so far and I would like to be able to do the ems as well. Not saying that I am beyond going to a tuner if need be, but I feel with proper research and understanding and the familiarity that my cousin already has with ems systems (I know piston and rotorys are way different I am just talking about basic ems and tuning familiarity and eexperience in general) that I have a decent chance of being able to do this myself. Now with that said, i know rtek is the easiest as far as plug and play, but if i were looking to spend about 500 on an ems, either new or used, what would be my best option as far as "newb" tuner experience around that budget. Not saying that upwards of $1k isnt an option, just throwing out numbers as an example.

So far we have:
Rtek- very easy and plug and play but pain to adjust fuel and timing maps.
Microtech-sounds decent but runs more generally money wise.
MS II-cheaper but from what i have read needs some small modification to cas, as well as adding resistors and whatnot to be able to use stock components on a t2 engine.
Aem ems- haven't looked much into it yet but generally more expensive as well.

Any other options or things I got wrong/need to addadd about each system?

matt87FC

iTrader: (12)

Alright everyone I have been doing some research on this and I have found out that quite a number of people have done my type of engine build aand successfully run the engine on stock t2 electronics. Now granted that this is also only at stock boost levels. But for my application, that's all I need aas i only have a stock turbo anyways. I've read that even the na ecu can handle up to 5psi of boost and still run properly. Aaroncake chimes in here on this thread and says so actually:

https://www.rx7club.com/2nd-generation-specific-1986-1992-17/t2-motor-n-rotors-695641/

So for my solution I am going to run my n332 ecu on stock boost. I already have my walbro 255 on its way and am going to get an aftermarket fpr and set the pressure a little higher than stock so it will run a tad bit richer than stock. I feel I can safely run this setup for a few months until I can get an rtek 2.1. I do understand why its neccessary to get a standalone ecu but at this point with my current power goals and tjis being 95% a street car, do not feel that it is urgently needed until i wish to upgrade to larger Turbo, higher boost and larger injectors. Anyone else care tto chime in here and let me know if I am missing anything or any words of advice?

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

Whoa...What's the point of going through this work to run stock boost? Yeah, the stock TII ECU will run the higher compression engine. But seriously, get a programmable ECU like the RTek. The TII ECU is able to handle this because the stock Mazda tune is VERY conservative (except in timing...). But a top mount, high compression rotors and raised boost on the stock turbo will quickly pass what the TII ECU can do reliably.

You NEED to be able to pull timing when using high compression rotors, and the stock ECU won't.

matt87FC

iTrader: (12)

I will be running v-mount and only stock turbo for now. I may hhave mis-spoke, when i mean stok boost levels i mean the levels at which the stock turbo can produce. My setup will consist of n332 running s4 t2 electronics with emissions delete and premix. Rb fcd. Walbro 255 and a fpr. Stock injectors. Everything stock except for rotors. And running NO MORE than 10 psi of boost until i get and rtek and larger secondaries.

The plan is to get rtek, in a few months but run the n332 until I can upgrade properly.

matt87FC

iTrader: (12)

alright so I have decided on Rtek. Now my new question is, I have a chance at getting an rtek 2.0 with palm and sync wire and cd's loaded with timing and fuel maps, for a decent price.

Or I can just ship my ecu to rtek and get 2.1.

Is v.2.1 much better than 2.0 in any substantial way that it should totally negate the deal Id be getting on v.2.0?

Would i have to adjust my fuel more than +/- 37.5%, among the other added software added in v.2.1?

thanks,
Matt

sharingan 19

iTrader: (16)

Since the fuel timing maps are free I would let that hold too much sway over you... Especially since either one will have to be optimized for your setup.

It all depends on price. The vast majority of the 2.1's features are available on the 2.0, for an exhaustive list go to digitaltuning.com . Off the top of my head I believe the % adjustment is greater on the 2.1, and they may have added an input our output. You won't need significant adjustments for your setup; stock injectors, stock ports, stock turbo........However, as Aaron stated you will need to pull timing to compensate for those high comp rotors.

matt87FC

iTrader: (12)

thats exactly what I am thinking and told the person selling the 2.0 version that the extra maps should not be considered in the price as they would not benefit me in any way. They alone are not an incentive at all, just listed it because it was part of the offer. I checked out the rtek section and read up on the differences between 2.0 and 2.1.

-I doubt with stock turbo, stock injectors, stock ports, That i will have to adjust the fuel upwards of 37% that the 2.1 allows as opposed to 2.0.
-Also the ability to use egr as rpm based switched output probably will not be benificial to me as I will not be running an egr.
-Using the variable resistor as a general input MAY be beneficial, But i dont know how much as I have never tuned a vehicle before.
-The expanded fuel table MAY be good for me as I will have to adjust fuel, But i highly doubt that by me running SIMPLY ONLY high compression rotors would make it more needed than guys running much larger turbos and MUCH larger injectors and boost levels.
-Having a startup fuel curve can come in handy for cold mornings going to work, but not something that the anti-flooding software installed in older versions of rtek.
-Software ISC and variable resistor, I honestly dont know what this means but Im going to find out.
-MAP based timing mode, DOubt i will use that anyways.
-Secondary transition stumble elimination, nice i guess, but not really needed.

So obviously I am weighing more towards the v2.0 but thats why I am here. So you good people may tell me where I am right and where Im being a dummy.

Now keep in mind, this car is going to be primarily STREET driven as a leisure car. NOT a dd, but with reliability in mind. I want the ability to be able to track it a few times if I want though. Obviously once I use this setup for a while I will get bored and want to upgrade in a couple years. I just want something I can enjoy for a few years while I learn the ins and outs of turbo and tuning.

Wms10th

iTrader: (2)

I would also get a wide band AFR meter so that you will know where you are with AFR's. It helps me a lot.