3 Rotor Conversion KIt!!!
02-24-03, 01:05 AM
#352
Originally posted by fdracer
lingenfelter completely trounced the pfs 3-rotor in the car and driver supercar challenge. the pfs 20b didn't even finish the event and the lingenfelter corvette has won 2 years in a row.
lingenfelter completely trounced the pfs 3-rotor in the car and driver supercar challenge. the pfs 20b didn't even finish the event and the lingenfelter corvette has won 2 years in a row.
Hmmm it looks like someone didn't read that article close enough! Quote" The Lingenfelter was the only car of the group that was able to reach 150mph within the limitations of the short straitaway and is therefore the clear and unambiguous winner" I quess car & driver didn't care about the road course times. Performance wise we rotorheads understand that a vehicles ablity to handle a road course is a testament of a cars true capabilities. I'm sure you will understand that The Rx7 completely destoyed the Lingenfelter in the roadcourse secton of the test. I think the differance was about 7 sec. I don't know about you, but in the wonderfull world of autocross racing, that is an ***-woopin. Also the Rx7 completed the entire test faster than the competition(from start to finish). Now about the Rx7 not being able to finish! The Rx7 was able to finish the event. It just had some minor problems along the way(neighter of which had nothing to do with the engines durability) As I read one of the pressure relief valves blew off the intake manifold(simple fix) broken T-fitting in the turbo plumbing(odviously a fabrication problem with Peter's setup) And finally a ruptured radiator hose(once again a very common failure under these conditions). The Rx7's durability had noting to do with the car. It just goes to show you the differances between tuners and their abilities to provide good products. One last thing. Shall we talk about value? The Rx7 was in fact the cheapest production vehicle in the contest period. And nooo it's not because the Rx7 was a used vehicle. Car & driver acually took into account the Rx7's price as a new vehicle. Needless to say, the Rx7 was at least 23k cheaper than the Lingenfelter. And thats with a complete engine swap. Ask yourself this question should it really cost 44k for a tuner to remove your engine,rebuild it with higher performance parts and reinstall that same engine with two turbos,intercoolers,engine managment, and misc items? I think not! At least with a 3rotor conversion, you can see were your money goes.
02-24-03, 02:59 PM
#353
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i just got done reading all 15 pages, and i need a 20b!!
so on top of the $35k for the conversion swap, i would still need a tranny (+5k), roll cage and a rear end?
just out of curiousity what size tires/wheels would it take to put all this horsepower to the ground? would i need to get a widebody kit to get some more rubber back there?
so on top of the $35k for the conversion swap, i would still need a tranny (+5k), roll cage and a rear end?
just out of curiousity what size tires/wheels would it take to put all this horsepower to the ground? would i need to get a widebody kit to get some more rubber back there?
02-24-03, 09:04 PM
#354
Uh,
PFS's 3-rotor creamed everyone on the roadcourse by about 7 seconds as i recall, what article were you reading?
I've seen (and indeed started) that car, and it wasn't really meant for track duty (its barely driven since the customer never retrieved it. No coilovers (koni/PFS springs which are too soft for the track), no serious track reliability mods. its a customer's street/fun/show car. Built specifically for that challenge (as i suspect the lingenfelter cars are), there would be no contest.
Almost no engine-swapped car is worth a plugged nickel as far as true resale... thats not unique to FDs.
I'm also a little tired of the Porsche "statosphere". Ever been in in a pre-996 911? Its a Volkswagen. Smells like my cousin's old Karman Ghia... and even shares some interior pieces (i'm not kidding). They are fantastic cars, but lets get real... a great deal of the "value" is in the nameplate.
PFS's 3-rotor creamed everyone on the roadcourse by about 7 seconds as i recall, what article were you reading?
I've seen (and indeed started) that car, and it wasn't really meant for track duty (its barely driven since the customer never retrieved it. No coilovers (koni/PFS springs which are too soft for the track), no serious track reliability mods. its a customer's street/fun/show car. Built specifically for that challenge (as i suspect the lingenfelter cars are), there would be no contest.
Almost no engine-swapped car is worth a plugged nickel as far as true resale... thats not unique to FDs.
I'm also a little tired of the Porsche "statosphere". Ever been in in a pre-996 911? Its a Volkswagen. Smells like my cousin's old Karman Ghia... and even shares some interior pieces (i'm not kidding). They are fantastic cars, but lets get real... a great deal of the "value" is in the nameplate.
Originally posted by fdracer
there's no many things wrong w/ your post i don't even know where to begin. gtr's have much better trannies than fd's, the reason they switch to sequential is cause awd drag launches destroy trannies like they we're toothpicks. subject the fd tranny to the same abuse w/ a high hp 20b, and it'll break too. funny that you mention the tt z06's aren't bullet proof. lingenfelter completely trounced the pfs 3-rotor in the car and driver supercar challenge. the pfs 20b didn't even finish the event and the lingenfelter corvette has won 2 years in a row. if the tt z06 isn't bulletproof then a 20b fd isn't even bb gun proof. it's still subject to all the qualities of a rotary. it's still weaker against detonation, tends to overheat, drinks more fuel, has worse emmissions and has less torque than it's piston counterparts. to me the fact that fd's can be had for $10k is not an advantage as you make it seem, it's a reflection of it's shitty build quality and reliability. it's not these other cars' fault that the fd was so shitty that it's depreciated so much over the years while they've maintained much more resale value. i can't really take the current asking price for fd's in to account, because if i did the only cars i could compare them to would be civics, dodge neons, etc. when they we're all new they were all at least in the same neighborhood. it's still a fairer comparison than w/ a ruf porsche which is in a totally different stratosphere.
it's pointless to compare price when it comes to a 3-rotor fd. this is a mod for die hard rotary guys, that's it. you will never recoup you're investment no matter what. you can't say it's a great deal for the money, because you really don't have an asset in your possesion. a ruf porsche is an asset, you can resell it for pretty damn close to what you bought it for. if build a hypothetical 3-rotor fd to the exact same performance numbers as a ruf 911 turbo, then you try to sell both at the exact same price, the ratio of buyers for the ruf over the fd will be 1000 to 1. a great deal isn't measured in how much you paid for something, it's valued by how much of an asset that you get out of your purchase. in actuallity the ruf porsche is a much better deal. but you can't put a dollar value on how much enjoyment someone gets out of their car, so if a 20b fd is what someone truly loves then its a steal at any price.
there's no many things wrong w/ your post i don't even know where to begin. gtr's have much better trannies than fd's, the reason they switch to sequential is cause awd drag launches destroy trannies like they we're toothpicks. subject the fd tranny to the same abuse w/ a high hp 20b, and it'll break too. funny that you mention the tt z06's aren't bullet proof. lingenfelter completely trounced the pfs 3-rotor in the car and driver supercar challenge. the pfs 20b didn't even finish the event and the lingenfelter corvette has won 2 years in a row. if the tt z06 isn't bulletproof then a 20b fd isn't even bb gun proof. it's still subject to all the qualities of a rotary. it's still weaker against detonation, tends to overheat, drinks more fuel, has worse emmissions and has less torque than it's piston counterparts. to me the fact that fd's can be had for $10k is not an advantage as you make it seem, it's a reflection of it's shitty build quality and reliability. it's not these other cars' fault that the fd was so shitty that it's depreciated so much over the years while they've maintained much more resale value. i can't really take the current asking price for fd's in to account, because if i did the only cars i could compare them to would be civics, dodge neons, etc. when they we're all new they were all at least in the same neighborhood. it's still a fairer comparison than w/ a ruf porsche which is in a totally different stratosphere.
it's pointless to compare price when it comes to a 3-rotor fd. this is a mod for die hard rotary guys, that's it. you will never recoup you're investment no matter what. you can't say it's a great deal for the money, because you really don't have an asset in your possesion. a ruf porsche is an asset, you can resell it for pretty damn close to what you bought it for. if build a hypothetical 3-rotor fd to the exact same performance numbers as a ruf 911 turbo, then you try to sell both at the exact same price, the ratio of buyers for the ruf over the fd will be 1000 to 1. a great deal isn't measured in how much you paid for something, it's valued by how much of an asset that you get out of your purchase. in actuallity the ruf porsche is a much better deal. but you can't put a dollar value on how much enjoyment someone gets out of their car, so if a 20b fd is what someone truly loves then its a steal at any price.
02-24-03, 09:35 PM
#355
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20Bs for Everyone
RedHot7 I feel the same way after reading this theard. I would think that changing the transmission and LSD as good upgrades for this package. Although the Marcos say's as long as you don't launch the car the transmission should hold up fine. The Peter Farrell 7 from the Car & Driver supercar challenge had a stock transmission and LSD. The car also had a forward mounted 20B and still was great on the road course. I can only image what low rear mounted one would do, mentioned by rx7tt95.
What's really great about the 20B engine is the torque. Marcos didn't have the numbers on the dyno sheet, but I called him and he stated 515 lb/ft at the low boost. Maybe he'll post the numbers.
As far was wheels go I would think 9" in the front and 10" in the rear should be the minimum starting point.
What's really great about the 20B engine is the torque. Marcos didn't have the numbers on the dyno sheet, but I called him and he stated 515 lb/ft at the low boost. Maybe he'll post the numbers.
As far was wheels go I would think 9" in the front and 10" in the rear should be the minimum starting point.
02-25-03, 12:38 AM
#356
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Re: 20Bs for Everyone
Originally posted by am3210
The Peter Farrell 7 from the Car & Driver supercar challenge had a .... forward mounted 20B and still was great on the road course. I can only image what low rear mounted one would do, mentioned by rx7tt95.
The Peter Farrell 7 from the Car & Driver supercar challenge had a .... forward mounted 20B and still was great on the road course. I can only image what low rear mounted one would do, mentioned by rx7tt95.
What's really great about the 20B engine is the torque. Marcos didn't have the numbers on the dyno sheet, but I called him and he stated 515 lb/ft at the low boost.
As far was wheels go I would think 9" in the front and 10" in the rear should be the minimum starting point. [/B]
As far was wheels go I would think 9" in the front and 10" in the rear should be the minimum starting point. [/B]
Marcos when you say you can't launch the car, does that include mashing it in 1st on a roll? Several years ago I downloaded a vid of Steve kan driving a 3 rotor and at one point the driver told steve he could open it up but then quickly added NOT IN FIRST!! I figured it was just b/c of traction limitations.
02-25-03, 02:56 PM
#357
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Originally posted by t-von
Hmmm it looks like someone didn't read that article close enough! Quote" The Lingenfelter was the only car of the group that was able to reach 150mph within the limitations of the short straitaway and is therefore the clear and unambiguous winner" I quess car & driver didn't care about the road course times. Performance wise we rotorheads understand that a vehicles ablity to handle a road course is a testament of a cars true capabilities. I'm sure you will understand that The Rx7 completely destoyed the Lingenfelter in the roadcourse secton of the test. I think the differance was about 7 sec. I don't know about you, but in the wonderfull world of autocross racing, that is an ***-woopin. Also the Rx7 completed the entire test faster than the competition(from start to finish). Now about the Rx7 not being able to finish! The Rx7 was able to finish the event. It just had some minor problems along the way(neighter of which had nothing to do with the engines durability) As I read one of the pressure relief valves blew off the intake manifold(simple fix) broken T-fitting in the turbo plumbing(odviously a fabrication problem with Peter's setup) And finally a ruptured radiator hose(once again a very common failure under these conditions). The Rx7's durability had noting to do with the car. It just goes to show you the differances between tuners and their abilities to provide good products. One last thing. Shall we talk about value? The Rx7 was in fact the cheapest production vehicle in the contest period. And nooo it's not because the Rx7 was a used vehicle. Car & driver acually took into account the Rx7's price as a new vehicle. Needless to say, the Rx7 was at least 23k cheaper than the Lingenfelter. And thats with a complete engine swap. Ask yourself this question should it really cost 44k for a tuner to remove your engine,rebuild it with higher performance parts and reinstall that same engine with two turbos,intercoolers,engine managment, and misc items? I think not! At least with a 3rotor conversion, you can see were your money goes.
Hmmm it looks like someone didn't read that article close enough! Quote" The Lingenfelter was the only car of the group that was able to reach 150mph within the limitations of the short straitaway and is therefore the clear and unambiguous winner" I quess car & driver didn't care about the road course times. Performance wise we rotorheads understand that a vehicles ablity to handle a road course is a testament of a cars true capabilities. I'm sure you will understand that The Rx7 completely destoyed the Lingenfelter in the roadcourse secton of the test. I think the differance was about 7 sec. I don't know about you, but in the wonderfull world of autocross racing, that is an ***-woopin. Also the Rx7 completed the entire test faster than the competition(from start to finish). Now about the Rx7 not being able to finish! The Rx7 was able to finish the event. It just had some minor problems along the way(neighter of which had nothing to do with the engines durability) As I read one of the pressure relief valves blew off the intake manifold(simple fix) broken T-fitting in the turbo plumbing(odviously a fabrication problem with Peter's setup) And finally a ruptured radiator hose(once again a very common failure under these conditions). The Rx7's durability had noting to do with the car. It just goes to show you the differances between tuners and their abilities to provide good products. One last thing. Shall we talk about value? The Rx7 was in fact the cheapest production vehicle in the contest period. And nooo it's not because the Rx7 was a used vehicle. Car & driver acually took into account the Rx7's price as a new vehicle. Needless to say, the Rx7 was at least 23k cheaper than the Lingenfelter. And thats with a complete engine swap. Ask yourself this question should it really cost 44k for a tuner to remove your engine,rebuild it with higher performance parts and reinstall that same engine with two turbos,intercoolers,engine managment, and misc items? I think not! At least with a 3rotor conversion, you can see were your money goes.
Meanwhile, the Peter Farrell Supercars RX-7 suffered at least three malfunctions that sidelined it for most of the afternoon.
yeah, this is what i call an ***-kicking. one type of car can't even stay put together for 1 ******* day, and the the other wins 2 years in a row. no matter what excuses you come up w/ the fact still remains one car didn't break and the other did, one car won the competition and the other couldn't even stay in it. you're saying $44k is too much for a performance upgrade to a car that's won 2 years in a row? so your saying you'd rather pay $47k (what the owner paid pfs) for a car to sit in a trailer all day, wow that's ****** brilliant. i've never said that a 3-rotor fd couldn't kick the **** out of pretty much anything on 4 wheels, hell a 2 rotor fd could do that. the thing is how often is the 3-rotor gonna be in perfect running condition? read my post, i never said a 3-rotor won't be great, i said it'll still be plagued by all the reliability problems so prevalent in turbocharged rotaries. how are you gonna cool that beast on a road course when we can barely cool a 2-rotor? you can get the biggest radiator in the world, but the same amount of air is still gonna pass thru the front bumper opening, so ultimately you'll still have cooling problems. that's gonna be even more compounded w/ the 4-in. thick fmic mva's gonna put in front of the rad. i don't know why i keep writing, i don't even really care anymore. i guess you guys are right, the 3-rotor fd is the king of all cars price-wise and performance-wise, let's compare it to every car on the road. i'm sure the people who bought $600k enzo ferraris and $1mil. mclaren's are just kicking themselves for being idiots. they're probably crying in their mansions right now, because they don't have a 3-rotor fd, the best bargain in the world. i'm sure they're not happy at all w/ they're lives. maybe someone on this board will be kind enought to trade their 3-rotor fd for one of those cars. nah, who would be stupid enough to do that, those cars are such "bad deals".
02-25-03, 09:45 PM
#359
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Honestly, I don't blame the FD nor the 20B for the apparent "failure", more so the guy who put the car together. I was none impressed with the general installation of the engine into the FD chassis or the ancilliaries. Like I said, if you'd like, I can post pics of blown Z06's too. Or E46 M3's. There's lot's to be said about a car's prep for an event too. I don't think that car was prepped correctly. I also doubt the engine was putting out the claimed 600hp, more like 450.
As for the cooling issue, have you ever tracked your car or is your "overheating on the track" just 2nd hand knowledge? I've tracked my car plenty as have many members on this list. I've got news for you...we don't have overheating problems because we keep the cars properly maintained. Also, the stock opening is not too small, despite what you may have heard. Those more gifted than I in thermodynamics and aerodynamics can chime in. None the less, it's an easy swap to an aftermarket front fascia. Heck, you can get decent ones for $250 now.
Man do you have a chimp on your shoulder. Seriously, it is the RX7 forum and this is a topic about swapping in a 20B. Did you think we'd all agree with you? Start a new thread instead of hijacking this one. You're definitely entitled to your views and I have been listening. I just don't agree with you. If I'm naive, that's ok. I'm having fun and it's my money.
Michel
As for the cooling issue, have you ever tracked your car or is your "overheating on the track" just 2nd hand knowledge? I've tracked my car plenty as have many members on this list. I've got news for you...we don't have overheating problems because we keep the cars properly maintained. Also, the stock opening is not too small, despite what you may have heard. Those more gifted than I in thermodynamics and aerodynamics can chime in. None the less, it's an easy swap to an aftermarket front fascia. Heck, you can get decent ones for $250 now.
Man do you have a chimp on your shoulder. Seriously, it is the RX7 forum and this is a topic about swapping in a 20B. Did you think we'd all agree with you? Start a new thread instead of hijacking this one. You're definitely entitled to your views and I have been listening. I just don't agree with you. If I'm naive, that's ok. I'm having fun and it's my money.
Michel
02-25-03, 09:45 PM
#360
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As others have said I think the reliability issues that plagued that particular 3-rotor should be attributed the work done by PFS and not rotary powered cars in general. The next year PFS entered an IS300 and it burned a hole through a piston and DNFed. See a pattern here? This conclusion is further supported by the fact that the parts that failed were not rotary specific. Poor worksmanship is poor worksmanship, don't blame the car.
I think a lot of important questions have been raised by this thread (in between the bickering
) about what needs to be done to the rest of the car when doing a 3-rotor install.
Just to recap:
1. What are the limits of the stock gearbox. Marcos said you can't launch it, but what does that mean?
2. Does the conversion as outlined at the beginning of the thread provide enough cooling capacity to hit the road course (assuming the car has a stock nose and an aftermarket radiator), and is there a way to address this problem (griffin rad ect)?
3. Are 10in rims with 285/30s adaquate to put the power down-ie no wheel spin at expressway speeds or is it necessary to flare the rear fenders and use more substantial rubber?
I think a lot of important questions have been raised by this thread (in between the bickering
) about what needs to be done to the rest of the car when doing a 3-rotor install. Just to recap:
1. What are the limits of the stock gearbox. Marcos said you can't launch it, but what does that mean?
2. Does the conversion as outlined at the beginning of the thread provide enough cooling capacity to hit the road course (assuming the car has a stock nose and an aftermarket radiator), and is there a way to address this problem (griffin rad ect)?
3. Are 10in rims with 285/30s adaquate to put the power down-ie no wheel spin at expressway speeds
or is it necessary to flare the rear fenders and use more substantial rubber?
02-26-03, 12:57 AM
#361
Originally posted by CCarlisi
As others have said I think the reliability issues that plagued that particular 3-rotor should be attributed the work done by PFS and not rotary powered cars in general. The next year PFS entered an IS300 and it burned a hole through a piston and DNFed. See a pattern here? This conclusion is further supported by the fact that the parts that failed were not rotary specific. Poor worksmanship is poor worksmanship, don't blame the car.
As others have said I think the reliability issues that plagued that particular 3-rotor should be attributed the work done by PFS and not rotary powered cars in general. The next year PFS entered an IS300 and it burned a hole through a piston and DNFed. See a pattern here? This conclusion is further supported by the fact that the parts that failed were not rotary specific. Poor worksmanship is poor worksmanship, don't blame the car.
Very well put! In so many words this is the same thing I said before but, odviously Fdracer can't read or comprehend worth a damn! Notice his own quote "Your saying $44k is to much for a performance upgrade to a car that won 2 years in a row. So your saying you'd rather pay 47k(what the PFS owner paid) for a car to sit in a trailer all day,wow thats ****** brilliant". I am amazed at your lack of comprehension! The 47k is what the total cost of the PFS Rx7 cost(engine swap 35k,suspension upgrades 2k,wheels & tires 3,500k, brakes 3,500k,99 spec front nose,and rear spoiler 3k). Thats only 3k more than just the Lingenfelter engine upgrade by itself. Like I said before, value wise, there is no contest! By the way, you do understand simple math dont you?
02-26-03, 04:40 PM
#362
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Originally posted by rx7tt95
Honestly, I don't blame the FD nor the 20B for the apparent "failure", more so the guy who put the car together. I was none impressed with the general installation of the engine into the FD chassis or the ancilliaries. Like I said, if you'd like, I can post pics of blown Z06's too. Or E46 M3's. There's lot's to be said about a car's prep for an event too. I don't think that car was prepped correctly. I also doubt the engine was putting out the claimed 600hp, more like 450.
As for the cooling issue, have you ever tracked your car or is your "overheating on the track" just 2nd hand knowledge? I've tracked my car plenty as have many members on this list. I've got news for you...we don't have overheating problems because we keep the cars properly maintained. Also, the stock opening is not too small, despite what you may have heard. Those more gifted than I in thermodynamics and aerodynamics can chime in. None the less, it's an easy swap to an aftermarket front fascia. Heck, you can get decent ones for $250 now.
Michel
Honestly, I don't blame the FD nor the 20B for the apparent "failure", more so the guy who put the car together. I was none impressed with the general installation of the engine into the FD chassis or the ancilliaries. Like I said, if you'd like, I can post pics of blown Z06's too. Or E46 M3's. There's lot's to be said about a car's prep for an event too. I don't think that car was prepped correctly. I also doubt the engine was putting out the claimed 600hp, more like 450.
As for the cooling issue, have you ever tracked your car or is your "overheating on the track" just 2nd hand knowledge? I've tracked my car plenty as have many members on this list. I've got news for you...we don't have overheating problems because we keep the cars properly maintained. Also, the stock opening is not too small, despite what you may have heard. Those more gifted than I in thermodynamics and aerodynamics can chime in. None the less, it's an easy swap to an aftermarket front fascia. Heck, you can get decent ones for $250 now.
Michel
02-26-03, 04:42 PM
#363
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Originally posted by t-von
Very well put! In so many words this is the same thing I said before but, odviously Fdracer can't read or comprehend worth a damn! Notice his own quote "Your saying $44k is to much for a performance upgrade to a car that won 2 years in a row. So your saying you'd rather pay 47k(what the PFS owner paid) for a car to sit in a trailer all day,wow thats ****** brilliant". I am amazed at your lack of comprehension! The 47k is what the total cost of the PFS Rx7 cost(engine swap 35k,suspension upgrades 2k,wheels & tires 3,500k, brakes 3,500k,99 spec front nose,and rear spoiler 3k). Thats only 3k more than just the Lingenfelter engine upgrade by itself. Like I said before, value wise, there is no contest! By the way, you do understand simple math dont you?
Very well put! In so many words this is the same thing I said before but, odviously Fdracer can't read or comprehend worth a damn! Notice his own quote "Your saying $44k is to much for a performance upgrade to a car that won 2 years in a row. So your saying you'd rather pay 47k(what the PFS owner paid) for a car to sit in a trailer all day,wow thats ****** brilliant". I am amazed at your lack of comprehension! The 47k is what the total cost of the PFS Rx7 cost(engine swap 35k,suspension upgrades 2k,wheels & tires 3,500k, brakes 3,500k,99 spec front nose,and rear spoiler 3k). Thats only 3k more than just the Lingenfelter engine upgrade by itself. Like I said before, value wise, there is no contest! By the way, you do understand simple math dont you?
02-26-03, 07:43 PM
#364
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FDRacer-
While I applaud your efforts to contribute to this thread, it seems the effort is gone now.
Please do not come on here and attempt to spoil MVA's efforts nor my own excitement with regards to this project.
I didn't go through with this project for an investment purpose. I didn't spend thousands of dollars to care what someone thinks about how I spend my hard-earned money. Anyone who attempts to persuade me otherwise on the grounds of their personal opinions can go ahead and jump off the bridge; while saving everyone else the wasted time.
With regards to the RX-7 community, you will find those with large dreams; in which most will never be able to fulfill. For the people who are able to see these dreams come through, please believe that they may know about the potential problems which could occur.
As this project wraps up, I do know where many fault lines lay. It is also unfair to compare a street car to Abels success / failures on the track. The tuning which he is attempting to achieve is far different than what I am. I will not push the car to its ragged edge to make the power. This, combined with conservative timing, rich AF ratios, higher octane (less burn resistance), low duty cycle operations (i.e. 72% @ WOT), and non-extreme boost pressures; all while meeting the cooling requirements to prevent metal from expanding and contracting past the point of operating temperatures.
You will get a very stable result. But it doesn't stop there. The maintenance provided with the car will be remarkable. Regular oil changes, good clean higher octane fuel, close attention to the weather changes and coolant mixtures to compensate, etc etc etc.
There is no reason for this car to fail. If all items line up correctly as expected, and the proper maintenance is completed; can you tell me why this wouldn't be a bullet proof combination?
The most common faults on the rotary engine (with regards to non-stock setups) are:
- Cooling capacity, and overheating
- Preignition causing apex seal breakage
- Actual mechanical problems
Lets look at each one.
Cooling capacity, and overheating:
I believe that anyone who has gone through the conversion process and paid the price for the fun will not neglect one of the most fatal causing problems.
Only a true moron would continue to "stick in it" when a problem occurs. Any conscience driver should check their gauge equipment often. This would include fuel pressure, EGT temperatures, coolant temperature, boost pressure, etc.
In the event that the car runs at a higher temperature than desired, changes must occur. Most commonly, the coolant mixture is the easiest way to compensate. If all efforts fail here, other alternatives such as ducting, misting, water injection, etc can be researched.
Does this make the car unstable? No. Only the driver makes the car unstable, which is directly effected by the condition of its use. I will prep the car differently for a road racing session than a weekend scenic drive... Who wouldn't?
Preignition causing apex seal breakage
I think everyone would agree that the weakest link in the engine is its ability to handle preignition. I also believe that people become blinded in this aspect and label the rotary a bad engine.
ANY ENGINE THAT TAKES PREIGNITION ABUSE IS LIABLE FOR MAJOR PROBLEMS.
Just in the design nature of the rotary that it has a greater opportunity for failure. So, all methods to prevent any preignition should be taken:
- A higher octane gas
- Good ignition spark and clean plugs
- An efficient cooling system, thus preventing "hot spots" which can cause the plugs to ignite
- A conservative timing curve which doesn't put preignition on the edge of WOT runs
- A healthy fuel curve for ALL conditions to maintain a steady AFR under 12.1 : 1.
With all of these items taken into consideration, why would it fail?
Actual mechanical problems
There is only so much which can be done to prevent the actual mechanical issues. If the part was a 100% quality piece while assembly of the engine, along with proper maintenance; then there should be NO PROBLEMS.
But, sometimes a bad batch of bearings have been produced. Or (fill in the blank) part... But this scope is outside of the narrow topic of rotary.
I just ask that you either provide subjective information to debate over, or don't contribute to this thread. I have spent a considerable amount of money on my hobby. I know what I am doing, and I know about the car. Don't knock me down for MY choices. You can inquire, and I will be more than happy to discuss those choices with you; but please don't provide negative "thoughts" to my parade.
Mike
While I applaud your efforts to contribute to this thread, it seems the effort is gone now.
Please do not come on here and attempt to spoil MVA's efforts nor my own excitement with regards to this project.
I didn't go through with this project for an investment purpose. I didn't spend thousands of dollars to care what someone thinks about how I spend my hard-earned money. Anyone who attempts to persuade me otherwise on the grounds of their personal opinions can go ahead and jump off the bridge; while saving everyone else the wasted time.
With regards to the RX-7 community, you will find those with large dreams; in which most will never be able to fulfill. For the people who are able to see these dreams come through, please believe that they may know about the potential problems which could occur.
As this project wraps up, I do know where many fault lines lay. It is also unfair to compare a street car to Abels success / failures on the track. The tuning which he is attempting to achieve is far different than what I am. I will not push the car to its ragged edge to make the power. This, combined with conservative timing, rich AF ratios, higher octane (less burn resistance), low duty cycle operations (i.e. 72% @ WOT), and non-extreme boost pressures; all while meeting the cooling requirements to prevent metal from expanding and contracting past the point of operating temperatures.
You will get a very stable result. But it doesn't stop there. The maintenance provided with the car will be remarkable. Regular oil changes, good clean higher octane fuel, close attention to the weather changes and coolant mixtures to compensate, etc etc etc.
There is no reason for this car to fail. If all items line up correctly as expected, and the proper maintenance is completed; can you tell me why this wouldn't be a bullet proof combination?
The most common faults on the rotary engine (with regards to non-stock setups) are:
- Cooling capacity, and overheating
- Preignition causing apex seal breakage
- Actual mechanical problems
Lets look at each one.
Cooling capacity, and overheating:
I believe that anyone who has gone through the conversion process and paid the price for the fun will not neglect one of the most fatal causing problems.
Only a true moron would continue to "stick in it" when a problem occurs. Any conscience driver should check their gauge equipment often. This would include fuel pressure, EGT temperatures, coolant temperature, boost pressure, etc.
In the event that the car runs at a higher temperature than desired, changes must occur. Most commonly, the coolant mixture is the easiest way to compensate. If all efforts fail here, other alternatives such as ducting, misting, water injection, etc can be researched.
Does this make the car unstable? No. Only the driver makes the car unstable, which is directly effected by the condition of its use. I will prep the car differently for a road racing session than a weekend scenic drive... Who wouldn't?
Preignition causing apex seal breakage
I think everyone would agree that the weakest link in the engine is its ability to handle preignition. I also believe that people become blinded in this aspect and label the rotary a bad engine.
ANY ENGINE THAT TAKES PREIGNITION ABUSE IS LIABLE FOR MAJOR PROBLEMS.
Just in the design nature of the rotary that it has a greater opportunity for failure. So, all methods to prevent any preignition should be taken:
- A higher octane gas
- Good ignition spark and clean plugs
- An efficient cooling system, thus preventing "hot spots" which can cause the plugs to ignite
- A conservative timing curve which doesn't put preignition on the edge of WOT runs
- A healthy fuel curve for ALL conditions to maintain a steady AFR under 12.1 : 1.
With all of these items taken into consideration, why would it fail?
Actual mechanical problems
There is only so much which can be done to prevent the actual mechanical issues. If the part was a 100% quality piece while assembly of the engine, along with proper maintenance; then there should be NO PROBLEMS.
But, sometimes a bad batch of bearings have been produced. Or (fill in the blank) part... But this scope is outside of the narrow topic of rotary.
I just ask that you either provide subjective information to debate over, or don't contribute to this thread. I have spent a considerable amount of money on my hobby. I know what I am doing, and I know about the car. Don't knock me down for MY choices. You can inquire, and I will be more than happy to discuss those choices with you; but please don't provide negative "thoughts" to my parade.
Mike
02-27-03, 07:11 PM
#365
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Sorry guys,, i been very very busy these last couple of days,, i just got back in,,and started reading some of the post here,,,,about the car overheating or not,,about abel blowing 20-30 engine or not,,,,etc,,
1. Abel didn't breack 20-30 engine,,,,(yes he did broke couple of engine,,but just because he was trying to get every single drop of the engine,,unlike a street engine.
2. I use C&R radiators in my 20b projects (c&r is use in Indy car, formula 1, nascar and cars dont overheat.
3. All my engines, come with waterjacks,,,which help the engine stay much cooler.
1. Abel didn't breack 20-30 engine,,,,(yes he did broke couple of engine,,but just because he was trying to get every single drop of the engine,,unlike a street engine.
2. I use C&R radiators in my 20b projects (c&r is use in Indy car, formula 1, nascar and cars dont overheat.
3. All my engines, come with waterjacks,,,which help the engine stay much cooler.
03-03-03, 09:52 PM
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So any news on the release of the billet oil pan and motor mounts? At least drop us a hint of expected prices. I dont even own an RX-7 anymore, but if someone were to produce parts that made a 20B a direct fit without any steering rack modifications needed I'll go out and buy an FD and a 20B motor to go into it... I've always been tempted to do a 20B swap into an FD for years.
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