am3210

Marcos, sorry I missed you at the Winter Nationals let me know if you come back out to the left coast.

94RHDFD

iTrader: (3)

Marcos, any updates on the prices yet?

MVAMotorsport

sorry guys, i was out for the weekend, I had to take care some business in california, Tomorrow i will be back in the my shop, i post some new pics

CCarlisi

videos/sound clips too

Barwick

Is there a "low low low boost" option for everyday driving so people don't kill themselves? Like say 300-350 rwhp setting?

Rx-7Blazin

i dont know if anyone has sayd it but that seems realllllyy high for any engine i can get a full front clip of a cosmo for $3600 whay are you charging so much it really seems pointless to put a 3 rotor in your car if your gonna spend 35000 with that money you could buy a 3rd gen and supe it up to be way faster than a 20b

CCarlisi

I agree it is pricey, but keep in mind several non engine swap related performance upgrades are included in that cost such as a large FMIC.

IMO the advantage of a 20B is not its absolute power when compared to a highly modded 13B, but its broader powerband-ie the total area under the line graph, not just the peak. I think a lot of people overlook the benefit of this when selecting aftermarket turbos ect. RUF porsche places a lot of emphasis on this when tuning. That is why RUF cars preform as good or better than other modded porsches that have more peak hp.

In addition the 20b sounds great, exotic, mean-or at least better than a 13b. That is something you will benefit from regardless of how aggressively you drive it.

My biggest concern about the project is not the price of admission, but that it will probably be very difficult to recap the money invested down the road. The cost of the conversion is more than double the current blue book value of the FD. -keep in mind you also have to add in your purchase cost of the car. When it comes time to sell it used you really have two choices. The first is to wait for a buyer who appreciates what it is-which may take years (see RXXX-7 for sale). The other option is you can take a BIG bath.

At this point in my life, with law grad school loans looming and the usual bs expenses neither of those options are ideal, especially when I can buy a 1 year old e46 M3 beat on it for a couple years, turn around and unload it in short time for less than a 10k loss total.

On the other hand, for someone more established-someone that has the disposable income to spend 110k on a 911 turbo, I think it's a great deal. The loss on both cars will probably be the same, or possible less for the 3-rotor, but to enjoy the porche you have to tie up 110k of your money rather than ~$50k. Personally I think a 20B fd would be more fun to drive

94RHDFD

iTrader: (3)

RX-7BLAZIN, I think that you are over looking what you get for the $30k price tag. You are basically dropping off a stock car and getting a high horsepower 20B car back. Now think about this, if you modd'd your 13b, you would spend the same amount of money less the 20B and a few custom fab pieces, all of the other things you get you would still have to buy to mod your 13b. Call a shop and ask what it will cost to drop of your car stock and get the same things done with the 13b and see how much it will cost, and don't forget labor.

MVAMotorsport

Remember guys,,everything you are getting for that price, This is not a factory 20b, with stock turbo's not at all,, Buying a RUF Porsche for 100-110 when you can have twice the power and go twice as fast,, for halft the money, and still be very very very reliable. But these projects are for those people that know about it, and know what they are getting it, If you feel that the price is too High, ,,,and you preferd to get a RUF Porsche or a BMW Hey go for it, Hey i have a 2002 BMW M3 SMG , is my family car, but not my sport car.

MVAMotorsport

But i respect your idea,, Not everyone is goin to like the price, Not everyone is goin to find it as a good deal, But it is. Where can you buy a street car for 50k or less,, and have 600rwhp -800rwhp in the street, Never . Remember that power that the RUF Makes is to the flywheel not to the wheels.

94RHDFD

iTrader: (3)

That's my point exactly, for the money you can't beat it, HP to money invested nothing else touches it, hands down

Rx-7Blazin

well yea sure i want a 20b and id spend 10g's to put it in wich is about what i could do it for its just 20g's more man thats a hell of alot sure its high preformance but i can put preformance into a stock 20b to and not have to pay sooo much

fdracer

it's stupid to compare a 20b fd w/ a ruf porsche, they're not even in the same league. that's like me saying my 10sec. civic is better than a ferrari, cause the ferrari only runs 12's and is a lot more expensive. the conversion is what it is, it might be too expensive for some, but it's the right price for others. you can't go around comparing it to other cars which have no relation to it though.

CCarlisi

You're misrepresenting what I said. I mentioned RUF to illistrate the importance of a broad powerband (an advantage the 20B has over a 13B imo), and NOT in regard to the value of your conversion. A RUF 996 turbo is around 190k-or 80% more than a stock 996 turbo, obviously not a good value by any standard.

Again, my point is not that the conversion has a low value in terms of performance per dollar, but that it will be very hard TO RESELL when compared to a stock car of EQUAL COST because the cost of modifications far exceeds the cost of the car itself. It's not a very liquid investment.

This problem goes away when you cross shop it with a car that has SIMILAR PERFORMANCE. Comparetively it's actually a better value when compared to a $100,000 car because the loss on resale will be similar on both but you will tie up less money to do an MVA conversion when compared to purchasing an exoitc. I used a STOCK 911 turbo as an example in my previous post because it fast and costs around 100k. As I said in the previous post and am repeating again, I do not think it is a better value.

I would buy a 20b over a 911 turbo handsdown. I would even buy a 20b before buying an M3, but in that case I would be following my heart not my wallet.

CCarlisi

-I didn't compare them, thanks for calling me stupid-next time try reading the post you're responding to.
-but since attention has been drawn to this, why do you think they're not in the same league? I think it would be a good match on a road course.

-it is at the drag strip, but I tend to think the ferrari has a lot more sex appeal, a better interior, sound, feel, and would slaughter it on a road course


Why not? -motortrend compared a twinturbo corvette to an F-18 superhornet. I'm not going to say they were similar in many respects, but it was interesting to see how they measured up.

RX-Heven

iTrader: (1)

fwiw, I friggin hate Porsches and the cocky smircks their owners have. I think a 20b would wipe that right off their face....

fdracer

i'm saying the price comparison is totally pointless. sure you can compare performance, but performance for the price doesn't make any sense. i can compare just about any single turbo fd to a murcielago, 911 turbo, maranello, etc., and the performance/price ratio is heavily favor the single turbo fd. but the fact is those cars are in a class all their own. my timex and a rolex which costs a thousand times more, both tell time exactly the same. even though they're both watches you can't really compare the two. personally i think the $2 burgers at the local burger place tastes better than some of the $40 entree's at le cirque, but it would be pointless to compare the 2. if we're gonna compare anything let's compare a 20b fd, w/ supra w/ $35k in upgrades, or a corvette w/ the lingenfelter twin turbo kit, or a skyline gtr w/ $35k in upgrades, etc.

rx7tt95

Hrmm let's see....

R34 w/more than 650hp usually has an upgraded engine (seen lots of $11K figures for fully built engines) Next, you'll need to upgraded to the Hollinger 6speed sequential or the HKS, both about $15K, because there isn't much else out there that handles the power and the stock box doesn't last long. Not much left for the HKS upgraded twins or other ancilliaries. And then there's the entry fee for an R34, $85K here in the US. And after spending all that, you'll still have a car which dynamically, isn't nearly as good as the FD. But hey, you'll have back seats.

Supra w/$35K upgrades....getting closer, not as good dynamically again and not necessarily as reliable as everyone makes them out to be, just see SCC's Ultimate Street Car Challenge. Monster lag and a heavy package with similar hp figures. Entry fee, $25-30K for a good example that hasn't been ragged on.

Corvette...now this one is a bit tougher. Until you check out that interior. Gold chains anyone? J/K. Honestly, good driving package, still 400lbs. heavier than the FD. FD's, with less hp and tires are keeping up with them on the autocross courses. Side on the FD with it's still superior chassis. On a road course, the Lingenfetler TT is tough to keep up with. No problems in the twisties, but on the straights, they're monsters. Of course it looks like any other Corvette and everyone and their mother seems to be driving Z06's. And they're not bulletproof. I've seen them grenade in person. I've seen stock Z06's with bolt on mods grenade on the racetrack. I can show you an image of one blowing oil down the back straigth at Sebring that I took a few months back. But...like I said, getting closer to a 3 rotor FD. Again, the entry price is pretty steep, around what, $45K for a used 385hp example? $55K brand new?

And then there's the FD. Unique, low volume, prettier than any of the above by quite some margin, better "stock" chassis dynamics, and with some modifications, it can be faster on a road course than the Z06. The entry price "could" be as little as $10K for a really nice example with a blown 2 rotor.

One must understand you're receiving a turnkey car from MVA for that price. They do the dyno tuning and low speed driveablility for you. Everything is fabbed.

Honestly though, I would buy the major components from MVA and do the installation/tuning yourself. Microtech has plenty of single turbo 3rotor maps to use as a really good starting point.

Additionally, I would change a few things...I would slide the engine back as far as possible, similar to what these guys have done http://www.autotechmotorsports.com/projects-20bfd.htm I'm not sure how they achieved it, but it may not be a "true" 20B, but a short e-shaft version using plates from a different engine. I'd slide it back far enough to require the use of an aftermarket transmission (and thus requiring a custom driveshaft and modified PPF). With the MVA treatment, you certainly get the best of engine building and three rotor experience that you can find and with the custom billet intake, Marcos may be able to make it low enough to do a similar slide back. If you look at the small Autotech pictures, the Cusco strut tower bar still fits in the stock location.

Anyway, just throwing it out there. I don't think it's as easy a comparison as that. In the end though, I wouldn't compare an FD to a $2 cheeseburger :-)

fdracer

there's no many things wrong w/ your post i don't even know where to begin. gtr's have much better trannies than fd's, the reason they switch to sequential is cause awd drag launches destroy trannies like they we're toothpicks. subject the fd tranny to the same abuse w/ a high hp 20b, and it'll break too. funny that you mention the tt z06's aren't bullet proof. lingenfelter completely trounced the pfs 3-rotor in the car and driver supercar challenge. the pfs 20b didn't even finish the event and the lingenfelter corvette has won 2 years in a row. if the tt z06 isn't bulletproof then a 20b fd isn't even bb gun proof. it's still subject to all the qualities of a rotary. it's still weaker against detonation, tends to overheat, drinks more fuel, has worse emmissions and has less torque than it's piston counterparts. to me the fact that fd's can be had for $10k is not an advantage as you make it seem, it's a reflection of it's shitty build quality and reliability. it's not these other cars' fault that the fd was so shitty that it's depreciated so much over the years while they've maintained much more resale value. i can't really take the current asking price for fd's in to account, because if i did the only cars i could compare them to would be civics, dodge neons, etc. when they we're all new they were all at least in the same neighborhood. it's still a fairer comparison than w/ a ruf porsche which is in a totally different stratosphere.

it's pointless to compare price when it comes to a 3-rotor fd. this is a mod for die hard rotary guys, that's it. you will never recoup you're investment no matter what. you can't say it's a great deal for the money, because you really don't have an asset in your possesion. a ruf porsche is an asset, you can resell it for pretty damn close to what you bought it for. if build a hypothetical 3-rotor fd to the exact same performance numbers as a ruf 911 turbo, then you try to sell both at the exact same price, the ratio of buyers for the ruf over the fd will be 1000 to 1. a great deal isn't measured in how much you paid for something, it's valued by how much of an asset that you get out of your purchase. in actuallity the ruf porsche is a much better deal. but you can't put a dollar value on how much enjoyment someone gets out of their car, so if a 20b fd is what someone truly loves then its a steal at any price.

94RHDFD

iTrader: (3)

Okay people, let's stay on the subject of the tread. The fact of whether the price of a 20b swap is worth it, IS COMPLETELY UP TO THE PERSON WHO'S DECIDEING TO DO THE SWAP!!!! PERIOD!!!! And how it compares to any other heavily modd'd car depends on what car you favor more, everyone has their own opinion and neither side will argree. Now, back to the topic that was up before we went astray, Marcos how much for the oil pan and motor mounts? And fdracer, NO car is a asset

fdracer

well then i guess i should take my '54 gullwing mercedes to the junkyard, it's probably worthless.

Domestic513

**** the dumb ****. Where ARE SOME VIDEOS AND PICS.

94RHDFD

iTrader: (3)

Hey Marcos, you been quite lately, what's going on with oil pan and motor mounts? Got any more updated pics of Mike's car? I got my motor back and my 98 tranny, all I need now is the prices for your pieces.

kabooski

Marcos

You plan to attend the Gainsville Race (May) to compete
or watch (NHRA Sport Compact)?

I will have my MicroTech (LTX-8)in about 3 weeks or so
It would be great if you could go over it and do some tuning

If your not to busy

Red-Rx7

The snow hit them hard. They haven't had power in their shop this week, and earlier on they couldn't even come in due to the snow.

I know on Friday / Saturday they were not open either due to the power outages.

Mike