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I threw a lot of stuff at you in above posts Ray. I'll try to break it down as simple as possible.
In the LE,yes use Ester oil,because all bits and pieces of system are not new,doing as recommended will remove 95% of mineral oil,there will always be some remnants of mineral oil in system but not a concern as Ester oil will absorb remains of mineral oil,effectively making it inert.
Were you to put Pag oil in system in same scenario,it would seek out remnants of oil and turn it into sticky,gummy,snotty rubber like ***** that will travel and lodge themselves in some unfortunate place in system like expansion valve.-Stay with Ester oil...
Did the Jeep originally come with R12? It was a changeover year for a lot of models in Chrysler lineup,it could have been R12 or R134. If you're saying you need to get R134 conversion fittings for the Jeep then it must have been R12. If this is the case then you need to do exactly as you are with LE as With R12 refrigerant it too would have a mineral oil lubricant in it. You are not going to be able to remove all traces of mineral oil without replacing every component line and hose,just like the LE. You will need to drain original compressor into a graduated container and measure what comes out and record that.
.The new compressor in your kit may come with the correct amount of Pag oil in it already-some kits do,and the compressor will come with a tag stating such. Read instruction manual that comes with kit to determine this. If compressor is shipped empty then put Ester oil in the amount of what you recorded drained from original compressor. Should be @ 3oz. If compressor comes with Pag oil in it,you need to drain it into graduated container working shaft back and forth to expel as much Pag oil as you can and record this amount. Just like as instructed with LE you need to rinse,drain,fill with Ester oil a couple times to expel as much Pag as is possible.
Finally,fill new compressor with same amount of Ester oil as Pag oil you drained out.I would think that your kit would come with a new receiver drier,if kit instructions don't say an amount,put @ 3oz in drier as you get ready to install it. If kit does not come with a drier,source one locally and do same regarding oil. You will need to purge all remaining components not being replaced of mineral oil and R12 with brakleen and compressed air-same as LE. Do the math to figure out what correct charge of R152 is.
The Mazda being the newest will have come with Pag oil originally. I don't know what this kit contains,but same goes for old compressor,drain old oil out to measure what was in it. Check to see if new compressor has Pag oil in it already,if not put in the same as was in old compressor.
Drier@ 3oz of oil,again if kit didn't come with one,source one locally. The driers in ac systems not only dry the ac system with a dessicant,they also act like a filter in system. Just as you would never put a used oil filter on a fresh engine rebuild,you should never leave an old drier in system,they will eventually have the dessicant bag burst sending all that garbage thru the system. Most compressor kits come with driers for this reason.
Unless there was a mechanical failure of compressor-which you will know when you remove it and drain it,there is no need to flush remaining Pag oil from system. If the original compressor did grenade,you should replace the condenser as metal shards that make their way in cannot be flushed out with reasonable certainty. Trying to reuse a condenser in a system that suffered a compresor mechanical failure will only spread the trash around the rest of system. Do the math tofigure the correct R152 fill weight.
Regarding specific duties of cooling/condenser fans...some cars like Honda Civics of 2000-2013 vintage have the radiator and condenser fitted side by side and each has a dedicated fan. The one behind radiator cools the engine,one behind condenser functions when ac is selected. Majority of cars have the condenser mounted in front of radiator and often employ dual fans. Some manufacturers turn on one fan,then the other as required by rising engine temp,some turn on both fans for engine cooling and ac demand. Some manufacturers run both fans thru a PWM(pulse width module) that can control fans at multiple indefinite speeds by ecu depending on cooling needs of engine and ac demand,these are usually high end cars.
You can determine how your car works by letting it run at operating temp,with HVAC system turned off and watch what the cooling fans do when commanded by ecu to turn on to cool engine down.
You can pm me for my #,not sure if you have it and you can call. I'll be happy to talk you down off the roof or guide you through hiccups on the various vehicles...whichever comes 1st,lol.
Thanks Mike, I'm going to play with the dual fans in the Protege5 when I get the system back together, see how they work. It would be cool if one does the rad and one does the AC.
On the LE, yes I'll be keeping the original evaporator and probably condenser too, along with the suction and discharge lines, so ester is the way to go to avoid emulsions with residual mineral oil, as you point out. In fact I'm thinking of trying to go with the original compressor as well, I've got no reason to believe it's bad, just replace the drier and expansion valve,. All these parts are out of the car so I can give them a good cleaning to get the mineral oil out. Still ester is the safer bet here. The charge with computer duster and zooom zooom.
On the Jeep, yep it's an R12 system, but I'm replacing everything new with the exception of the lines, which I haven't found aftermarket. Do you suppose I can safely remove the lines and clean them out really well to get rid of any residual mineral oil? Then PAG shouldn't be a problem.
The AC kits for both the Jeep and the Protege include compressor, condenser, drier, expansion valve, evaporator, seals and PAG100 in the compressor, plus a bottle of PAG40 to lubricate the system (you discard the PAG100 stored in the compressor). So the systems want to be PAG. Still, switching over to ester would be easy so the real question is ester or PAG40 better for refrigeration efficiency and performance?
On the volumes of lubricant for the compressor, condenser, drier and evaporator, I'll be going with the FSM recommendations on these, although I must say, from my initial readings, the FSMs are clear as mud on AC lube volumes.
On the Jeep,understood R12 system. To be honest with you Ray,if this were my Jeep or doing it for a customer,i wouldn't gamble on trying to use Pag. I would clean as good as i can but stay with Ester oil in system. Ester can tolerate mineral oil residuals,Pag will not. The age of the Jeep is an issue from a time standpoint,that lubricant has been in there a long time. If you were replacing every part in system Pag would be the way to go,the other is a gamble,you decide.
I look at jobs like this with intention of doing it once,more so if it's a for pay job. I got stung in a situation very much like this a while back that cost me a lot of money,way more than i made on it initially. Had to buy every piece in system that had to do with conveyance of refrigerant to allow use of Pag oil. I did the job 100%,customer didn't pay any more than the original repair,he was soured on the experience,known him a long time and had done all his work and his relatives. He told me he'd never come back,he didn't and neither did the other members in his family
Regarding refrigerant. oil capacities,always better to err on slightly less lubricant than other way around. Too much oil in system allows that much less of correct amount of refrigerant to be put in and affects system efficiency,also chance of slugging compressor from too much oil. I always take the less is more approach here.
Jeep Wrangler 99-04 -R134 charge weight 32 oz System oil capacity 4.5 oz
R152 charge weight-32 oz x .64 = 20.48 oz Realistic charge weight 21 oz
Mazda Protege Mp5 99-02 R134 charge weight 21oz System oil capacity 8.0 oz I would limit to 7 oz Pag oil total
R152 charge weight-21oz x .64 =13.44 oz Realistic charge weight 14 oz
Last edited by GSLSEforme; 07-14-19 at 11:13 PM.
Reason: added specs
This is why auto AC shops make good money. Just imagine what they would charge you for this. Looks like a great margin if you can run it right. Mike would know better.
No,you won't,post back here after you're done all three...do the Jeep 1st,might run out of bad words,your wife should put a swear jar out there while yer workin on it,she'll be able to get her nails done from proceeds,lol Really appreciate doing the Mazda after that...or maybe not.
One of the few repairs i hate doing,heater cores/evaporators...the two you're doing aren't really all that bad compared to later model Grand Cherokee with V8,or full size Chrysler cars or Dodge truck,Ford Expedition....
It's 90 degrees here with 69%humidity. No way i'd be doing that work unless in my garage with ac on! If 90 here,gotta be mid 90s there,sure it's humid(er) too. That's a job to do in the spring/fall down there.
The information about watching the pressure on the low side (keeping it at 35-40) was very helpful, and as I sit writing this, I'm waiting for the high side to drop from the ~150 down to the recommended 60-80 before I pull off the connection.
I already clicked the "thanks/like/woohoo/there you go" button but I wanted to post here with these positive results and to add to the list of happy R152a users.
FWIW, I have and 83 GSL with the Sanden 575 Model 9165 compressor, drained all of the PAG/Mineral slop that was in there from the 134a conversion, got a new receiver/drier, did all of the o-rings, and put in 3 oz of ester 100 into the compressor and 3 into the receiver. Loaded 2 8 oz cans of Micro Center duster (the Ultra brand). I know you guys use 10 oz cans, and even then only tolerate a bit of loss, but it's blowing pretty cold and the pressures were exactly as described.
This receiver drier which is a wee bit smaller diameter and has no sight glass, but does have both a 1/4" and 3/8" 24 thread switchport so we can use our stock pressure switch.
How does your AC work,how are you measuring outlet temps in dash? Fan on low speed,recirculate mode,thermometer in middle dash vent. The 30 degree outlet air caught my attention,if that were true,compressor runs the risk of being slugged with liquid refrigerant,should recheck that.
Regarding level of charge,need to know lo/hi side pressures,temp at dash vent in above described scenario,ambient temp and humidity. Do you recall lo side reading on gauges when hi side was showing 150?
With that ambient temp and humidity,your ac system won't get tested near as much as those of us further south. I haven't seen 47% humidity here since winter at @ same temps.
Should have been more clear on the pressures, temp, humidity:
Ambient was 82°F/47% (super nice day today!)
Low side pressure was 30 lbs after stabilizing once 2nd can was completely empty.
High side pressure was 150 lbs consistently
Blower low, recirc on.
Outlet temp: ???? I didn't have a small thermometer handy so I didn't measure the vent temperature...it was blowing cold but not ice cold. I'll get a thermometer and measure the middle vent tomorrow. Weather's supposed to be about the same, maybe a bit more humid.
You pretty much listed everything-except low side pressures...30+-degrees(gauge accuracy)ambient temp 47% humidity i would expect @42-45 degree center outlet temps with the above conditions and a proper charge. These temps you might not see til system is settled and has pulled the heat out of the car. You will have to drive car 30-40 mph for couple miles to take fan clutch out of the equation. Did you hear it come in while charging/running with ac on,should have,especially when you momentarily raise idle speed.
It's normal for air outlet temp to climb 3-4 degrees sitting at a red light for several minutes-with a good clutch fan. It's very difficult to find an analog thermometer that's accurate in 30-100 degree range. Best bet is non contact infrared thermometer,can find them pretty cheap.
If it takes 10-15 minutes of driving to get to that temp,your system is functioning as designed especially if car is outside in the sun. All the glass in these cars put a huge solar load on ac system,always have.
If my car has sat out of doors for hours when it’s @90 degrees,the ac doesn’t initially feel “cold”.
I run it full blast with windows down for a few minutes then close them. Area where I live when temps are that high and higher,relative humidity is 68-70+%..
I turn blower down and push recirculate button and in @15 minutes I can often turn blower to lowest speed and thermometer shows 40-42degrees. Depending on how long am driving car it eventually hovers at 40 degrees.
I have a 2.5” analog thermometer made by Blue Point for hvac work that’s very accurate. Had it for years,calibrate it occasionally,never far off if at all.
I prefer it to current digital hvac thermometers.
When car has been in garage,I turn ac on low speed on recirculate and it’s at 40 degrees immediately and maintains that entire time driving car.
R152 is very close in chemical makeup to R12,results using it are a close second to what these cars were capable when new on R12.
Evaporators in these cars are relatively small as is the heater core,considering the size they do ok.
This is an amazing thread guys, I'd be the first one to vote to sticky this one. I plan on restoring my A/C system this winter so I can use it all of next season and will definitely be using this thread as a reference.
07-14-19, 02:40 PM
and that rear tail light
