wankel=awesome

Okay so about a week ago as the temperatures started dropping rapidly here in PA I have noticed something my 1985 GSL has never done.

If the car sits for 6-8 hours in the cold, it doesnt even *try* to start in the morning.

Its a 1985 12a, 74' port factory ignition and a holley carb.

I know it would be easy to condemn the holley carb here, but I do not think it is the problem at all. The engine wont even try to turn over when given a shot of gas from the carb. It will start on ether, but not the direct shots of gas from the carb.


I changed the coils out for Accel Yellow coils (what I had) and it didnt help the issue, and actually seemed to cost me some low end power aswell once it was warmed up. This was my first step since the ignition was non existent when the car was cold. Every crank and it would barely jump to the fender of the car, even if the wire was laying right on top of it.

Both leading AND trailing are suffering from this.

I drove this car with the same carb and everything 2 winters without this issue. Hard starts yes, but I never had to buy a can of ether.

If anyone has any ideas let me know, as Im stumped.

2stroke1971

I have an 85 with a 12a, with the Nikki.

When i first got it, the first start of the day was hell, even if the temps outside were moderate. I found out that my choke flap was not closing all the way...I fixed that and then it starts easily.

Still, now that its cold (Im in Baltimore), it is pretty hard to start even still. I have to pump the accelerator 10 times, pull the choke hard, and it will pop off a little....repeat that about 4 times, and then it stays on. With ether, it will start right up.

I dont know about the Holley, if it had a choke or whatever, but check that first...make sure it closes all the way.

Then, it sounds like your ignition is weak when cold?

Ive got accel super stock coils on mine, and it seemed to help the midrange for me. Ive been thinking about direct fire, but I dont like doing mods for mods sake....if mine ever gives up the ghost, Ill go with some HEI modules and all that....I wonder if that would help yours???

If I can risk a generalization, most early electronic ignitions were barely adequate to begin with. I remember in the 80s, shadetree mechanics would put plugs in their Saabs only to have them not start at all. (Gap was CRITICAL because, well, the ignitions sucked.) Put 40 years of age and use on them and......I had an old Volvo that ran like absolute crap...put a hot coil on it, and it was like magic.

I dunno, Im rambling.......

erick31876

iTrader: (8)

I live in pa also and my car was doing the same thing. I also have a 12a with holley carb (84gs).it turns out that when the temperature dropped, my car wouldn't crank fast enough to start, and would get slower as it cranked.I had a bad battery. I would check there, also check all of your connections

t_g_farrell

iTrader: (1)

Your battery is at least 3 years old, maybe 4. They don't last more than 5 years and in the cold
when they are weak its much worse. Get a new battery before doing any more ignition stuff.

NCross

iTrader: (18)

Flooded? Coolant seal breach?

wankel=awesome

If that were the case, I think I would lose coolant somewhere. Besides that, spark plugs are normal when this happens. They are usually just wet with gas after the long repeated attempts at starting and a few acc. pump shots down the carb.

I replaced the battery tonight with an Optima 35 red top. I will report back if it helped or not, but I am not sure it will work.

It really seems to me that the spark is just incredibly weak when the car is cold, even despite the engine trying to crank and seemingly good starter speeds.

It even failed to start today at 30*. An all time low for this car. It has *never* failed to start just below freezing like that in the decade I have owned it.

wankel=awesome

Same thing this morning. Except it did try to start, then died. It ran for about 15 seconds, then died. Would not restart without ether.

t_g_farrell

iTrader: (1)

Was that battery fully charged? If so then you may be experiencing an issue with
your ignition. They tend to show up as problems in extreme heat or cold conditions
and they deteriorate progressively over time until its a pain in the A$$. First thing
I would check is the ignitor. Maybe try switching lead and trailing and see if it helps.

project7s

iTrader: (5)

How's the cap and rotor? And plug wires?

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

as everyone is alluding to, poor cold starts can be a bunch of things.

1. ignition, seems like there is enough reason to check this. the wires get a resistance check. the cap and rotor get a visual.
2. fuel, you might make sure that the accelerator pump is actually working when its cold. just a thought.

3. compression. this is in two parts, the first is cranking speed. the rotary has more seals than a piston engine, and it has longer strokes (270 degrees vs 180), so while the longer strokes help (intake and exhaust), they also hurt (compression), as there is more time to leak. this makes cranking speed really important to starting. oddly the Rx8 is where this shows up first, but those things needed an upgraded starter to start.

so this means things like the battery, cables, and starter condition are all important, the faster the engine spins the more compression you have. if its an extreme case, the Rx8 starter guts can be transplanted. the Rx8 uses a 2kw motor instead of a 1.4 and its got a different gear. i spent some time looking through the parts catalogs and the Rx8 basically used an FC starter, so the guts swap over.

the second part of this is the actual engine health. i once had an 83 LE, and it ran great, and when it wasn't dead cold it would literally start at the touch of a key. when it was cold though, it took a while to start. at some point i took the engine apart to fix the dowel pin oil leak, and was amazed that there was basically no chrome on the rotor housings. so a pair of good housings and seals later, and it would start cold much better....

Jeff20B

iTrader: (13)

I was gonna mention battery cables. They actually make a big difference. Bigger than you think they would. Get the thickest you can.

Rotaries need a fast starter but not necessarily a high torque starter for exactly the reasons j9fd3s stated.

I'm not sure why your igniton gets so weak when it's cold. It doesn't get cold enough here to test things like that. I don't usually recommend an MSD unless you have a lot of boost or are trying to light exotic fuels, but if you can't solve your problems with a set of healthy coils, plugs and wires, and if the ignitors are good but not good enough, then maybe it's time for an MSD. Of course then you're at the mercy of an MSD box which also might get weird when it's cold.

Another option is to stop using the Holley and swap over to a hogged out Nikki. That's what I would do.

wankel=awesome

Lol build me one that flows as well as this one with a vacuum secondary assembly and full choke and I will haha.

Im not sure I want to condemn the engine either. It has to be ignition related since it won't even light a raw pump shot, I think. It runs too well warmed up for me to think the housings are shot.

wankel=awesome

Another update, after getting home tonight it started right up with a couple of shots of gas.

I think maybe the lean jet I ran this summer coupled with the 50 weight oil in the motor (plus the weakening ignition when cold) are whats making it such a bear to start.

I guess if it only has problems at around 15* then I shouldnt complain too much.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

i was going to say, with EFI we have a priming map, which is similar to the accel pump in a carb, and to set that map, you basically just add fuel until the car starts. and best starting is the most fuel before it floods.

50 weight is heavier than you need to run, unless you are on the race track.

wankel=awesome

It was on the track :P


And I am adding fuel to the engine with the accel pump. It wont light it. It just cranks and wont pop off. Doesnt even try to turn over sometimes. Seems like the colder it is, the harder it is to turn over.

The engine compression is still good. The ignition looks better with the optima red top. The holley carb is full choked (with a clearance in the flap).

But, it wont turn over. I dont get it. When the engine is warm, it turns over on the first crank and never gives me any issues with starting, if theres any heat in the engine at all.

I used to be able to pump the accel pummp 5-6 times without "flooding" the engine out. Now all it takes is 2-3 and it just soaks the plugs and wont pop off.

DriveFast7

iTrader: (1)

What heat range plugs are you running. And after you park the car witha warm engine, pull the plugs to see what color they are. The could just be fouled, worn, or have water/rust in them and may need replacing.

Just for kicks when trying to start it cold, pump the pedal once then spray a small amount of WD-40 in there. That'll both give it something to burn, and increase the compression temporarily.

At 15* I'd put a lighter weight oil in there.

85TIIDEVIL

iTrader: (2)

I used to have hard starts, sometimes no start in low temps. After a new battery and MSD wired to leading, car would start right up everytime and it gets just as cold here in NY.

To even better my situation, a recent rebuild to the motor & she starts up even better. Last night it was 30* here and she started from half a blip of the key.

RXBeetle

Oil viscosity climbs exponentially at the lower temps. If you're talking about straight 50W, it's like glue when it's that cold.
This plot should put it in perspective. Temp is in degrees C, you can see where 20W50 is going...
http://www.kewengineering.co.uk/Auto...comparison.jpg
I was starting down to -10F last year with no choke. 5-6 pumps before cranking and pedal it to keep the accel pump squirting until some heat is built up.
I run 5W30 in the winter, stock ignition, good clean cables and connections and nothing special for a battery.

t_g_farrell

iTrader: (1)

That graph tells me that once the engine is up to temp it doesn't really matter what the rated
viscosity, they are all at or near zero. So why use the 50W anyway? Maybe to help older engines start
easier in warm weather but thats about it.

wankel=awesome

Its for clearances and holding oil pressure when the engine isnt fully warmed up. My engine has about 100k hard miles on it, and it was assembled pretty loosely by pineapple. 15w50 mobil 1 was the recommended oil weight for the engine since the day I bought it.

Either way, it has me baffled. I am going to try to swap my Nikki back on and see if it helps. I really need to build another tricked out nikki, but I sold my last one so im kinda stuck with my Holley for the moment.

DriveFast7

iTrader: (1)

The thicker oils don't thin out as quickly either.

wankel=awesome

So I did a multitude of things to fix the issue, including new cap and rotor, plug wires, oil change to 30 weight, and the new battery. None of that really made a difference.


Then I started thinking about the gas were currently buying for 2.15$/gal, so I sampled some from the carb this morning. Its garbage. The stuff is like water. So I decided to just warm some of it up a little bit and prime the carb with it. Started right up.

Unless you have a very powerful ignition system this stuff is going to be pretty hard to burn. Once its above 35* or so it pops right off.

I tinkered with the carbs low speed bleeds to improve signal, which helped a little bit. Also found that the base jetting I have run for years had to be fattened up a bit for this gas. It also likes to backfire on decel a good bit. I believe its a ton of ethanol in the gas making it this volatile.

Good look FB owners this winter with the crap gas they are selling us. I would recommend the MSD at this point to liven up the spark a bit more on the leading, seeing as my other vehicles with COP ignitions and hotter HEI systems are burning it pretty well.

I have asked around on other forums, and pretty much all of the HEI and carb's guys who daily the winter in the northeast have had trouble for the last few weeks.

wankel=awesome

I finally found a fix to this problem. Its not cheap, but it actually works.


Star Tron Enzyme Fuel Treatment Gas and Diesel Additive

Its available at napa and other parts store chains. Its about 14$ a bottle, but it only takes a couple ounces a tank.

I put it in a fresh tank, let it sit overnight and by morning I have no issues starting.

Every time I pump the pedal, gas goes into the engine, and then it will always pop off.

No more instantly flooding after the 3-4th pump. I can pump the pedal close to 10 times and it still starts on it. 10 30cc pumps before startup and its not flooded.

I hope nobody else has to buy the stuff, but where I live the gas is this bad that it actually needs an additive to remain usable in the extreme cold.

NCross

iTrader: (18)

I have noticed MPG in the rx8 has dropped significantly in the past 7-8 weeks. From 21 MPG to 18.3 MPG. I figured cheap gas was too good to be true.

wankel=awesome

My MPG on the "awesome" holley dropped from around 24 average to a disgusting 17-18 over the last month. And thats only figuring in highway MPG. No cold starts, idle, or any of that.

In other news, a local to me brought me a Nikki carb with a ruptured accel. pump diaphragm. When it was brought to me it was still ice cold, and I quickly unscrewed the retaining bolts to the pump, only to find ice inside the housing.

Ice. Inside the accel pump housing.

Good luck this winter rotorheads! Buy some damn gas anti freeze additives for your tank! Wouldnt want a cracked up carb or worse from water freezing in the carb or fuel lines.

I actually took a picture of what looks like a tiny iceberg in the front side fuel bowl. And thats after I allowed it to warm up in the garage for about 45 minutes.