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Well I think I've read just about every single thread about improving the steering on these cars, but I wanted to ask a few questions before getting started on this. I'd like to improve the steering feel and precision as much as possible on my car. Obviously a rack and pinion conversion makes the most sense, but since I have no fabrication skills and don't want to cut up my FB, I'd like to get the most out of the stock system. Shame no one makes a rack-and-pinion conversion anymore. My understanding is these are VERY difficult to properly execute without destroying the cars handling.
Today I noticed under braking my car was pulling hard to the right. Well, now's a good a time as any to get started on this. My ideas so far, in this order.
1) Change steering box gear oil. I made sure mine was full a week or two ago, but I think it's probably very old oil, and perhaps some "fresher" lubrication will ensure longevity of the box.
2) Replace all steering linkages. When I got home from work I decided to take a look at the linkages. This is the outer tie rod:
Ouch! No wonder the steering was so vague and feels like it has "momentum". The inner tie rods aren't much better, and both sides are completely "ripped" like that. The pitman arm bushing looks worn out, although the idler arm bushing looks like it was replaced at some point. I'm going to switch everything over to Moog items.
3) Judging by the condition of these items, I'm going to replace the tension rod bushings and control arm bushings with polyurethane bushings, or replace with an aftermarket unit all together.
4) Replace wheel bearings
5) Replace stock steering wheel with a smaller steering wheel.
6) Adjust or replace steering box. This is an unlikely step, any movement in the steering wheel moves the car, however it's extremely slow and vague on-center.
Few questions:
1) It looks like Moog used to produce a pitman arm, however it's NLA as far as I can tell. Does anyone know a source to purchase one, or should I just replace the bushing and move on. I found a few places that showed the item on their website, but who knows if it's actually in stock, I'd imagine I'm out of luck for this item.
2) Does anyone have any experience with the T3 control arms and tension rods? They look like nice pieces (albeit pricey), has anyone installed these seen a noticeable improvement in terms of handling and/or steering? I've heard nothing but good things about T3 and they seem to be now making things for our cars, but I don't want to spend the money if I don't get much result.
3) Is there any downside to going to a smaller steering wheel, beyond increased steering effort? Any safety concern? Any risk of it accelerating steering box wear? I was thinking about going with the Momo hub which they make for our cars.
4) Based on the above picture, should I refrain from driving my car? It's probably going to be at least a week or so before I can get the parts, install them and get an alignment, but if it's going to break more things or be a safety hazard, I guess I'll drive my snow car.
I know steering on these cars has been discussed a million times (because I have searched and done some reading), but I'd appreciate some input on this, or answers to my questions. The steering is really the only thing I find lacking on my car, no doubt worn components and probably being out of alignment is contributing, but I don't see why I can't try to make the steering as good as possible. I know the recirculating ball will never be as good as rack-and-pinion and I'm okay with that, but lots of vintage sports cars came with recirculating ball, and I'd like it to be as good as the rest of the car. I asked some of these questions on my other thread, but figured I'd open a new one to see what people are doing and suggesting!
I think you outlined a solid plan. The pitman usually isn't that critical or worn that much since
its in board and out of a lot of the dirty environment. Its probably even coated in oil which is
good. Going poly all around is a great upgrade, really makes the car feel solid. MOOG everything
else is a good choice. All their components are built to last.
Unless you are looking to lower or alter camber I would stick with the stock parts. Otherwise it
looks like T3 is making solid bits for our cars. Personal choice on that.
I do question why folks get smaller steering wheels, it just makes low speed maneuvers that
much harder. In fact a large wheel would actually make more sense, like a Nardi wood one
or something that gives you more leverage.
Based on the above picture that cars been driving like that for a long time. It can probably last
a little longer but YMMV. LOL.
Unless you are looking to lower or alter camber I would stick with the stock parts. Otherwise it
looks like T3 is making solid bits for our cars. Personal choice on that.
I wasn't really planning on lowering the car, but I was thinking about doing a degree or so of negative camber. The car has noticeable positive camber now, so either way there is uneven wear on the tires I guess. I only want the negative camber if it will improve handling on the street, I couldn't care less about "stance" or whatever. Seems nice that most of the 1st gen people are more interested in performance too. From searching, seems this requires camber plates to get even a degree of negative camber.
Originally Posted by t_g_farrell
I do question why folks get smaller steering wheels, it just makes low speed maneuvers that
much harder. In fact a large wheel would actually make more sense, like a Nardi wood one
or something that gives you more leverage.
I'd like to speed up the steering a bit, the steering doesn't seem that heavy at low speeds for me. But again, I don't have much experience with this. If steps 1-4 get the steering where I want it, then I'll probably just leave the stock steering wheel. I prefer having the car looking OEM (interior and exterior), but we'll see.
Originally Posted by t_g_farrell
Based on the above picture that cars been driving like that for a long time. It can probably last
a little longer but YMMV. LOL.
Based on the condition of the bushings I can see why I've found the steering iffy, dunno why I didn't look earlier, I guess I'm new at this. One of the worst things was when I'd stop moving the steering wheel, but I could feel the steering still moving. The steering has been getting worse since I bought the car, I think the bushings were probably done when I bought the car, and my driving the mountains nailed the lid in the coffin. On-center was always iffy, but the car felt good in the corners, so I'm excited to actually get the car steering properly.
Well I ordered all the Moog steering parts, with the exception of the pitman arm, which despite places "having it in stock", they don't actually have it, - no surprise. So I've ordered a new bushing for the pitman arm, and will leave it alone beyond that.
Basically all the bushings are worn out, so I'm thinking I need to replace the ball joints as well. Does anyone else have an opinion on the T3 lower control arms, or an experience with them? Leaning that direction, seems like a nice item and the price difference is not much between them at the OEM item.
What's the consensus regarding the RB front sway bar, might be a nice time to upgrade that as well. Would an upgrade in the front necessitate an upgrade in the rear as well? I know people have expressed varied opinions regarding the rear bar, but didn't know if the front was generally considered a good upgrade.
If it pulls under braking, one of your calipers could be hanging up. It is a good plan what you have so far, but i would also check toa key sure your calipers move and slide freely
I could not find anyone carrying them beyond Atkin's, who had a rebuilt (OEM I presume) pitman arm offered. I ordered the bushing from them, I assume it's better than nothing.
Originally Posted by erick31876
If it pulls under braking, one of your calipers could be hanging up. It is a good plan what you have so far, but i would also check toa key sure your calipers move and slide freely
Thanks, hadn't really considered brakes, but that makes sense, I'll make sure to look when I have the wheels off.
Does anyone know if there is any lubrication required of the Moog parts before installation, or of the pitman arm bushing. I looked in the FSM for the pitman arm bushing, but can't remember if it mentions anything.
The Moog idler arm has a lube zerk fitting for regreasing, and comes from the factory well-greased. No further work is needed than bolting it in place, and it will make a huge difference in tracking. On top of that, it will survive WW3.
Pittman arms have a standard ball joint on them, so must be replaced as a part. You'll need the correct gear puller to get it off, as it seems to be press fit, or alternately corroded by 30+ years of grit to be really stuck on there.
Pittman arms have a standard ball joint on them, so must be replaced as a part. You'll need the correct gear puller to get it off, as it seems to be press fit, or alternately corroded by 30+ years of grit to be really stuck on there.
So, is it replaceable? I mean do I need to just pull the bushing off the arm and put the new one on there or do I need a special tool to do this? I had anticipated just being able to put it on, but I guess I should have done some research first. Is it better to just leave it alone, or buy the rebuilt item if it needs replacing?
I just did the same thing for my race car. Last year at the WS Nationals I put in a rebuilt S/Box. But something when wrong and by the 1st heat race, I have a 1/2 turn of play. It was very bad. So this year. All new stuff!
Things to think about. Tension rod bushing need to move up and down. Poly doesn't like to.
(this is also way poly doesn't work in the rear control arms)
Poly is good for the control arm bushings. As they only need to rotate.
Using the T3 stuff for every day street will become a problem. (Rod ends do not like dirt/water/mud)
The Moog (Ball Joint type) idler will last 10 to 20 times longer then rebuilding. They are great!
Also had the same problem finding a Moog Pitman arm. But I just got one from Centric.
Question: when you say all the bushings are warn out. Do you mean the Ball joint rubber covers?
If so, those are replicable. You don't have to replace the joint it's self.
Source for a lot of this stuff is Maxdatrix. I found the pitman arm on ebay ( bigredautoparts ). I wanted Moog parts. That's why I did ebay instead of Mazda.
Oh, and about the oil change on the box. I wouldn't advise it. Sometimes you run into trouble trying to avoid it. The box doesn't have a drain. so to drain it. you would have to pull it and turn it upside down. stirring up all the crap that's settled at the bottom. I could help, but by how much? Also, some times that crap is what's keeping it together.
Another option for to get negative camber without needing to get adjustable top plates is the
RB adjustable lower control arm and it has a new ball joint in it as well. I used this for my car and
like it alot.
Thanks for all the replies so far! All Moog steering parts are on the way, I'm hoping these will make a significant difference in steering, I can't see how they wouldn't though. I'll have to look into how to install that pitman arm bushing, I thought you could just put it on... So "step #2" should be underway soon.
I've heard mixed things about polyurethane for the tension rod bushings, some people say they're good, some say they're bad, so I dunno here. Gian I had not heard that about rod ends, I assumed they could be used on a normal daily driver without problem.
With regards to the lower control arms, I guess there's really a few options: leave them alone, change upper bushing to polyurethane, change to T3 item, change to RB item. I've seen the RB, but they're easily the most expensive by a lot, although they would eliminate the need for camber plates. With regards to the ball joint, I have no idea if it's worn out or not, I just assumed, since pretty much all the bushings seem to be garbage on this car. It seems like most people have not had much success replacing the ball joint, I would prefer to just replace the whole arm I guess. The T3 unit was appealing for it's price, but maybe it's not a good choice for normal street usage?
I had thought about changing the oil in the steering box, because looks like some of the Datsun 510 owners had luck changing the oil in theirs. I was just planning on getting it out with a syringe, but maybe it's best to just keep it, since it's topped off already. I don't think there's anything wrong with the steering box though, we'll see once I change the other items. Will probably do the adjustment if the other items don't help.
Many people on these forums express the belief that recirculating ball steering systems are garbage, after doing some research this doesn't seem to be the case. Many older sports cars used them, and while rack and pinion is obviously better, I don't think it's fair to just write it off as terrible. They do seem to be clearly inferior with the number of wear points, and the time in which they quickly wear out. Regardless if I can't get all the slop / play out of the steering I will be replacing the steering box with a used / rebuilt / new steering box - the car was cheap to begin with, I don't mind paying some extra money. Rack and pinion would be a nice upgrade, but not a realistic option at this point.
I think an important thing to look into in terms of steering is properly adjusting the box.
There is a link floating around that covers a good DIY to properly re-adjust the steering box to take out some of the FB steering free play that is common.
It won't fix it all together but is a good thing to do.
As for rod ends on a DD, I plan to run the T3 lower control arms on my FB which isn't a DD but still gets driven a lot in the summer. I am wondering if those rubber rod end boots will help with dirt/water making them wear quicker?
I think the T3 rod ends are at least a standard item that can be un-threaded and replaced easily enough. Can't say the same about factory LCA ball joint and bushings......
As for rod ends on a DD, I plan to run the T3 lower control arms on my FB which isn't a DD but still gets driven a lot in the summer. I am wondering if those rubber rod end boots will help with dirt/water making them wear quicker?
I think the T3 rod ends are at least a standard item that can be un-threaded and replaced easily enough. Can't say the same about factory LCA ball joint and bushings......
My car gets driven everyday that it's not snowing or hailing - or now since it feels pretty iffy in terms of safety. The main appeal of the T3 suspension pieces for me is that they should be stronger than stock, I'm looking to improve steering feel and response, they are marginally more expensive than OEM, and T3 actually makes things for our cars which is nice. But if they're unadvised for daily driving, maybe I'll have to find a different solution... I'll have to do some more research once I see how the car feels after replacing the steering linkage.
How much play is there in the steering wheel? ie with car not moving how many degrees can you move wheel with very little effort?
Any of the play described above won't be reduced with new suspension/steering hardware. Only option is adjusting the gearbox to reduce it a bit back to 'normal' FB steering.
How much play is there in the steering wheel? ie with car not moving how many degrees can you move wheel with very little effort?
Any of the play described above won't be reduced with new suspension/steering hardware. Only option is adjusting the gearbox to reduce it a bit back to 'normal' FB steering.
When stationary, I can move the steering wheel probably half an inch before meeting resistance, this is normal according to the FSM, but I'd like it to be as tight as possible without causing excessive wear or poor self-centering. This may be it, but I'll see. Self-centering is poor now, leading me to believe an alignment issue, since the steering box has not been touched AFAIK.
As far as I can tell there is zero play in the steering when driving, any turn in the wheel and the car moves. However the movement on-center is vague, numb and slow. To put it another way, the steering response is non-linear on-center, more movement of the wheel is required to move the car than elsewhere. Once in a turn the steering feels much better. Other issue I've noticed is you can sometimes stop moving the steering wheel and the steering will continue moving a bit, you can feel it.
I have no experience with recirculating ball steering, beyond driving this car and googling about it. I don't know what is normal, and what is not. Apparently brand new there should be no play in the system (or very little), I'll buy a new steering box if these fixes don't get me anywhere. Even with the slop the FB is great to drive, but I'd like it to be as good as possible.
There are two types of manual steering boxes.. the early ones have a needle bearing on the top cover and when you turn the adjuster clockwise it will increase preload between the car and sector shaft in the box. The early ones will always have a little amount of play (from the upper needle bearing) and will require more frequent adjustments (the sector shaft due to its taper on the teeth will be forced into the adjuster causing wear over time)
Later boxes have a tapered roller bearing on top of the sector shaft. The taper bearing preload is set by the center screw locked down by a 14mm nut. Counter clockwise on that adjuster increases preload between the sector shaft and the taper roller bearing. The 4 small holes around (pin wrench) the 14mm nut is what sets the preload between the sector shaft and car. Clockwise with a pin wrench increases preload between the sector shaft and car. All the Mazda FSM show the adjustment procedures for the early box! You will never get the later box adjusted using the FSM procedure.
Originally Posted by tommyeflight89
How much play is there in the steering wheel? ie with car not moving how many degrees can you move wheel with very little effort?
Any of the play described above won't be reduced with new suspension/steering hardware. Only option is adjusting the gearbox to reduce it a bit back to 'normal' FB steering.
I've never heard the issue about the tension rods and poly bushings. I'm not convinced its a
real concern. On the rear lower links, definitely.
The cost of the RB adjustables kind of offsets needing camber plates for other solutions to get
camber. Personal choice I guess.
You should assume the worst for all the rubber parts in the suspension at this age. Dry rot
and wear have pretty much rendered all the rubber pieces brittle and hard by now.
I read threads on front suspension setups for about an hour and a half yesterday, and I think I'm going to try and keep things simple. I'm going to do Energy Suspension polyurethane all around on the front end, along with the front RB sway bar. (Off topic, but I think I'll do polyurethane for the rear endlinks and watts link, and leave the rest alone).
My only question is whether I should replace the lower control arms in order to get the new ball joint, seems kind of like a waste to rip out the new upper bushings to put the polyurethane in, but I'd really like to do polyurethane, maybe I'll just keep the lower control arms that I have. Dunno.
I read threads on front suspension setups for about an hour and a half yesterday, and I think I'm going to try and keep things simple. I'm going to do Energy Suspension polyurethane all around on the front end, along with the front RB sway bar. (Off topic, but I think I'll do polyurethane for the rear endlinks and watts link, and leave the rest alone).
I hope you meant rear sway bar and watts link and leave the rest alone.
My only question is whether I should replace the lower control arms in order to get the new ball joint, seems kind of like a waste to rip out the new upper bushings to put the polyurethane in, but I'd really like to do polyurethane, maybe I'll just keep the lower control arms that I have. Dunno.
You probably have worn ball joints, trust me on this. Not sure what you mean
about upper bushings in relation to the ball joints.
I hope you meant rear sway bar and watts link and leave the rest alone.
Correct, I meant the rear sway bar endlinks and Watt's link and NOT the upper and lower links connecting the rear axle to the chassis.
Originally Posted by t_g_farrell
You probably have worn ball joints, trust me on this. Not sure what you mean
about upper bushings in relation to the ball joints.
I was referring to the Energy Suspension bushing kit for the front lower control arms which contains bushings where the arms connect to chassis. Since I would have to remove the new rubber bushings from new control arms and replace with polyurethane, which seems like kind of a waste, but I'd like to have both (new ball joints and polyurethane bushings).
Okay, so I've got all my steering parts arriving today, including a pitman arm. I looked in the FSM, and the install for all the parts looks pretty simple, but I was wondering if anyone had any tips or tricks for when I get started tomorrow. I figure I'll have to buy some sort of puller tool at the auto-parts store. The only thing I'm really in question about is the pitman arm install, since the sector shaft is splined, does it matter where the pitman arm is in relation to the sector shaft for the install, are there multiple ways to do this, with only one being correct? I assume it needs to be lined up or straight on the sector shaft, but I dunno. Any help would be appreciated!
Pit man arm is keyed in goes on two ways, 180° from each other. Sector shaft is splined and tapered. When you use a pitman arm puller, load it up and smack the side of the arm with a hammer.
Also we need pics or this never happened...
Originally Posted by hcaulfield57
Okay, so I've got all my steering parts arriving today, including a pitman arm. I looked in the FSM, and the install for all the parts looks pretty simple, but I was wondering if anyone had any tips or tricks for when I get started tomorrow. I figure I'll have to buy some sort of puller tool at the auto-parts store. The only thing I'm really in question about is the pitman arm install, since the sector shaft is splined, does it matter where the pitman arm is in relation to the sector shaft for the install, are there multiple ways to do this, with only one being correct? I assume it needs to be lined up or straight on the sector shaft, but I dunno. Any help would be appreciated!
Pit man arm is keyed in goes on two ways, 180° from each other. Sector shaft is splined and tapered. When you use a pitman arm puller, load it up and smack the side of the arm with a hammer.
Also we need pics or this never happened...
So there are only two ways to put it on, the right way and backwards? So hit sideways and not downwards? Pictures will definitely be on the way, hopefully they will be able to help someone (assuming I can do things right ) I'm hoping I'll have pretty fantastic steering after this is through, but we'll see I still have a lot of things left on my list.
Sorry, I've been busy and didn't have time to post and most likely to late.
So, here we go. Rod ends are ok for the street. It's just they need to be looked at very often. Cleaned and lubed about once a month to be on the safe side.
I use them on my Mustang steering DD. After about a month (it had rained) they started to have a low mone when I would turn. I didn't have time, so I put it off for 3 weeks. It got worse. When I did look at the suspension (thought it was the ball joint), I found the rod ends were seized and started turning the bolts out.
As far as the Poly bushings. When you said upper bushings. I now understand. You were talking
about the inner bushing. When the control arms bolt to the cross member..
Now for the Tension rods. The only reason I'm against using them. Is because they do not allow the rod to move up and down. This adds spring tension to the suspension. And I'm all for free movement (as long as it's intended movement)
They do help when braking. Because the help keep the movement, fore and aft, to a minimum. That in turn, helps keeps the toe from changing under hard braking.
02-26-16, 01:36 AM
) I'm hoping I'll have pretty fantastic steering after this is through, but we'll see I still have a lot of things left on my list.