RRTEC

iTrader: (13)

I have been pouring over tons of threads about the 6 port Turbo projects in preperation for my project this winter..I.E. Turboing a 13b 6 port (2nd gen motor).
The more I read, the more I question the method in which a lot of the fellers on the forum are attacking it.

Most are building a 2.5 inch spacer the push the turbo out past the 5th and 6th ports and lower manifold, sounds like a reasonable idea, but my question is WHY?
I was laying in bed wondering why oh why (when I could have been doing other things) and suddenly it hit me.. They are spending $38 each + shipping for the racing beat 13B flanges then welding the pipe in between, then wrestling to bolt it all together with MINIMAL clearance.. Is this all because they are trying to keep the 5th and 6th ports wide open.. Short answer, yes.

So I am thinking about using the T2 manifolds and just port matching the manifold using a 13b 6port gasket as a template. I would just extend the Normal 4 port turbo manifold to share the ports on the template, I have taken into consideration the inevitable turbulance that would be caused by the perverbial "brick wall" the intake air would incounter on it's way into the block, but due to the fact I would be running BOOST and the advantage of the higher compression rotors the power loss would be minimal, worst case.

Has anyone else done this? If so any results? Such as blown motors, boost creep, spontainious combustion. Am I on to something or am I CRAZY??? Will this be worthwhile?

Thanks for the help.. Plus a picture of the project.

toxic_d

Have you check the second gen forum? There have been quite a few writeups lately regaurding using the TII intake to solve the clearance issues... I think I'm just going to build a custome turbo header all together to avoid the clearance issues. Besides it would look nicer and more than likely flow better too.

Toxic_d

trochoid

iTrader: (6)

Some of the 2nd gen NA guys have done this. It is rumored there is about a 20 hp penalty by not using the TII housings. If you can find a set of decent TII housings, problem solved and no port matching.

Tofuball

I think somone has done this before.

I've seen a picture of a TII manifold ported to match a 6 port engine.

C. Ludwig

iTrader: (27)

Have you put a TII lower on a 6-port block? It's not even close to matching. The TII intake matches the lower secondary port rather well but the aux port of the 6-port iron is a good 1/2" taller than the highest point of the TII manifold. There isn't enough aluminum there to even try to port match it. If you aren't an accomplished welder with a machine table that can deck the mating surface correctly when your're done welding the lower up to match you'll spend WAY more than the $38 the spacer will cost you. If you want to do it properly that is. I'm just about finished up with a -SE turbo conversion for a customer. I spent ALOT of time studying the situation before committing to anything. I looked long and hard at using the TII intake. It has the other benefit of locating the throttle body on the correct side of the engine bay for intake plumbing. But the work to properly match the intake to the 6-port block was deemed prohibitive.

On the first gen the problem is further complicated by the fact that you just can't simply space the exhaust manifold out to clear the intake and be done with it. There isn't enough room to clear the intake and the frame rail. We used an S5 intake on the project in order to easily locate a 2nd set of injectors versus using the stock -SE intake. The throttle body is also alot bigger and it will just generally flow better. To make everything fit I had to cut all the ACV walls off the S5 lower as well as the 6-port actuating mounts. I then welded up the holes that were left from the 6-port actuators. This plus a much thinner spacer allows everything to fit nicely. A final dip in the media blaster makes it look like the factory built it that way. Here are some pics. You can email me at ludwigmotorsports@insightbb.com if you have specific questions.

FB II

yea read up in the second gen section. one of the largest threads going on about this setup (fc tho) is a close friend of mine. he used TII manifolds that were port matched. car ran beautifully, very powerful. blew it because of a busted maf tho. BOOOOO. that's where haltech comes in. he's doing the same thing again.

RRTEC

iTrader: (13)

AH HA! Thx FB II, I found it...

https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...t=port+matched


Seemed to match up fine... SWEET! SO This should work...

C. Ludwig

iTrader: (27)

I'd love to see actual pics of the porting these guys are doing. The only one I've heard of doing it right is Kahren. IMO there is no way to make it work correctly without doing some serious welding. Here are two pics of an S4 TII lower layed out with a 6-port intake gasket. Notice the casting relief that cuts right through the middle of where you'll need to cut the new port. That should be filled. The big problem you'll notice in the second pic. The blue line that runs through the middle of where you'll need to open up the new port is the outside edge of the TII casting. Again, IMO, there is not enough metal present to do the job correctly without significant welding and then decking the mating surface on a mill to ensure that it is true and leak free.

renns

I cleaned and filled those depressions with metal-filled epoxy. Then the pattern as shown was bored straight through perpendicular to the mounting face. A bit of work with the die grinder, and the port is nicely blended on the manifold side. To fix the horrid transition that would result from bolting the manifold flat up against the 6-port block, I made up an adapter plate. The plate is port-matched to the manifold on one side, and the 6-port irons on the other. The bridge that remained was well rounded to hopefully improve the transition.

The sleeves were modified slightly by removing the pin, and blending the sharp shoulders by the pin boss. Small divots were drilled into the aux port hole in the iron, and the sleeves were then staked with a punch to hold them in the fixed open position.

I've run this intake setup in n/a mode this summer, and it performs well compared to the old n/a manifold. There is a small loss torque at lower rpms due to the aux ports being open permanently. I'm hoping the installation of the S5 turbo will compensate.

C. Ludwig

iTrader: (27)

Very nice work!

I think maybe you've illustrated my point that this much more involved than cleaning up the port with a die grinder and slapping the manifold on the side of the engine.

renns

I've seen a number of reports of people bolting a modified TII LIM block directly, but there's undoubtedly a significant penalty for doing it that way. I'm hoping my setup improves that a bit. BTW, I did need to use an extra exhaust flange as a spacer for the turbo, as that 3/8" adapter plate on the intake pushes it out far enough that it would foul on the compressor housing.

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

Well...You could simply just make a custom exhaust manifold instead of messing with spacers and intake manifold modifications. I originally used a spacer because it was just quick and easy since I had the stock turbo and manifold. But with relativly little effort, you can create a manifold out of some pipe bends and a spare exhaust flange. You can then place the turbo anywhere you want, moving it both up and forward to avoid clearance issues.

The spacer does work just fine, but it is a hack, and a fairly ugly one at that. I'm still using mine since I just built a new engine and want to break it in on the stock turbo (instead of having to make all new intercooler pipe and exhaust) but as soon as it's broken in a custom manifold will be made (also a GT35R won't fit on the stock TII manifold....).

RRTEC

iTrader: (13)

I really like the finished look of the s4 tII manifolds, I worked around a machine shop for Almost 3 years, I should be able to make it look decent and function well.

RRTEC

iTrader: (13)

He went the extra mile by making an adapter plate to truely "port match" the manifold, WHICH I am sure has payed off. The finished product will look great. I agree that chewing up the manifold with a die-grinder is not the end of the fabrication needed to make the manifold fit well, BUT...... I feel like the fab work/time and money you put into the setup for Tsix's car does not out weight the option of using the STOCK T2 manifold with some modification.

He claims $1200 in labor, and he is going to end up with a "Home Grown" Turbo setup. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but the time you took modifying the manifold and Exhaust spacer the work could have gone into the "factory looking" manifold from the engine bay's perspective. NOT to mention the fact that the intercooler piping is coming out on the "wrong side" and is OVERLAPPING the other interooler pipe as well as the Turbo/manifold.. this will create a heatsoak issue.. Probably negating the gaine you will get from the smoother transition in the intake... Something to think about... Maybe sell the setup you are putting on his car, use the t2 stuff and make his car look a little more professional.. I know you will probably take offense to all this, but SO many people did the EXACT same thing you did after looking at Arron CAke's setup, thinking that this was the EASY/ONLY way to Turbo an N/A car.. Because for so long that was the way everyone did it. I feel that the way that the gentleman who posted his pictures after yours seem the most professional/logical way to make the setup function and look good.

Again no offense to anyone as I have learned so much from looking at Arron's setup, and almost went that route, yours setup will work well.. as arron proved. All that matters though is that your customer is happy, if he feel good writing a check for the finished product then everyone goes home happy.

I started this thread to open the doors to those out there like me who are trying thier best to build a bugdet 6 port Turbo.. I am sure your client will be VERY happy with the results as he seems to be smiling from ear to ear in his updates. Cheers!

C. Ludwig

iTrader: (27)

Your thread, here, began as something to the effect that you had discovered that the TII intake would bolt up to a 6-port block "and just port matching the manifold using a 13b 6port gasket as a template". I have some experience in this area and I brought it to your attention that to do it properly would require much more than "port matching". Never said what I was doing was the only way. Just said that there was a lot more to making a TII manifold work on a 6-port engine than you were leading yourself to believe.

As far as you giving advice on the project that I've posted pictures of, please save your time. You might not mean to offend but suggesting someone isn't spending their money wisely could be taken that way. The labor cost includes the installation and tuning of a Haltech E6X among other things. The owner has full intentions of upgrading to a built 4-port engine with larger turbo system at some point. The install of the Haltech and your "wrong side" IC neatly fall into line when you look at the whole picture. Oh that's right...you had no idea of what the whole picture was before you opened your mouth. For a couple hundred dollars in parts and labor this customer has turboed his 6-port engine and will have something spirited to play with while we put together his primary object of desire. At that point it would look something more like this.



Our shop has a couple of these running around and our rotary powered cars recently won an SCCA divisional road racing title. We know a thing or two. Not everything but we're not "home grown" either. I was simply trying to offer advice on a subject you didn't have a full grasp of. If you choose to ignore it that's completely fine with me. Just don't **** on my work in the process.

RRTEC

iTrader: (13)

Crap, I did it again, Accidentally Pissed someone off on the internet........ The only reason I commented on your setup was because you posted that it was a LOT of fab work to make the 4 port manifold line up, a statement like that from a seasoned builder would discourage people who may not have the MONEY to pay someone to build a set-up from exploring those other routes. I feel that my comments were worth saying.. OTHER then the one about taking the setup out, that was WRONG, I AM sorry for the comment about removing the setup you did, that was wrong. I got carried away.

BTW that setup you just posted looks sweet! Sorry that I offended you I am just trying to get as much info out there as possible.. Sorry and Keep up the good work. BTW what shop do you work for in KY? I didn't know there was one in KY..

Deepest Appologies

Tsi_Xtreme

Yeah, C.Ludwig and I discussed the possibilities and this setup is just to hold me over a season of racing until I get a tII block. I want to remove and build the engine myself so I'll know how if I need to do it again in the future. I have people that are going to teach me when I get home so this setup that Ludwig is building is to just hold me over until the build is completed. Afterwards i'll slap his name on it and more than likely sell it on ebay as a kit. Most of the work he has done is more for the TII build. So the labor cost isn't bad and I didn't mind paying. I feel like I'm the cause of this whole debate and I'm sorry for both of you guys! LOL! I've been pleased with everything Ludwig has done so far! And I can't wait for him to help me in the future!

RRTEC

iTrader: (13)

^ As long as you are happy that is what counts, Ludwig has done his job well then. The most important thing is that you are pleased with the end result! Having a PROPERLY tuned Haltec Ek6 is a rare thing and you are lucky to have found someone who can make it function well!

C. Ludwig

iTrader: (27)

It's all good then. The internet is a poor place to have these discussions sometimes as the inflection just doesn't come across. Both ways have their advantages and disadvantages and there is always 21 ways to skin a cat.

I'm the pretty much one-man-Ludwig Motorsports-band and I'm located in Floyds *****, IN which is just across the river from Louisville, KY. Hopefully you'll hear more from us in the coming months and years as we're gearing up for a retail line that will include some interesting items produced right here.

RRTEC

iTrader: (13)

Well to update I just got my hands on two sets of T2 manifolds, I will play with these to get the porting PERFECT!