Wolf 3D big note on staging, little on on sequencing
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,259
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From: long island
big note on staging, little on on sequencing
i know a lot of people have used my old maps as a starting point.
however i found an error in the original configuration that was on it (not sure if it was from the hand controller module, or from the friend who originally helped me set it up).
since the staged injection skip was set to 0, the staged injectors were firing twice. Because of this I had to bring in the staging very slowly.
Moving forward, I am going to test a different staging approach in the coming days (with the skip properly set to 1).
I want to bring in the secondaries as fast as possible so the only interpolation being done is on the fuel map, and not the fuel map and staging.
I am going to test the following settings and report back.
25% at 43
50% at 50
75% at 57
100% at 64
This way around 8-9 psi the secondaries will be firing for the same duration as the primaries. the values in the fuel map from that point will raise in a uniform fashion that should making tuning for 10psi and up smoother and more even.
It SHOULD also prevent the primary injectors from reaching 100% duty cycle at higher revs when coming into boost. 100% duty cycle at 8500 rpms is 7ms. at 6000rpm you have 10ms and at 3000rpm you have 20ms per rotation.
on some of my maps i had 11ms across the board. granted this was in spots that would most likely never be reached, but I would rather prevent that.
Tomorrow on my drive to work I will try this new staging out. I will not be able to FULLY test it yet as this motor only has 300 miles on it, but I will test the transition into boost and possibly up to around 6psi briefly.
follow up post coming soon
however i found an error in the original configuration that was on it (not sure if it was from the hand controller module, or from the friend who originally helped me set it up).
since the staged injection skip was set to 0, the staged injectors were firing twice. Because of this I had to bring in the staging very slowly.
Moving forward, I am going to test a different staging approach in the coming days (with the skip properly set to 1).
I want to bring in the secondaries as fast as possible so the only interpolation being done is on the fuel map, and not the fuel map and staging.
I am going to test the following settings and report back.
25% at 43
50% at 50
75% at 57
100% at 64
This way around 8-9 psi the secondaries will be firing for the same duration as the primaries. the values in the fuel map from that point will raise in a uniform fashion that should making tuning for 10psi and up smoother and more even.
It SHOULD also prevent the primary injectors from reaching 100% duty cycle at higher revs when coming into boost. 100% duty cycle at 8500 rpms is 7ms. at 6000rpm you have 10ms and at 3000rpm you have 20ms per rotation.
on some of my maps i had 11ms across the board. granted this was in spots that would most likely never be reached, but I would rather prevent that.
Tomorrow on my drive to work I will try this new staging out. I will not be able to FULLY test it yet as this motor only has 300 miles on it, but I will test the transition into boost and possibly up to around 6psi briefly.
follow up post coming soon
Rotary Enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 778
Likes: 0
From: North Queensland Australia
It's funny that you mention this over the weekend I just reorganised my map (staging)to keep below 7.5ms. My motor seems to run ok beside the ignition problem I have becasue my DFI require 28 amps to run at full power. The sequencing is a bit of concern let us know how it works out, we all need to know. Many of us used your map to start off including myself.
Michael Smith
Michael Smith
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,259
Likes: 4
From: long island
ok so it didnt work out quite like i wanted in the original post.
currently im testing with
33% at 36
67% at 43
100% at 50
the problem with bringing it in this fast is that as the staging comes in more, you get rich spots before the fuel leans out enough in the next load band.... I'm working to see how smooth i can get it next time i drive. i might try to do
25 at 36
50 at 43
75 at 50
100 at 57
heres a screenshot showing what im talking about. rpm is blue. you can see in the middle of the graph when i step on it in second, as it goes up to about 5psi it goes richer and leaner a couple of times as the staging comes into play.
Bringing in the secondary injectors sooner looks promising. its still quite smooth and im keeping injector pulse widths down.
currently im testing with
33% at 36
67% at 43
100% at 50
the problem with bringing it in this fast is that as the staging comes in more, you get rich spots before the fuel leans out enough in the next load band.... I'm working to see how smooth i can get it next time i drive. i might try to do
25 at 36
50 at 43
75 at 50
100 at 57
heres a screenshot showing what im talking about. rpm is blue. you can see in the middle of the graph when i step on it in second, as it goes up to about 5psi it goes richer and leaner a couple of times as the staging comes into play.
Bringing in the secondary injectors sooner looks promising. its still quite smooth and im keeping injector pulse widths down.
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,259
Likes: 4
From: long island
success!!!!
33% at 36
50% at 43
75% at 50
100% at 57
boost transition is nice and smooth, highest pulsewidth during transition 5.75
http://countercultured.net/maps/r06-06-05.wmf
the 2 pulls here were done goin to 7 psi or so
33% at 36
50% at 43
75% at 50
100% at 57
boost transition is nice and smooth, highest pulsewidth during transition 5.75
http://countercultured.net/maps/r06-06-05.wmf
the 2 pulls here were done goin to 7 psi or so
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,259
Likes: 4
From: long island
Originally Posted by turborotor
So the skip for the staged injectors should be 1?
Trending Topics
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 4,232
Likes: 0
From: Rotaryland, New Hampshire
Took me a bit to get setup, however once i plugged in your staging numbers, WOW was i running rich lol... touch the throtal instant 9.5'ish afr lamo
The one reason for my post is, how are you staging them by rpm? is it 100% all the way across. i started with one of your maps originaly so im assuming thats how your doing it, but i just wanted to ask
-Jacob
The one reason for my post is, how are you staging them by rpm? is it 100% all the way across. i started with one of your maps originaly so im assuming thats how your doing it, but i just wanted to ask
-Jacob
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,259
Likes: 4
From: long island
100% all the way across by rpm. my throttle pump is a bit high =] i need to adjust that... also that was just a prelim map to get it running.. i have it tuned rich now up to 12 psi.. ill post the map soon
Full Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 98
Likes: 0
From: Sacramento,CA
nyt hit the nail on the head!!
Hi guys,
I have been following this thread and had time to go through
all my past maps. All the cars running stock injectors but more
boost have the secondary offset set at 0. This will allow for
more fueling. The only problem is that if you run bigger injectors
you can loose control of them very quickly.
Setting the offset to 1 will trigger the secondaries every other
pulse instead of every pulse if offset is 0. Keep in mind that it
is still batch fire and both injectors still fire. One rotor will not run
lean.
I have used this in the past to "double fire" the secondaries.
This way I didn't need bigger ones. Of course you do not want
to overrun your injectors, so I would use the formula---
60000 divided by your max horsepower rpm.
if your max horsepower is at 6800 rpm then
60000 divided 6800 = 8.82 ms at 100% duty cycle
8.82ms multiplied by 80% is 7.05ms
this is your max secondary ms.
If your primaries are running 7ms they are really at 40%
and very cool. This is because they are sequential.
If the offset of 1 is entered this helps make the secondary
injectors a sort of "semi sequential" setup.
So, the way the software works is this--
The primary injector fires at what ever your trigger 1
offset is. If your offset is 60 degrees that is when the
injector fires. Take it one rotor at a time.
If your secondary injectors were set up 100% rpm and
load it would mean that for every firing of the primary the
secondary would fire also at the same duration ms (offset 0).
Secondaries would fire every other primary firing event (offset 1)
The 13B has 2 power pulses per revolution- so one combustion
chamber is always being rotated in and out of the game plan.
This means that even if your offset is set to 1 the fuel charge
is being alternated between rotor 1 and 2. Sometimes there is
a charge being floated in space and other times it is being
pulled in with the primary pulse.
I hope this makes sense to everybody.
Thanks, Chris
I have been following this thread and had time to go through
all my past maps. All the cars running stock injectors but more
boost have the secondary offset set at 0. This will allow for
more fueling. The only problem is that if you run bigger injectors
you can loose control of them very quickly.
Setting the offset to 1 will trigger the secondaries every other
pulse instead of every pulse if offset is 0. Keep in mind that it
is still batch fire and both injectors still fire. One rotor will not run
lean.
I have used this in the past to "double fire" the secondaries.
This way I didn't need bigger ones. Of course you do not want
to overrun your injectors, so I would use the formula---
60000 divided by your max horsepower rpm.
if your max horsepower is at 6800 rpm then
60000 divided 6800 = 8.82 ms at 100% duty cycle
8.82ms multiplied by 80% is 7.05ms
this is your max secondary ms.
If your primaries are running 7ms they are really at 40%
and very cool. This is because they are sequential.
If the offset of 1 is entered this helps make the secondary
injectors a sort of "semi sequential" setup.
So, the way the software works is this--
The primary injector fires at what ever your trigger 1
offset is. If your offset is 60 degrees that is when the
injector fires. Take it one rotor at a time.
If your secondary injectors were set up 100% rpm and
load it would mean that for every firing of the primary the
secondary would fire also at the same duration ms (offset 0).
Secondaries would fire every other primary firing event (offset 1)
The 13B has 2 power pulses per revolution- so one combustion
chamber is always being rotated in and out of the game plan.
This means that even if your offset is set to 1 the fuel charge
is being alternated between rotor 1 and 2. Sometimes there is
a charge being floated in space and other times it is being
pulled in with the primary pulse.
I hope this makes sense to everybody.
Thanks, Chris
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,259
Likes: 4
From: long island
Originally Posted by RLC
Hi guys,
I have been following this thread and had time to go through
all my past maps. All the cars running stock injectors but more
boost have the secondary offset set at 0. This will allow for
more fueling. The only problem is that if you run bigger injectors
you can loose control of them very quickly.
Setting the offset to 1 will trigger the secondaries every other
pulse instead of every pulse if offset is 0. Keep in mind that it
is still batch fire and both injectors still fire. One rotor will not run
lean.
I have used this in the past to "double fire" the secondaries.
This way I didn't need bigger ones. Of course you do not want
to overrun your injectors, so I would use the formula---
I have been following this thread and had time to go through
all my past maps. All the cars running stock injectors but more
boost have the secondary offset set at 0. This will allow for
more fueling. The only problem is that if you run bigger injectors
you can loose control of them very quickly.
Setting the offset to 1 will trigger the secondaries every other
pulse instead of every pulse if offset is 0. Keep in mind that it
is still batch fire and both injectors still fire. One rotor will not run
lean.
I have used this in the past to "double fire" the secondaries.
This way I didn't need bigger ones. Of course you do not want
to overrun your injectors, so I would use the formula---
say youre at 8500 rpm. each rpm takes 7.06ms to complete. we'll say 7 for simplicity's sake.
if youre double firing them, youre maxing them out as soon as it hits 3.5ms, since halfway through this revolution, its firing them again with the opposing rotors injector.
this may make it seem like you have more secondary fueling then you do since it will bring in the secondaries twice as fast, but when you max the injectors at half of where theyre supposed to, youre done. no more fuel from the secondaries.
Originally Posted by RLC
60000 divided by your max horsepower rpm.
if your max horsepower is at 6800 rpm then
60000 divided 6800 = 8.82 ms at 100% duty cycle
8.82ms multiplied by 80% is 7.05ms
this is your max secondary ms.
If your primaries are running 7ms they are really at 40%
and very cool. This is because they are sequential.
if your max horsepower is at 6800 rpm then
60000 divided 6800 = 8.82 ms at 100% duty cycle
8.82ms multiplied by 80% is 7.05ms
this is your max secondary ms.
If your primaries are running 7ms they are really at 40%
and very cool. This is because they are sequential.
ie: at 8000 rpm, 7.5 miliseconds.
if they were firing at 7ms, youd be nearly maxing out the injectors
Originally Posted by RLC
If the offset of 1 is entered this helps make the secondary
injectors a sort of "semi sequential" setup.
So, the way the software works is this--
The primary injector fires at what ever your trigger 1
offset is. If your offset is 60 degrees that is when the
injector fires. Take it one rotor at a time.
If your secondary injectors were set up 100% rpm and
load it would mean that for every firing of the primary the
secondary would fire also at the same duration ms (offset 0).
Secondaries would fire every other primary firing event (offset 1)
injectors a sort of "semi sequential" setup.
So, the way the software works is this--
The primary injector fires at what ever your trigger 1
offset is. If your offset is 60 degrees that is when the
injector fires. Take it one rotor at a time.
If your secondary injectors were set up 100% rpm and
load it would mean that for every firing of the primary the
secondary would fire also at the same duration ms (offset 0).
Secondaries would fire every other primary firing event (offset 1)
trying to fire them at both primary 1 and primary 2 will interrupt the pulse halway through with a new pulse when you exceed half of the maximum duty cycle.
this will make tuning difficult, because at first you will be getting twice the amount of fuel, then when you hit the point where the pulse width is longer then the half cycle you give it, you will really be at 100% duty cycle and not know it.
Last edited by nyt; Jun 21, 2005 at 11:49 AM.
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,259
Likes: 4
From: long island
Originally Posted by Michael Smith
nyt ,
the solution would be just set the staging maximum to 50% and fire them every event this will keep a more even mixture over both rotors.
Regards
Michael Smith
the solution would be just set the staging maximum to 50% and fire them every event this will keep a more even mixture over both rotors.
Regards
Michael Smith
Full Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 98
Likes: 0
From: Sacramento,CA
staging revisted
Originally Posted by nyt
youre confusing offset and skip. this will not allow MORE fueling. you can double fire the secondaries, but alas, the maximum pulse width does not change. you will gain nothing by doing this. using your math below, at 6800 rpm, a revolution takes 6.82ms. firing longer than this simply takes you into the next revolution. theres no benefit to double firing your staged injectors.
I did mean to say skip. Firing the secondaries twice per revolution will double
the fueling (skip set at 0) because they fire twice per revelution. It doesn't matter
what the ms duration is. If you fire an injector for 2.00 ms twice per revolution that
is 4.00ms per revolution. Granted you don't want to over run your injectors.
If your primaries are at max ms you should keep the staging below 50%.
I realized today I needed to come back and clarify. Nyt is correct in saying
that if you can't run over 50% you are not really able to add more fuel.
The problem with the skip being at 0 is that with big injectors you will
have a mid range that is hard to tune.
say youre at 8500 rpm. each rpm takes 7.06ms to complete. we'll say 7 for simplicity's sake.
if youre double firing them, youre maxing them out as soon as it hits 3.5ms, since halfway through this revolution, its firing them again with the opposing rotors injector.
this may make it seem like you have more secondary fueling then you do since it will bring in the secondaries twice as fast, but when you max the injectors at half of where theyre supposed to, youre done. no more fuel from the secondaries.
Very True
you seem confused. They are not running at 40%. you understand that skip is every half an rpm of the engine correct? this is not a piston engine. setting skip to ONE sets the injectors possible max phase length to the time it takes for ONE REVOLUTION.
Yes I do understand skip. I was very tired when I wrote what I did,
sorry about that.
ie: at 8000 rpm, 7.5 miliseconds.
if they were firing at 7ms, youd be nearly maxing out the injectors
again youre using the term offset when you should be using skip(first paragraph here). the secondaries should have their skip set to 1 so that they have a full phase to fire without double firing. they are higher up on the runners for this reason.
I used the term offset here to let every body know when the primaries fired.
The injector pulse is at whatever your trigger input 1 offset is. This way if
you know exactly when the intake port opens you can fire the injector just
before that- for optimal fuel atomazation without droplets forming on your
runner walls (quenching)
trying to fire them at both primary 1 and primary 2 will interrupt the pulse halway through with a new pulse when you exceed half of the maximum duty cycle.
this will make tuning difficult, because at first you will be getting twice the amount of fuel, then when you hit the point where the pulse width is longer then the half cycle you give it, you will really be at 100% duty cycle and not know it.
I did mean to say skip. Firing the secondaries twice per revolution will double
the fueling (skip set at 0) because they fire twice per revelution. It doesn't matter
what the ms duration is. If you fire an injector for 2.00 ms twice per revolution that
is 4.00ms per revolution. Granted you don't want to over run your injectors.
If your primaries are at max ms you should keep the staging below 50%.
I realized today I needed to come back and clarify. Nyt is correct in saying
that if you can't run over 50% you are not really able to add more fuel.
The problem with the skip being at 0 is that with big injectors you will
have a mid range that is hard to tune.
say youre at 8500 rpm. each rpm takes 7.06ms to complete. we'll say 7 for simplicity's sake.
if youre double firing them, youre maxing them out as soon as it hits 3.5ms, since halfway through this revolution, its firing them again with the opposing rotors injector.
this may make it seem like you have more secondary fueling then you do since it will bring in the secondaries twice as fast, but when you max the injectors at half of where theyre supposed to, youre done. no more fuel from the secondaries.
Very True
you seem confused. They are not running at 40%. you understand that skip is every half an rpm of the engine correct? this is not a piston engine. setting skip to ONE sets the injectors possible max phase length to the time it takes for ONE REVOLUTION.
Yes I do understand skip. I was very tired when I wrote what I did,
sorry about that.
ie: at 8000 rpm, 7.5 miliseconds.
if they were firing at 7ms, youd be nearly maxing out the injectors
again youre using the term offset when you should be using skip(first paragraph here). the secondaries should have their skip set to 1 so that they have a full phase to fire without double firing. they are higher up on the runners for this reason.
I used the term offset here to let every body know when the primaries fired.
The injector pulse is at whatever your trigger input 1 offset is. This way if
you know exactly when the intake port opens you can fire the injector just
before that- for optimal fuel atomazation without droplets forming on your
runner walls (quenching)
trying to fire them at both primary 1 and primary 2 will interrupt the pulse halway through with a new pulse when you exceed half of the maximum duty cycle.
this will make tuning difficult, because at first you will be getting twice the amount of fuel, then when you hit the point where the pulse width is longer then the half cycle you give it, you will really be at 100% duty cycle and not know it.
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,259
Likes: 4
From: long island
Originally Posted by RLC
Well Put nyt
oh also if you're interested, i'd like to put together a kind of wolf repository website.. i can provide all the hosting and such. I'd like to have it full of all the wolf tech articles, howtos, and bunches of maps. as of now im just posting everything in the forums. it would be nice to have a home for it all. let me know what you think...
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