Dyre

Oh god just make it stop....
Now please....

ronarndt

If you have convinced yourself that you are going to make the engine swap, check out Jim Labrec's progress on a V8 into FD injection. He has addressed all the variables and has spent big $ to get the job mostly done. I was nearly ready to buy a Banzai from Pettit, mainly for the max horsepower advantage, but he convinced me against it. Now, at least when I drive the Chevy, I don't get the usual studid questions, like "Is that a Miata?" or "Is that a V-6?" The FD still gets more double-takes than my Detroit steel vehicle (made in Bowling Green, Kentucky).
Ron A.

RETed

Boy, I've normally avoid threads like this, but I was bored.

1000hp daily driver?&nbsp Uh, I wanna see that.&nbsp 700hp daily drivers SCARE ME!&nbsp If you say otherwise, I'd say you have no idea what you're talking about.

V8 in an FC?&nbsp Go for it - I got nothing against it.&nbsp We'll see what happens when your V8 goes u against a 20B in an FC.

Seriously, we've got a few people in here that have done non-rotary engine conversions.&nbsp But, don't be as dumb to think you're not going to catch any flak from it.&nbsp It's sorta like going into a Ford forums and asking about doing a Chevy engine swap into a Ford.&nbsp Yes, the query is innocent, but there is a time and a place for everything...




-Ted

ChrisV

I keep getting in trouble for calling some people here ignorant, but some of you really, really push that button!

Of course you don't. You'd have to actually LEARN something to believe the many people here who have DONE it. We've weighed the cars. Mine had better weight distribution after the conversion than before, and spent less than a couple grand on the whole thing. I weighed it. Have you? the TII weighs more than my car, and has MORE weight on the nose than mine. IF Mazda designed the car around light weight, what does that say for the conversion? The TII 13b, with turbo units, PS, and AC, weighs the same as my 5.0 that didn't have AC or PS (which I didn't need). But the kicker was that, even though the 5.0 weighs 150 lbs MORE than an N/A 13b wothout AC or PS, the engine sits far enough back that the total weight, with the battery moved to the well behind the passenger seat, and the large oil cooler removed, barely changes at all, and the small amount of added weight is added more rearward than forward. Again, we've weighed the cars before and after. We know for a fact. You DON'T.

So you are saying that the FC is exactly the same car, both in competence and in quality as the Monza? I didn't know the FC was a live axle, heavy chassis with poor fit and finish, worse ergonomics, and flexible! In fact, your attitude is that other than the rotary, the FC is a POS! It must be a crappy car not worth driving without that 145 hp powerhouse under the ill-fitting and poor quality hood, isn't it?


The truth is the FC is a rather inexpensive car with an outstanding chassis, great build quality, great ergonomics, good looks, and a rather weak engine that is costing quite a bit to rebuild. It retains ALL the
good qualities whether it has an N/A 13B, a much heavier Turbo 13B with all the options, or a modded domestic V8.

Cipher

I swear, every time......

I don't give a flying rats a$$ what is under the hood of ANY RX7. The cars LOOK nice. My car is 13 years old and still looks modern (to an extent). I have NEVER heard anyone say "boy the engine you got in that car is nice"... Most people say "Nice CAR, what is it".

This on going debate is worthless. It's kinda like a computer. What would you say if you currently had a pentium computer and you wanted to upgrade. Now everyone knows that Intel cost more than AMD. So you tell me - "Hey I've got this computer I want to upgrade and put an ADM 1.7 with DDR Ram etc.etc.etc". Now what would you say to me if I said - "That's a crying shame! You can't put an AMD in an Intel case, it's blasphamy!"

Sounds pretty stupid... err dumb. Doesn't it.

And the point is not that I have a 1000+HP daily driver, but I could. You tell me, have you even heard of a 1000HP rotary, I haven't. But I have heard of 1000+HP DAILY DRIVEN Mustangs and `Vettes. And NO just because I can have that kind of power doesn't mean I'm gonna.

This issue has been beaten to death. The name of this Forum is Not "ROTARY ONLY RX7" is it???? The 50/50 Balance things is old and has been dis-proven over and over again.

One more point to make - Car and Driver did a test. FD versus `Vette. We all know a stock FD can out slalom a stock `Vette (and these where the cars used in the test, among others). They said, and I quote - "The shear power of the `Vette makes up for any shortcommings in the handeling department." So yea, you might get him on the twisties, but one little ol straight away and you can give it up. So fu*k 50/50 distribution. It's not all that important.

The people who do not agree with these conversions never will. So for all that do not, I hope you are not doing anything to your car that everyone else isn't. `Cause apparently, if it is different then you can't do it without someone calling you a moron !

West TX RX-7

I don't recall ever saying it was the exact same car nor did I hint at it. I said the FC and monza are about the same size. The only reason I could think of why you want a V8 in a FC is for drag racing, since thats the case I suggested putting it in a monza because with a V8 in either car it's not gonna handle worth a ****! Think before you speak and stop putting words in peoples mouths.

West TX RX-7

The key word is MOST. Not all, it's important to some people to keep the original motor in the rx-7. It's a rotory man!!

Ummm, if I was an intel computer freak I would say hell ya tell em how it is!


Ummm try catchingSoul Assassin on the straight. There are many very fast rotories out there. You cry "it costs soo much!" BooFuckinHoo... Thats what it is all about brother! Makin that lil Wankle Spank some big v8 or v10 muscle. It's a challenge and fun as hell!

Cipher

I never said you couldn't make a fast rotary. Truth be told I have a family and would like to spend some of my money on my kids.

So dollar for dollar I can build a bas *** 350 for WAY cheaper and MORE reliable than a rotary.

If I had the money to spend I would drop a turbo 20B in my car, but unless you, or someone else is gonna give me the money to do it, AND the money to rebuild it then back off. I want my car, MY CAR, to be fast. And I'll do it the cheapest way I can.

By cheap I mean 700+ horses at the wheels for under 12K. All forged parts and a 2004R built to handle 1000HP with a 3500 stall. for under 15K. Last time I rebuilt my engine it cost me over 8K. You can rebuild a chevy for under 1K and not have to worry about worn housing......

To each his own, but don't jump people's a$$es becuase they want performance from a great looking car for 1/2 the price and headaches of building up a rotary.

Did I mention I will also have low end torque..........

And before you say anything about wheel spin, there are many computer apps that simulate these kinds of things. Wheel spin will be non-existant......

But like I said, it's my car. If you wanna give me the money so I can do what YOU want me to do with it, go ahead. If not, back off and do what you want to YOUR car.

I'm not worried about making a 1.3 liter beat a 5.7 liter. I want my CAR to be fast than the CAR next to me.

Just like the anology above - the Intel has things it excels at, the rotary has things it excels at. The flip side is.... The AMD also has things it excels at, so do V8's.

And we (RX7 owners) are not the only group putting chevies into our cars. They make a conversion kit for almost every make of car out there. Why, because...unless you're rich....why spend all the money to build whatever engine (ford, mazd, MOPAR) when you can do it for LOTS cheaper with a chevy.

peejay

Wow, so RX-7s are just pieces of **** that are no fun to drive or no good to look at, but they have rotary engines in them so that's the only reason to have one?

Sir you do not deserve an RX-7. You will now be forced to drive a rusted out, multicolored '76 Caprice with dead shocks, dried out cross-ply tires, and an asthmatic 10A. (After all the car doesn't matter as long as it's rotary powered)

Displacement/HP ratio... What a crock. The most powerful rotary on US shores was the FD engine, which managed a mere 255hp out of equivalent 2.6l displacement (COMPARED TO A FOUR-STROKE BOINGER) And Mazda never had as much power to displacement as the NSU rotaries, because Mazda uses side intake ports. NSU had 120hp from a 10A-sized engine, when Mazda 12As were working hard to just make 100hp. And the NSU made its peak power 1500rpm LOWER which indicates the NSU was much more efficient.

Rotaries are cool, but they are NOT the only reason to want an RX-7, and they are NOT efficient in any way I can think of measuring. (But they're cheap to make more power and they're loud as f*ck and that's why I like 'em)

1FastT2

iTrader: (1)

It sounds like the debate is getting more intense! But im for sure staying out of this one.

Cipher

I don't think I should've said anything either. No one seems to flame anyone about thier sexual preferences on this board, so why bother with the engine preference ????

NZConvertible

Actually the rotary engine has much higher volumetric efficiency (no valves in airpath means less restriction) and mechanical efficiency (no parasitic valvetrain, no valves causing pumping losses, fewer moving parts for less friction) than a piston engine, but a slightly worse thermal efficiency due to its relatively poor combustion chamber shape (long and thin). These are all very easily measured.

krazie2insane

i appreciate the people that have said helpful things, but the rest of you can shut the **** up cause cause i cant afford to rebuild or buy an expensive *** rotary everybody i have called has said good luck they aint worth **** so if you aitn got anything positive to say stay the **** out of my business

NZConvertible

You was clipped! Somone saw you coming

RETed

That really was uncalled for.&nbsp If I was a moderator, you would've at least been warned if not banned for being out of line.



-Ted

peejay

Modern piston engines have much higher VE than anything but a well-tuned bridge/peripheral ported engines. Side-ports max out somewhere around 90%VE. Even "ancient" engines like 5.0 Mustangs have over 100%VE at peak torque.

Rotaries have a much higher BSFC than piston engines. This is measuring how much fuel it takes to make a given HP over a given period of time. Again, only when you go to bridge or peripheral ported engines with well tuned runners (like the 787B engine) will you see BSFC numbers close to what piston engines will do... but in a narrow range.

NSU knew all this and used small peripheral ported engines in heavy cars, combined with an automatic transmission. The automatic kept the engine in its efficient part of the curve, and the low HP/weight meant the engine was under heavy load - a small engine under heavy load is much more efficient than a larger one at lower load, especially for peripheral rotaries.
Mazda decided to go the far less efficient route, with the benefits of smooth running at all RPM and better economy at low RPM and low loading. The Renesis is a more extreme example of this - notice how they tout how it's so much more efficient at IDLE?

1FastT2

iTrader: (1)

Agreed!

peejay

Actually, one thing that draws me to rotaries is how CHEAP they are to rebuild, compared to most boingers.

I figured it out one time that it would be $1800 to rebuild the 13B in my GXL, and $1800 to swap in a 5.0. On the one hand, we're talking 146hp versus a minimum of 225hp (more like 300hp if you breathe on it lightly). On the other hand, we're talking about a rebuilt engine that will go another 200k, versus a used 5.0 that is going to need rebuilt in the next year, especially considering that I'd be stuck with the stock 3.90 gearing and I do most of my driving on the highway.

So it's a wash, really. A J-spec 13BT costs about $900... I was thinking about taking the turbo off (and throwing it far, far away ) putting the GXL's injectors and sensors on the turbo engine, and running it N/A. Believe it or not it should make at least as much power as the 6-port engine.

Felix Wankel

hey peejay, buy a s5 J-spec and I'll buy the turbo and manifold from you. You can recoup some of the money

peejay

Sounds like a plan! How does $900 sound?

Actually, I already have a line on a 6-port engine, I hotwired the starter and it sounds like it has good compression so it should be just fine... I'm thinking, the GXL will the the daily driver/winterbeater (hey, it's an automatic - not worth modding, plus the paint is ugly) and backup car to the '85, which will get modded over time. the trick is, living in Cleveland, cars under 25 years old have to pass emissions every other year, which means putting a half-bridge in the '85 will require a temporary engine swap every other year. No big deal, some of my friends do that with their Mustangs, but it'd be nice to have a backup car, and not have to drive the '85 in the winter. They put down salt at about a 1:1 ratio of precipitation, by volume. (ever see a dark green car turn white in 10 miles?)

RobH

Originally posted by krazie2insane
i appreciate the people that have said helpful things, but the rest of you can shut the **** up cause cause i cant afford to rebuild or buy an expensive *** rotary everybody i have called has said good luck they aint worth **** so if you aitn got anything positive to say stay the **** out of my business
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Gentleman AND a Scholar.


Rob H.

Diverse Vocabulary. Really.

RX7THVN

Krazie2insane,

I apologise on behalf of everyone who has given you flames here...but I do have to say this - if you don't love the rotary, please sell your RX7 and get a piston engine powered car. I mean, what is the point of getting a RX7? Yes, it's good looking, and yes, it's relatively fast. But gimmie the $, I can make ANY CAR go fast. So what's so special about the rex? It's the power plant under the hood.

You have to learn to appreciate how much guts the guys at Mazda had when they first came out with the rotaries. I mean, Ford, GM, and even Chevy were all researching the rotary back in the 70s, but nobody, except for Mazda, actually have the guts to come out with a production car that is rotary-powered.

I hope you'll realise that the RX7 is truly a "one of a kind" car.

scathcart

There are a lot of ROTARY enthusiasts on here that can't even spell the engine correctly.
For me, I love owning an rx7 because it is a great car. It handles beautifully, makes great smooth power and has super high revs. But I love the cars for much more than their engine, the looks, the sound, the styling, the handling.
I respect that rotary engines are expensive. If you need to be cheap, then put in a 350. You can keep the great handling, and go with a cheaper engine.
For me, though, it just doesn't make sense. It is an exotic car that has been most distinctly represented by its different engine. There are plenty of great looking cars out there, why does a swap have to happen to an RX7?
For me, it is like a ferrari. Who in their right mind would swap out a ferrari engine and put in a chevy big block. Sure, the chevy will make more power and be cheaper than hell to build, but you are losing the main part of a ferrari, Its god damn sweet *** engine.
Owning an exotic car isn't about being the fastest, or the loudest, it's about being DIFFERENT. Sure it is different to put in a non-stock engine, but you're just turning the car into any other camaro or mustang.
If you want to, go for the engine swap. It'll be cheap and make power. But there's always gonna be people faster than you. Lots of them. And the Rx7's that are will most likely have the rotaries. And they will be able to feel proud because they did not have to cut down to the simplest and cheapest form of power.
I'm sure people will help, but maybe not after the extremely rude post you just made.
Sean Cathcart

J-Rat

iTrader: (2)

Let me give you a tip,

This is a fairly good way to get banned really quickly...Then the thread will get closed. And if you are gonna flame, and waste a warning, at least you could do it intelligently.

Rat

Cipher

That price was for a NEW engine with a streetport,, race bearing, clearanced housings, new clutch, new vac lines, OMP adapter, E-Fan, shifter, gaskets, new injectors, new OMP lines, new OMP injectors, powder coated intake, new OMP....

The list goes on, but you get the idea. Rotaries are known not to last long when you rebuild, so for a new engine you spend 4K+. And sure, rebuild kits for the rotary and a chevy are about the same price, which will last you longer AT HIGH HP NUMBERS when you rebuild?

Now, comparing STOCK numbers, you get about the same mileage from an NA as you do a boinger, but who keeps thier engines stock.

And I did the work myself, I never checked prices to get this done, but considering there are so few shops around that we would trust our cars to, the lobar can't be cheap. On the other hand, you can pay someone to rebuild a chevy about 1K.

Anyway, I wouldn't be telling the people in here to **** off. Even with a V8 in the car you're still gonna need someones help with other aspects, so this is not a good way to stay on these peoples "good" list. Even with a differnent engine most of these guys would help out in other areas of the car.

Go to http://www.grannysspeedshop.com for the conversion kit, a list of trannies to use, engine ideas and pics of other peoples cars.