Icemark

I keep hearing of these mutant conversions where people say that they have insane HP, perfect balance, better weight distribution, greener grass, and self cleaning toilets for $2500.

Ok so maybe I exagerated there, but fill me in if I am wrong, but don't most of these mutant conversions also add a auto tranny? no one ever seems to mention that.

So when they say stuff like:

Are they including a POS chevy tranny as well? I mean I remember when the GM F bodies first got 190 HP back in the late eighties and were exploding factory tranny cases.

Then Cipher also said:
and I have to wonder, what mechanic is gonna want to touch that mutant car to rebuild the engine??? take it to a GM mech and he will laugh at you... take it to a mazda mech and he will tell you to tow it away...

Maybe thats why I only see people having a very hard time giving away those conversions

Cipher

Just because it's an auto tranny doesn't make it a POS. I can get a rebuilt 2004r made to handle 1000+HP for 1000$ including the torque converter with a 1 year warranty.

And at those power levels I would much rather have an auto then the manual. Why - in the long run money spent for clutches/diffs will add up to ALOT of money.

My goal for my car is not road racing, I am and have always been into drag cars. And in the drag circut CONSISTANCY is the key to winning. That is why Auto trannies are so popular in that type of racing.

And begging your pardon, I already have people wanting pics and timeslips to put on thier web pages - they don't car that it is a import with a domestic engine - it's a nice car doing well under 10 seconds in the quarter - AND it's my daily driver.

I have no doubt what-so-ever that a rotary could be built to do this - BUT I know for a fact it wouldn't be streetable. I am not looking for for a car that will slam you into the doors on a 1+ G turn, I am after ***** to the wall acceleration. 2+ G's with the engine/tranny/diff/converter combo I'm looking at.

And if chevies are such a POS - WHY ARE THEY THE MOST POPULAR NAME IN DRAG RACING ?????

The engine that's sitting in my garage right now produces over 600 horses. I have a Pro Fogger system with 200 jets controlled by a Jacobs Mastermind - NOS will be set to come on at 3000RPM at 10% and increase to 100% at 6000RPM. that's 700+ horses at the wheels. 2.78 G forces, 9.4 seconds @ 143 with the tach reading 5200RPM. Boy, sounds like a POS to me......

And at these power levels with me driving the car like I always have, the engine will last me longer than a moded TII.....

WHAT A POS.

ChrisV

Icemark, most Chevy conversions use either the T5 5 speed or the T56 6 speed, as found in the late Firebird/Camaro. Most Ford conversions use the T5.

Mark (GNX7) used an automatic, as his GNX powered one is a drag car.

My 5.0 conversion, one of the first (back in '93) used a B&M modded AOD automatic for a few reasons. 1) I already had it. That's a big factor. 2) It's an easier conversion (no clutch linkage issues, and the shifter can be positioned wherever you want it, so I could use a stock Mazda shifter). 3) After years of autocrossing high horsepower, high torque cars, I've found that a shift kitted automatic is a faster trans. AND it's one less thing to think about on a tight course. 4) after gettting burned in a car fire, and spending 6 months in a wheelchair, my left ankle doesn't work properly. To much use of a performance clutch and I can end up in pain for weeks. An important thought in a car that might end up in stop and go traffic a lot.

The AOD never blew up behind my 400 hp 5.0.

But the GM 700R4 trans (not the 200 R4 that blew up a lot), or the TH350 or TH400 trans, are strong, reliable transmissions that live quite nicely behind 600+ hp engines. They are not the weak POS you think they are.

What kind of mechanic would touch it? 90% of mechanics shops are general, not specific manufacturer. And ANY high performance shop will work on them. You think only factory service departments are out there? Who builds the Chevy engined '34 Ford street rods? Get a clue, ok? Most are very clean conversions (you saw mine and the one from V8RX7.com, right? They aren't hack jobs.)

Scathcart, the 2nd gen RX7 is hardly exotic. Any mass produced car available in large numbers now for around $2k for a nice example is hardly exotic OR unique. My 5.0 RX7 was vastly more unique.

Why start with one instead of something else? I already had it. It was my autocrosser for a year, then it blew up (like many here). It was meticulously maintained and ran perfect up to the point the stock fuel injection ran lean momentarily, destroying a rear apex seal and the rear half or the engine in the process. That left me with an approximately $500 car with $2000-2500 in repair work to return it to it's 145 hp former self. Back then, there was NO one running a daily driver 300+hp rotary on a $7.50/hr budget. I had a H.O. 5.0 sitting there, which at 225 hp was still more than the rotary, with much more torque. The RX7 had an excellent chassis. It's a great combination. Much like the V8 powered 240Zs. After fabbing the mounts ($20!) a good friend decided to sell me his ex-race 302 for a grand, on $100 a month payments! The other bits wer bought on a $1000 limit credit card. This was the ONLY way this car would have been able to go back together.

I've rebuilt rotaries for my autocrossers (an RX2, a couple RX3s, and a couple RX7s). The days of the $300 12A rebuild are long gone.

For other people, why start with one? It's a fantastic chassis, easily found in good shape for under $500. Look at the one Node passed up (and everyone told him he should have passed up). A great chassis for $500, that you guys said was a POS to stay away from. If it's so easy to make a cheap rotary, why turn away ANY $500 TII??? Yet, had someone come along and put a V8 in that car, even the people already calling that particular car a POS would say that the V8 "ruined" it. How can you "ruin" something most of you already call a POS? If it was an exotic, how could it be a POS that he should stay away from? Simple: there are SOOO many of them that it's easy to find a better one for cheap, too. Hence, NON-EXOTIC.

You're already throwing the damn things away. Why should you care about what happens to dead ones you've already written off?

Felix Wankel

I wonder if all the people that are quick to call a Chevy V8 a POS have ever built one? I built a 406 small block for a Malibu that wouls lay waste to 90% of the cars in this forum. Cost for the engine? About 3500 top to bottom. Carb to oil pan. Big heavy *** Malibu running low low 11's is SUCH a POS. Heh.

Before you go tell me about soul's car and how fast it is, I already know. How many more can you name off the top of your head? Crispeed's car is hella fast, but not very streetable. I love the rotary more than anything, but its sheer idiocy to dismiss the fact that a V8 can pump out cheap, reliable power. **** they have only been hot rodding them since 1955

I've been looking for a Chevy truck with a shot engine so I can build the 383 stroker that I want. Already have the block and some of the parts. I guess I'll build a hauler that will whoop most of the FC's here so you can call it a POS

Go a head and call me a redneck. I've had so many RX-7s I get dizzy thinking about them. I have 3 right now. Plus an RX-2. Hmm, I wonder if a GN engine will fit in my RX-2.....

No7Yet

Whoa, there, buddy! You're comparing apples and oranges!

Do something for me, call Chevy, and ask them to give you a quote for a NEW crate 350 with ported heads, a lumpier cam, hydraulic lifters, hardened (or whatever) main bearings, balanced & blueprinted well, and shiny valve covers, as well as all of the other boinger-equivalents to the MODS you listed for the rotary. I'll bet you ballocks to a barnyard it's more than the paltry $1800 you were quoted.

Now I want you to call around and ask for a price to REBUILD your rotary. Now add porting and all-new soft seals, and apexes. It'll be about $1k. And don't get started talking about "but I needed new housings and rotors", because then you'll need to add a new block and pistons to keep the boinger side even.

Fact is, you'll spend MORE money (note: starting with all-new parts, as you wished with the rotary) building a badass V8 than you will building a rotary that can handle big power. You need to compare apples to apples before you can start drawing conclusions, buddy.

Brandon

Felix Wankel

Sigh.

http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerc...br=76&lastcat=

GM Performance Parts ''Fast Burn 385'' Crate Engine

Value Priced Power, Great Durability, and Easy Power Upgrades
This engine uses the ZZ4 shortblock and ads to it the Fast Burn cylinder heads for 385 horsepower. The Fast Burn uses stamped steel 1.5 rocker arms and the same camshaft as the ZZ4, but these heads are hungry for more. Approximately 425 horsepower at 6000 RPM is achievable by adding a little more camshaft and 1.6 rocker arms. The Fast Burn is an excellent choice for the basis of a custom engine. Its forged steel crankshaft and forged PM connecting rods have been proven to 500 horsepower.


385 HP @ 5600 RPM, 385 FT.LBS. of Torque @ 4000 RPM (Max. Recommended RPM: 5800)
9.6:1 Compression Ratio
Cast Iron 4-Bolt Block with One-Piece Rear Main Seal
Forged Steel Crankshaft
High Silicon Aluminum Pistons w/Offset Pins
PM Steel Connecting Rods
Aluminum 62cc Fast Burn Chamber Cylinder Heads w/ 2.00'' Int./ 1.55'' Exh. Valves
Steel Hydraulic Roller Cam, Lift: .474'' Int./ .510'' Exh., Duration @ .050: 208° Int./ 221° Exh.
1.5 Ratio Rocker Arms
Aluminum Dual Plane Intake Manifold
HEI Distributor
8'' High-RPM Torsional Damper
Cast Iron Water Pump
12.75'' Flexplate

Price: 4,079.99 (In my catalog on my desk its 3999.99)

Add an 850cfm Holley double pumper for just under $500 and a set of headers foe about $200 depending on your chassis, and you're good to go. If you want to keep it FI, a TPI setup can be had rather cheaply.

You can save money piecing it together yourself, but I'm too lazy to look up all the parts.

Rotary time, to keep it ''apple to apples'' I'm gonna look up rebuilt engines, since I ALREADY KNOW that you can build them cheaper yourself. Don't bother telling me later, you'll just look dumb.

http://www.pineappleracing.com/PricelistSvcs.html

**** a good ported 13B is gonna run $2500- 3000.

Good aftermarket turbo manifold: $300
Turbo: $600
Wastegate: $3-400
Custom downpipe to fit your custom turbo and manifold: $100-200 depending on who makes it
FMIC: $300-1100
Injectors: $300
Engine management: :$1-2k


I'm not EVEN gonna delve into tuning the ****, Run a SBC down the street, pull the plugs and see if its rich. If you hear it pinging, let off and pull the timing back a bit when you get back home. Thats a welcome alternative to hours of dyno time to get the fuel map just right and watching 30 gauges to make sure you don't go lean. (Trust me I watch all the gauges in my TII like a hawk).

All said, would I swap a SBC into an FC? No. But to dismiss a V8 as a POS is ridiculous. I know I'm gonna post a timeslip in here when I finally build my ''POS'' truck (see my above post)....

ChrisV

You're assuming again.

My 13B needed new housings and rear rotor, along with the rebuild. Why should I be forced to compare to a V8 that needs a new block and pistons, when I already had one that didn't need those? What it took to rebuild the rotary I had vs what it took to install the V8 I had. That's the cost comparison. PERIOD. Are you saying that in order to be fair to YOU that when my rotary died, the V8 I already had sitting there could NOT be used, and I had to go find a different one that needed block and pistons in order for you to think it a fair comparison of costs to me? Sorry, I'm going to compare what's available to me.

So the bottom line is: it cost ME less to install that V8 than it would cost ME, at that time, to rebuild the dead rotary I HAD, and vastly less than making it a 400 hp rotary. That's the only comparison I had to make.

You need to stop putting non-existent conditions on reality before drawing conclusions, too. You can't say that because he or I needed to replace housings and a rotor that the ONLY V8s we could look at to replace it HAVE to have blocks and pistons replaced. Reality doesn't work that way. We compare what's available in our budget.

No7Yet

Touche Sorry if I flamed, this is a pretty impassioned thread.

All that I was trying to say is that to correctly compare the cost of a V8 buildup and a rotary buildup, one can't compare a modified, new-engine-based rotary teardown and rebuild to a stock-rebuilt junkyard camaro engine - you've gotta keep apples in the apples bin People like to run around saying "look how much it costs to build a 300 hp rotary when I can buy a 350 from a yard for $500", and that irks me.

Now, I can appreciate that you already had a 5.0 sitting in your garage (or whatever). Like you said, it cost YOU less to put it in YOUR car. Kudos. Just don't try to bring it to an RX-7 club meeting where I'm in attendance

Brandon

Icemark

Actually your right Felix, I shouldn't be making such comments as calling them all POS.

My only expericences in the early 80's and again in the late 90's have left me with such a sour taste in my mouth I could never consider owning a GM powered vehicle again. I am sure that if I had spent enough time and money, that the GM vehicles I owned or friends owned would have become perfectly viable vehicles.

But to GM I say, "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me", so the concept of a GM motored car being a reliable daily driver with gobbs of HP seems unfathomable.

Maybe people like Chris have done it... but I don't beleive him or anyone when he says it can be done for less $ and still be as reliable as the rotary.

So I am sorry to anyone I offended with my comment suggesting GM only makes POS, again it is simply from my own experience.

Felix Wankel

The GM drivetrains for the most part are great. Its the build quality of the cars that leaves something to be desired. Although owning an RX-7 doesn't leave one much room to talk about build quality (Cold solder? Brittle interior plastic? Pulsation dampeners? Sound familiar?)

West TX RX-7

Another idiot trying to put words in peoples mouths. HELLO!!! Did I ever say anything like that :points up:. No I didn't. If your gonna flame me for something I said be accurate about it. You make yourself look like a complete ******* when you make up words for someone and then shoot them down for it. WTF?

I like the way my FC rides just fine, although i'm in the process of putting aftermarket springs, struts, anti-roll bars, disks, calipers, brake lines, to help improve upon what mazda has already done. And No, putting a 350 in a car made specifically for a rotory is not an improvement. It's an insult to the engineers who made the car.

Would I bitch if someone put a ford motor in a Chevy, Hell YA! Same with a Chevy in a ford.

Now I do love the chevy V8. Here is my 383 (350 w/400 crank), 4500 stall on a 350 tranny. Thompsons rubber and my 55.



This motor is awiating a body. A Chevy body.



Just to show ya I'm not some import crazy American car hater. I've had this car for 17 years and have done alot to it over the years to make it as nice as it is today. I don't have any Mazda parts on it BTW.



Just to show ya cause i like em = )

Cipher

Where did I say my engine cost that much???? My engine (383) was 8K complete (from oil pan to spark plugs). That's what I spent the first time around putting my rotary in my car - only now I have 500 more ponies to play with.

Apples and oranges, huh.... How much would it cost to get 700+ STREETABLE horeses from a rotary?????

I rest my case.

Did I metion it was streetable?

Cipher

And I was not comparing a modified rotary to a stock 350. Read previous post. It was a modified rotary vs modified 350.

And 9 times ot of 10 when you rebuild a boinger the only thing you have to do is hone the bores - not bore them out. 9 times out of 10 if you re-use your old housing, the engine will not last as long. This is very agreed upon and I believe Mazdatrix has a write up of that fact on thier site.

And to go a cheaper route - IF I need to re-bore my block, I can always get sleeves put in... Before anything is said on that, remember that the LS1 aluminum block has sleeves in it - OH WAIT I'M SORRY - IT'S A POS.

Thier are pros and cons to whatever engine you put in the damn car. My biggest PRO is HP/MONEY ratio. I can get more ponies from the 350 and still drive my car to the grocery store.

Cipher

Oh wait. one more thing - If you wanna compare aplles to oranges - Take a modified rotary ~8K with new parts - then go ahead and get the engine/driveline from a junkyrad (better yet EBAY, LS1 package w/ecu and tranny $2500). That's at least 4K cheaper - AND ~200 more horses!!!!!

Icemark

Actually my problems with a F body and a couple of S/T and C/K trucks were all drive train or brakes related...

Minor interior stuff like poor plastic or bad solder joints can be found on any car from the eighites.

ChrisV

Icemark, I'm sorry you don't believe me. But it is still a fact that a 400 hp V8 is barely stressed, and can easily live a couple hundered thousand miles without anyone looking at the gauges. You have to watch the gauges on a 400 hp rotary like a hawk to make sure it's always spot on, and it will still be more likely to fail that the V8 at that power level. V8s have been like that for decades. There is a reasonable history of experience to draw from to make that statement.

And a $500 junkyard V8 at, say, 300 stock hp will most likely be a daily driveable low maintenance engine regardless of the mileage on it. Yes, any engine could blow up at any time. But for the cost, you can have more power, more reliably, from the understressed V8. I don't need new parts to make 300-400 hp and 300-400 lbs ft of torque from a reliable V8. I DO from a rotary. So why should I compare new parts? Whether a NEW V8 costs more or less isn't a budgetary issue, as it isn't a requirement to getting that reliable hp/torque. The ONLY comparison I need to make is how much it costs to get the reliable hp/torque I want. If in a particular case that comparison goes to the V8 (like it did in my case) then so be it.

And hey, YOU may luck out and find a buddy with a crashed 400 hp RX7 that will sell you the fresh Turbo 13B cheap, too. In which case, it doesn't matter what a new one of those would cost. If he sold it to you for $500, would you be out of line saying it cost you $500 for 400 hp, simply because *I* couldn't duplicate that without getting a similar buddy deal? No. Because that's what it cost you. Would you turn down that $500 400 hp rotary, knowing how it was built, simply because it wouldn't be fair to spend less than the cost of a new one? Would you turn it down because the rest of us couldn't buy a duplicate for the same price? I doubt it.

It's not comparing apples to oranges. It's comparing what is available in a price range.

West TX RX7, no one is putting words in your mouth. They are reading the meaning of this statement:

That means that NONE of the rest of the car matters: the "whole" reason is the rotary engine. In other words, it doesn't matter what the rest of the car is, the engine is the only important part. Thus the inference that a beat up Caprice with balding tires and a tired 10a rotary is as good a car as an RX7.

And this:

The FC looks better, is lighter (my V8 weighed 2720 lbs. Compare to stock TII), has IRS, is a 2 seater, the engine (even the V8) is set back behind the axle centerline for great handling (my autrocross V8 FC is proof: the non-turbo V8 with battery in the rear weighs basically the same in the front as a stock TII with intercooler, large oil cooler, battery, and A/C. You don't think the stock TII handles bad, do you? How about one with Tokiko sport springs, Tokiko struts, and a larger sway bar? So why would you think the V8 one handles bad?). Thus drag racing had NO bearing on the install of the V8. You are WRONG about the weight and handling. We didn't put the words in your mouth. You did.

As Cipher said, you want to spend three times the money to act out your own Napolean complex, go ahead. But until you come over and earn the extra money you want him to spend on his own car, then you have no say in how his money is spent. You want to flip me off again, you'd better be ready for the result.

Cipher

DAYUM!!!

:grabs the chain and yells "DOWN BOY":

The only thing that earks me is the people saying "You don't deserve the car". OK dad, I'm sorry for hittin the dog (thick sarcasem). Who are you (or anyone else on the board) to tell anyone hear what they do and do not deserve? The guy only asked what had to be done to get a V8 in his car, he didn't ask if he should do it.

That is the only thing that gets to my. Don't put another person down because he wants to do something that you do not. No one on this board flames someone for puttin the rotary in another car (VW, Miata etc), but god forbid they put a V(whatever) in an RX7.

I think I'm done, ChrisV can handle this from now on.....

Cipher

:lets go of the chain:

rx7_ragtop

Ok, as usual with these threads, this is WAY out of hand... and as usual, Chris is right in the middle.

A flame AND a threat in one post? You have been warned REPEATEDLY before, and you always push the limits. Maybe you can learn to tone it down in the next week. Come back then if you can, for now you are banned.

Brad

Cipher

Welp, there goes the neighborhood. What am I supposed to do without my "muscle"?

1FastT2

iTrader: (1)

West TX RX-7

I'm just posting my opinion. I never said he couldn't do it or that I think he's a bad man for doing it, It's just something I wouldn't do and said why I wouldn't. Geez!! Hehehe you getting way to worked up over this!

rx7_ragtop

NO FLAMES, Warning #1

Brad

rx7_ragtop

We don't tolerate this type of attitude here... same thing as flaming. Warning #1

rx7_ragtop

Yeah... they just leave out the part explaining that in order to keep the balance you have to remove the A/C, Power Steering, etc.

Brad