View Poll Results: Would you prefer the caliper be located outward such that it...
results in ~0.090" of pad overhang but is closer to a bolt on operation
8
18.18%
uses the full pad but requires you dremel open the edges of the caliper slot
36
81.82%
Voters: 44. You may not vote on this poll
Mandeville style 4 wheel big brakes for FC - feedback needed
07-14-08, 03:31 PM
#101
the implications matter
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Blown motor...
http://www.v8rx7forum.com/v8-rx7-tec...tonwillow.html
Rotary boys may now commence their cheap shots...
Special hellos to MaczPayne and HotRodMex... nice to meet you fellas even if it was a crappy day.
http://www.v8rx7forum.com/v8-rx7-tec...tonwillow.html
Rotary boys may now commence their cheap shots...
Special hellos to MaczPayne and HotRodMex... nice to meet you fellas even if it was a crappy day.
Last edited by frijolee; 07-14-08 at 03:44 PM.
07-27-08, 05:30 PM
#109
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I had the opposite issue. In the Edmonton Indy support race qualifying session I was running my GT35R Turbo 13B @ 15 lbs of boost. Using yokohama A005 slicks I was pulling 1.51 G in some corners and 125 mph on the front straight (according to my traqmate data acq system). After a number of hard laps my brakes started to fade a little, no big deal I've driven with a bit of fade before, so I eased up a bit and kept going. Next lap I completely lost brakes and threw the car into a spin to avoid hitting a concrete wall. I tapped another car as it went by, denting in the left rear a bit.
Short story:
Stock TII brakes are not enough for 400 rwhp, 2300 lbs car weight and slicks, even with 3" brake ducting to the center of the rotors and carbotech XP12 brake pads. I'm building a wilwood 6 piston setup over the next few weeks.
Good part of the story: my best lap time was 86.55 seconds / lap. The overall winning car, A Verhag ex-Trans-am corvette (700 or so hp) was lapping at 83.10 seconds / lap
cheers,
-Trent.
Short story:
Stock TII brakes are not enough for 400 rwhp, 2300 lbs car weight and slicks, even with 3" brake ducting to the center of the rotors and carbotech XP12 brake pads. I'm building a wilwood 6 piston setup over the next few weeks.
Good part of the story: my best lap time was 86.55 seconds / lap. The overall winning car, A Verhag ex-Trans-am corvette (700 or so hp) was lapping at 83.10 seconds / lap
cheers,
-Trent.
07-29-08, 05:17 AM
#110
The real bottom line here for the legal issue is this in my mind:
1. you have a product that if you sell directly to a consumer and that consumer has a failure you COULD be in serious doo doo
2. you don't want nor can you accept the liability for that product, easily.
3. you DO have a product that alot of people want.
Here is a suggestion. Do not sell ANYTHING related to this kit, the brackets, the instructions, the information, nothing.
DO however sell a factory service manual, say a Haynes factory service manual for an FC3S, for about 500.00 or whatever a Haynes manual is "worth" when the purchaser gets their service manual, in the box will be some used aluminum parts that you need disposed of, junk if you will. setup a web page "documenting" your brake install and how you did the actual install. DO NOT put information on how to get that information in the box anywhere, put it in your signature or something.
You get my drift right, you are selling a service manual nothing more, yes its expensive but that IS what it is and what is being sold, nothing more, you will need to actually send the manual, say nothing of the parts that come extra with it, the junk parts, the information about YOUR brake kit work and install is just your documenting what you did, if people use that thats their business.
I would bet that anyone would have a VERY hard time linking you selling a service manual with an entire brake kit and installation instructions etc.
I myself would like to order one of the service manuals you might have for sale, how much and when could I get it ?
1. you have a product that if you sell directly to a consumer and that consumer has a failure you COULD be in serious doo doo
2. you don't want nor can you accept the liability for that product, easily.
3. you DO have a product that alot of people want.
Here is a suggestion. Do not sell ANYTHING related to this kit, the brackets, the instructions, the information, nothing.
DO however sell a factory service manual, say a Haynes factory service manual for an FC3S, for about 500.00 or whatever a Haynes manual is "worth" when the purchaser gets their service manual, in the box will be some used aluminum parts that you need disposed of, junk if you will. setup a web page "documenting" your brake install and how you did the actual install. DO NOT put information on how to get that information in the box anywhere, put it in your signature or something.
You get my drift right, you are selling a service manual nothing more, yes its expensive but that IS what it is and what is being sold, nothing more, you will need to actually send the manual, say nothing of the parts that come extra with it, the junk parts, the information about YOUR brake kit work and install is just your documenting what you did, if people use that thats their business.
I would bet that anyone would have a VERY hard time linking you selling a service manual with an entire brake kit and installation instructions etc.
I myself would like to order one of the service manuals you might have for sale, how much and when could I get it ?
07-29-08, 09:17 PM
#114
In The Twisties
I just hope eventually a decision is made and if Frijolee decides against selling these, he'll tell use what car the rotors he used are from so maybe some of us can attempt at making our own kit.
07-30-08, 07:25 PM
#116
the implications matter
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Sorry guys, the blown motor has been monopolizing all my time. I finally got the new motor last night: '04 LS1 from a GTO.
I don't have a problem if you try to create your own after all I'm following in Roger Mandeville's footsteps and he might not have been the originator either. As such, I'll let a bit of the cat out of the bag: Rotors are from the 350z track edition, though any set from a 350z or G35 equipped with brembos will do. Easily available and tons of options on rotor style, one piece, two piece, cross drilled. You name it, it's out there.
The only downside is that the front rotor moves outward so you need 17" wheels with 1.0 inch clear to the spokes ~1 inch further out on radius that the stock calipers. For the rears I would do the corksport setup if you were starting from scratch and run an adjustable prop valve to dial it in perfectly. Fitment of the 350z rears is a pain and took me several revisions to get right.
That said, the pro of running both 350z front and rear is that your brake bias is incredibly close to factory. It moves 0.5% to the rear based solely on the changing ratios of diameter and that wasn't enough for me to upset the balance on r-comps at Buttonwillow.
These are brakes we're talking about here so I'll assume you're not crazy enough to try this without knowing something about metallurgy, fatigue, and torque calculations. Until I'm sure I won't do anything with this myself, that part I'm not ready to share.
Good luck,
Joel
I don't have a problem if you try to create your own after all I'm following in Roger Mandeville's footsteps and he might not have been the originator either. As such, I'll let a bit of the cat out of the bag: Rotors are from the 350z track edition, though any set from a 350z or G35 equipped with brembos will do. Easily available and tons of options on rotor style, one piece, two piece, cross drilled. You name it, it's out there.
The only downside is that the front rotor moves outward so you need 17" wheels with 1.0 inch clear to the spokes ~1 inch further out on radius that the stock calipers. For the rears I would do the corksport setup if you were starting from scratch and run an adjustable prop valve to dial it in perfectly. Fitment of the 350z rears is a pain and took me several revisions to get right.
That said, the pro of running both 350z front and rear is that your brake bias is incredibly close to factory. It moves 0.5% to the rear based solely on the changing ratios of diameter and that wasn't enough for me to upset the balance on r-comps at Buttonwillow.
These are brakes we're talking about here so I'll assume you're not crazy enough to try this without knowing something about metallurgy, fatigue, and torque calculations. Until I'm sure I won't do anything with this myself, that part I'm not ready to share.
Good luck,
Joel
Last edited by frijolee; 07-30-08 at 07:39 PM.
07-30-08, 07:35 PM
#118
the implications matter
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That's a pro of meeting someone face to face ehh? Anyways, I think I looked at every 5x114.3 bolt pattern out there before settling on these. You still have to do something about hubcentricity but it's not bad. Caliper fitment and widening such that it won't leak is much harder.
07-30-08, 07:49 PM
#119
That does absolutely NOTHING, what is the point of doing all this and getting everyone hyped up to just let everyone off with a "heres half the info go screw yourselves", jesus.
Either sell a haynes manual like I said or something like you have already seen people reply that they are down for something like that, where you are not liable by any means or Mods close this thread, bs man bs.
Either sell a haynes manual like I said or something like you have already seen people reply that they are down for something like that, where you are not liable by any means or Mods close this thread, bs man bs.
07-30-08, 08:00 PM
#120
the implications matter
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I guess this is the part where I say "you're welcome?"
I'm an engineer so hell yeah, I want to bring something cool I made to light. It's not so simple and no good ol' boy "can't trace me, it's just a manual I sold har har har" crap gets you out of that.
There is no way out of liability... PERIOD. The law is there for a reason and excuse me if I humbly suggest I know more than you do about the topic given my situation. That said, there may still be options for selling the idea and/or research or even starting a company which could spread product liability insurance over a range of things. As such, I'm not sharing the R&D. There may be more to learn or share here so I'd prefer to leave the thread open, but mods can certainly do as they please.
Man and I thought I was being a nice guy... Chill out eh?
I'm an engineer so hell yeah, I want to bring something cool I made to light. It's not so simple and no good ol' boy "can't trace me, it's just a manual I sold har har har" crap gets you out of that.
There is no way out of liability... PERIOD. The law is there for a reason and excuse me if I humbly suggest I know more than you do about the topic given my situation. That said, there may still be options for selling the idea and/or research or even starting a company which could spread product liability insurance over a range of things. As such, I'm not sharing the R&D. There may be more to learn or share here so I'd prefer to leave the thread open, but mods can certainly do as they please.
Man and I thought I was being a nice guy... Chill out eh?
07-30-08, 08:34 PM
#121
First, no, no your welcome because as I clearly stated you didnt DO anything except cause a ruckus and get people hyped up about something that people have wanted since the FC existed, brakes that work a tad bit better but dont cost 2500.00, no, no your welcome.
Second, Engineer, Schmengineer, who actually cares.
2.a. You can't argue the law, sure fine whatever again who cares ? you ? ok why ? because you want to protect yourself from something that you CAN"T protect yourself from, dude do you realize just how many papers and liability agreements you sign when you BUY a car, from the manufacturer, from the state, from everyone under the sun, you agree to put your life at risk period nobody stops that, remember firestone and explorers, did that liability protection keep them from harm HELL no, Ford lost their ASSES that year, fiercely, and testing upon testing upon liability agreements, they mean nothing, as you have already admitted and said. there IS no airtight locktite agreement period.
2.b that being said the only liability agreement between a person and another entity, person or company, is money, period, if you have it they can and will come after you if you don't they can do nothing period, PERIOD. you can get a lawsuit won, settled, won, judged, judgment assigned and down the road and that can all be for ****, because if you win a judgement against a person or company and they can't pay it its irrelevant, secondly in your INFINITE wisdom do you have ANY and I mean ANY clue what it TAKES to sue someone in this day, do you think lawyers are stupid, they don't take pro bono I am going to sue some dumb **** engineer who made a product out of his garage LOL to that LOL I say, did I say LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL ? they would KNOW they aren't going to get paid, hence no deal, moving on to plan b. some REALLLLLLY rich guy is going to sue you ok I got that covered for you, because it costs about 5k to even approach sue level for anything remotely in the realm of what we are talking about, unless you are talking small claims court which litigation of a product cannot be done at that level for this type of situation and still would be a grand to get done, so 5k rich guy is going to sue you for a product you made thats worth 500.00 ? that guy my friend ISNT HERE READING THIS THREAD, that guy HAS the AP/Wilwood/ETC/Shitbox BBK on his car.
The people reading this thread myself included aren't multi-millionaires and by no means have the ability or desire mostly to purchase the BBK's that are a jillion dollars and or therefore hereto and which would not and probably could not under most circumstances sue you, and in the RARE case that some 5k rich guy dumb *** is a miser and saves his money to sue people because he likes to tear up small 500.00 BBK save money kits, then what is he going to get a judgement for ? 10cents ?
Lastly if you sell a manual like i told you and put no link between you and the information theres no posibility you can get taken, now on the OTHER hand, doing what you did in this forum, telling everyone AFTER all this talk of a product to go out and put 350Z rotors on their cars IS liability. I told you, sell a related product but not related to what you are discussing here, stop discussing it and just sell some repair manuals, contact people in private to do "beta" testing for you "at their own risk" or something.
Or crap just keep dangling a carrot flavored **** stick in front of everyone
As a side note I am very relaxed, my language is meant for dramatic effect nothing more.
C
Second, Engineer, Schmengineer, who actually cares.
2.a. You can't argue the law, sure fine whatever again who cares ? you ? ok why ? because you want to protect yourself from something that you CAN"T protect yourself from, dude do you realize just how many papers and liability agreements you sign when you BUY a car, from the manufacturer, from the state, from everyone under the sun, you agree to put your life at risk period nobody stops that, remember firestone and explorers, did that liability protection keep them from harm HELL no, Ford lost their ASSES that year, fiercely, and testing upon testing upon liability agreements, they mean nothing, as you have already admitted and said. there IS no airtight locktite agreement period.
2.b that being said the only liability agreement between a person and another entity, person or company, is money, period, if you have it they can and will come after you if you don't they can do nothing period, PERIOD. you can get a lawsuit won, settled, won, judged, judgment assigned and down the road and that can all be for ****, because if you win a judgement against a person or company and they can't pay it its irrelevant, secondly in your INFINITE wisdom do you have ANY and I mean ANY clue what it TAKES to sue someone in this day, do you think lawyers are stupid, they don't take pro bono I am going to sue some dumb **** engineer who made a product out of his garage LOL to that LOL I say, did I say LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL ? they would KNOW they aren't going to get paid, hence no deal, moving on to plan b. some REALLLLLLY rich guy is going to sue you ok I got that covered for you, because it costs about 5k to even approach sue level for anything remotely in the realm of what we are talking about, unless you are talking small claims court which litigation of a product cannot be done at that level for this type of situation and still would be a grand to get done, so 5k rich guy is going to sue you for a product you made thats worth 500.00 ? that guy my friend ISNT HERE READING THIS THREAD, that guy HAS the AP/Wilwood/ETC/Shitbox BBK on his car.
The people reading this thread myself included aren't multi-millionaires and by no means have the ability or desire mostly to purchase the BBK's that are a jillion dollars and or therefore hereto and which would not and probably could not under most circumstances sue you, and in the RARE case that some 5k rich guy dumb *** is a miser and saves his money to sue people because he likes to tear up small 500.00 BBK save money kits, then what is he going to get a judgement for ? 10cents ?
Lastly if you sell a manual like i told you and put no link between you and the information theres no posibility you can get taken, now on the OTHER hand, doing what you did in this forum, telling everyone AFTER all this talk of a product to go out and put 350Z rotors on their cars IS liability. I told you, sell a related product but not related to what you are discussing here, stop discussing it and just sell some repair manuals, contact people in private to do "beta" testing for you "at their own risk" or something.
Or crap just keep dangling a carrot flavored **** stick in front of everyone
As a side note I am very relaxed, my language is meant for dramatic effect nothing more.
C
07-30-08, 11:05 PM
#122
In The Twisties
I guess this is the part where I say "you're welcome?"
I'm an engineer so hell yeah, I want to bring something cool I made to light. It's not so simple and no good ol' boy "can't trace me, it's just a manual I sold har har har" crap gets you out of that.
There is no way out of liability... PERIOD. The law is there for a reason and excuse me if I humbly suggest I know more than you do about the topic given my situation. That said, there may still be options for selling the idea and/or research or even starting a company which could spread product liability insurance over a range of things. As such, I'm not sharing the R&D. There may be more to learn or share here so I'd prefer to leave the thread open, but mods can certainly do as they please.
Man and I thought I was being a nice guy... Chill out eh?
I'm an engineer so hell yeah, I want to bring something cool I made to light. It's not so simple and no good ol' boy "can't trace me, it's just a manual I sold har har har" crap gets you out of that.
There is no way out of liability... PERIOD. The law is there for a reason and excuse me if I humbly suggest I know more than you do about the topic given my situation. That said, there may still be options for selling the idea and/or research or even starting a company which could spread product liability insurance over a range of things. As such, I'm not sharing the R&D. There may be more to learn or share here so I'd prefer to leave the thread open, but mods can certainly do as they please.
Man and I thought I was being a nice guy... Chill out eh?
07-30-08, 11:45 PM
#123
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wow trust7 went powerhouse on that one...
wtf do i know.... i offered to buy the kit from the dude... i'd buy the damn thing and distribute it for everyone.... this is a sick product right here and i want in...
i'm in for a manual any day...
wtf do i know.... i offered to buy the kit from the dude... i'd buy the damn thing and distribute it for everyone.... this is a sick product right here and i want in...
i'm in for a manual any day...
07-31-08, 12:06 AM
#124
Yeah A. I'll buy it and distribute it no problem, let me see someone try to sue me rofl, I would laugh the entire time, wondering where they got the idea they would get some money out of me rofl. B. E_Dub what you don't understand is, THAT, is no info at all, see there is a bracket or two that makes the entire thing work, period, telling you that there are brake discs that fit 5x114.3 is worthless information, read the entire thread that this all started from and you will see just how much information is out there.
I am starting to wonder if this was really just smoke and mirrors for something that doesn't exist actually, I mean I see some pictures and the like but, never have i run across someone so hell bent on NOT releasing a product with this many people offering help, makes no sense, other than the obvious.
Frijo I wish you were serious, despite many people here, including myself offering help, I would have to say the 900.00 stock caliper widening/rotor purchase option is the best cheapest at this time, or at least it seems.
C