View Poll Results: Would you prefer the caliper be located outward such that it...
results in ~0.090" of pad overhang but is closer to a bolt on operation
8
18.18%
uses the full pad but requires you dremel open the edges of the caliper slot
36
81.82%
Voters: 44. You may not vote on this poll
Mandeville style 4 wheel big brakes for FC - feedback needed
04-07-08, 11:37 AM
#26
the implications matter
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Don't get me wrong, the corksport kit is definitely a viable option in the rear. I'm planning to offer this as a complete kit or front/rear separately so you can decide what's important to you. I'm not even 100% sure the thicker (by 2 mm) is going to work out but I'm seeing the test case through to find out.
I'm still planning to do an FEA study to prove out the fatigue life of the both my kit and the Mazda pieces I modified.
UPDATE:
I got the rear brackets back from post machining Friday and spend some time fitting things up over the weekend. I should have the car drivable in the next couple days so I can report back on clearance with the thicker rotors.
Pics
Opening up the rear caliper. 1/16” removal targeted
Dremel tips used.
End result
Hubcentric rings installed to match the Mazda hub
Full pad usage confirmed
Checking clearances, the offset lands just about perfect.
I matched the amount of clearance on the tight spot at the knuckle so I should be equally likely to rub here as in the caliper with the wider rotor. In all cases it’s about 1mm clear. This is one of those things I need to test out as I’m still not 100% sold on the rear rotors.
Rear brackets installed.
Rear all bolted up
I'm still planning to do an FEA study to prove out the fatigue life of the both my kit and the Mazda pieces I modified.
UPDATE:
I got the rear brackets back from post machining Friday and spend some time fitting things up over the weekend. I should have the car drivable in the next couple days so I can report back on clearance with the thicker rotors.
Pics
Opening up the rear caliper. 1/16” removal targeted
Dremel tips used.
End result
Hubcentric rings installed to match the Mazda hub
Full pad usage confirmed
Checking clearances, the offset lands just about perfect.
I matched the amount of clearance on the tight spot at the knuckle so I should be equally likely to rub here as in the caliper with the wider rotor. In all cases it’s about 1mm clear. This is one of those things I need to test out as I’m still not 100% sold on the rear rotors.
Rear brackets installed.
Rear all bolted up
04-07-08, 11:37 AM
#27
the implications matter
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Moving on to the fronts:
Front caliper widening spacers finished
I designed the spacers with the intent to give you a guide how much to grind
Full pad usage is quite a bit harder to do up front so this is only part of the way done… I really need to throw down for a corded dremel because I’m using one of these battery powered units and it keeps dying on me. This is a pretty slow process but I don’t want to do it twice so I’m being careful and going taking my time.
Front bracket test fit. I’m still waiting on the keyed inserts so there’s a bit more work to do here. The rotor pushes the front calipers outward toward the wheel spokes so the stock dust shield can be maintained.
Still to do…
-Finish installing mine
-Finish the other two test kits
-Testing, both street and track
-Finish FEA study to confirm fatigue life
-Create wheel fitment templates
-Formalize Limited Liability Company so I can start a real production run
Front caliper widening spacers finished
I designed the spacers with the intent to give you a guide how much to grind
Full pad usage is quite a bit harder to do up front so this is only part of the way done… I really need to throw down for a corded dremel because I’m using one of these battery powered units and it keeps dying on me. This is a pretty slow process but I don’t want to do it twice so I’m being careful and going taking my time.
Front bracket test fit. I’m still waiting on the keyed inserts so there’s a bit more work to do here. The rotor pushes the front calipers outward toward the wheel spokes so the stock dust shield can be maintained.
Still to do…
-Finish installing mine
-Finish the other two test kits
-Testing, both street and track
-Finish FEA study to confirm fatigue life
-Create wheel fitment templates
-Formalize Limited Liability Company so I can start a real production run
Last edited by frijolee; 04-07-08 at 11:47 AM.
04-18-08, 08:01 PM
#29
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Excellent work.
Questions:
I know you didn't want to reveal the rotors until you kit is complete, but can you say if people will be able to find them in 2-piece variety easily?
Are the hub rings you're using metal? I take it you plan on including them in your kit, yes?
If one were so inclined, would they be able to use an FD caliper, given that they have a much more modern look (if they used a Mandeville FD caliper widener, or you could make one too...)
Questions:
I know you didn't want to reveal the rotors until you kit is complete, but can you say if people will be able to find them in 2-piece variety easily?
Are the hub rings you're using metal? I take it you plan on including them in your kit, yes?
If one were so inclined, would they be able to use an FD caliper, given that they have a much more modern look (if they used a Mandeville FD caliper widener, or you could make one too...)
04-21-08, 03:38 PM
#35
the implications matter
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Quick update: I would have had the car up and running over the weekend except I missed the closing deadline of the metric speciality store on Friday that I was buying bridge bolts from. Turns out a regular hex head bolt runs a little too tight to the caliper to allow you to get a full socket wrench on. I ended up deciding to run a flange head bolt like factory even though they cost more. The problem then became that it's damn hard to find a flange head in the correct length/pitch/diameter if you also want it to be grade 10.9 and zinc plated to prevent corrosion.
Yes rotors are easily available. That won't be a problem at all... I'm pretty confident I've looked at rotors from every 5x114.3 car that was released in the US in about the last 20 years...
I'm almost there guys, then I'll spill all. The hardest part of this project is turning out to be liability protection because even though most enthusiasts are stand up folks that doesn't mean I won't get sued by a vindictive mother in law if you wrap yourself around a tree for some reason other than a brake failure.
I'm confident in the design but the fact remains that I'm planning on giving instructions on how to modify your own calipers and that takes some of the control out of my hands.
The piston bores are the same between FC and FD bits and there are no other pressure limiting devices so there's no reason (beyond mounting diffculties) that you can't switch between generations. However, this is going to be a LOT more brake than FD's came with so there's really no reason to go to the effort.
Yes rotors are easily available. That won't be a problem at all... I'm pretty confident I've looked at rotors from every 5x114.3 car that was released in the US in about the last 20 years...
I'm almost there guys, then I'll spill all. The hardest part of this project is turning out to be liability protection because even though most enthusiasts are stand up folks that doesn't mean I won't get sued by a vindictive mother in law if you wrap yourself around a tree for some reason other than a brake failure.
I'm confident in the design but the fact remains that I'm planning on giving instructions on how to modify your own calipers and that takes some of the control out of my hands.
The piston bores are the same between FC and FD bits and there are no other pressure limiting devices so there's no reason (beyond mounting diffculties) that you can't switch between generations. However, this is going to be a LOT more brake than FD's came with so there's really no reason to go to the effort.
Last edited by frijolee; 04-21-08 at 03:47 PM.
04-21-08, 08:17 PM
#36
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The piston bores are the same between FC and FD bits and there are no other pressure limiting devices so there's no reason (beyond mounting difficulties) that you can't switch between generations. However, this is going to be a LOT more brake than FD's came with so there's really no reason to go to the effort.
04-22-08, 07:24 PM
#39
Lives on the Forum
Come on, what's not cool about cooling fins? They've got cool in their name for crying out loud!
Whatever floats your boat I guess. I'd be quite interested to see what, if any weight difference there is between them. Now THAT would be a reasonable thing upon which to descriminate against one or the other.
Whatever floats your boat I guess. I'd be quite interested to see what, if any weight difference there is between them. Now THAT would be a reasonable thing upon which to descriminate against one or the other.
04-23-08, 03:31 PM
#41
the implications matter
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Glad to see more folks getting excited besides me...
I got everything bolted together last night but I ran out of time before I could bleed it. Looks like the first drive will have to wait for this weekend.
I got everything bolted together last night but I ran out of time before I could bleed it. Looks like the first drive will have to wait for this weekend.
04-23-08, 07:41 PM
#43
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OK, here's where we're at:
Kit will consist of:
FRONT:
-Front brackets 6061-t6 Al (locate caliper in both radial distance and offset)
-Front spacers to widen the calipers (you'll get to trim the edges of the rotor slot to match this.)
-O-rings to maintain oil passages
-Longer caliper bridge bolts
-Caliper mounting hardware
-Drawings on what you have to machine to match rotor to hub.
REAR:
-caliper relocation bracket again 6061-t6 Al (which is more complex than the fronts)
-caliper mounting hardware
-2x hub centric rings to index off the rotor
-drawings on what you have to machine to remove drum e-brake portion of the rotor and to open up the index to match the hubcentric ring.
I'm supposed to get the first three sets of brackets back from cutting the perimeter shape today. I already have my test rotors machined. I already have myself set up as a wholesale distributor of the hub centric rings I need.
Still to do: I need to get the brackets post machined. I need to do some testing to see whether I need steel inserts on threaded areas. I need to pressure test the system to be sure the 0-ring compression and surface finishes are correct to prevent leakage. I need to complete the FEA analysis to be sure this will live in long term usage because aluminum gets tricky in fatigue. I need to finish bolt calcs on torque specs. I need to create wheel fitment templates so you can check these against your own wheels.
I need to finalize pricing (once I know cost on post machining I'll have a better idea on this). I think I need about a week before I start talking hard numbers and probably a month before I'm taking orders.
One of the big reasons for the delay is that I still need to set myself up as a limited liability company to cover myself in case someone wrecks while using these. It'll come with detailed instructions on what to do and not to do but these are brakes we're talking about here and I'm leaving some modifications in the hands of users so I'm trying to be careful.
Kit will consist of:
FRONT:
-Front brackets 6061-t6 Al (locate caliper in both radial distance and offset)
-Front spacers to widen the calipers (you'll get to trim the edges of the rotor slot to match this.)
-O-rings to maintain oil passages
-Longer caliper bridge bolts
-Caliper mounting hardware
-Drawings on what you have to machine to match rotor to hub.
REAR:
-caliper relocation bracket again 6061-t6 Al (which is more complex than the fronts)
-caliper mounting hardware
-2x hub centric rings to index off the rotor
-drawings on what you have to machine to remove drum e-brake portion of the rotor and to open up the index to match the hubcentric ring.
I'm supposed to get the first three sets of brackets back from cutting the perimeter shape today. I already have my test rotors machined. I already have myself set up as a wholesale distributor of the hub centric rings I need.
Still to do: I need to get the brackets post machined. I need to do some testing to see whether I need steel inserts on threaded areas. I need to pressure test the system to be sure the 0-ring compression and surface finishes are correct to prevent leakage. I need to complete the FEA analysis to be sure this will live in long term usage because aluminum gets tricky in fatigue. I need to finish bolt calcs on torque specs. I need to create wheel fitment templates so you can check these against your own wheels.
I need to finalize pricing (once I know cost on post machining I'll have a better idea on this). I think I need about a week before I start talking hard numbers and probably a month before I'm taking orders.
One of the big reasons for the delay is that I still need to set myself up as a limited liability company to cover myself in case someone wrecks while using these. It'll come with detailed instructions on what to do and not to do but these are brakes we're talking about here and I'm leaving some modifications in the hands of users so I'm trying to be careful.
04-25-08, 11:55 AM
#45
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The stock ones hang out the backside a decent ways so there's enough meat left to counterbore the head ~5 mm into the face of the caliper and you're golden.
04-30-08, 12:03 AM
#47
the implications matter
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I shaved down the heads by just a couple thou so I could use a 5/16." If and when this goes to market as a legit product offering you better believe it would come with a serious set of install instructions. I'm a pretty methodical guy and I hope anyone contemplating doing some brake mods of this caliber would lean that way as well.
And now... (drumroll).
It's official, my car finally has the brakes I always wished it would...
I did about 10 blasts to LA freeway speeds on and off of on-ramps braking at the point of impending lockup with no drama at all. No vibration, no rubbing, the power feels great, they're just plain kick *** brakes...
My math says brake bias should have shifted 0.5% to the rear and that wasn't an issue either. I'm running sticky street tires in a 255 up front and it would put you into the restraints hard enough to make your breathe funny but at the limit the front still definitely gave up before the rear (like it's supposed to).
So what's this mean for the project as a whole and the potential for offering these to the public? I should warn you that it's not quite a done deal yet. Yes, these rule but product liability protection really sucks. You can set up an LLC but it's not foolproof protection because the law can rule an LLC to really be an alter ego of an individual. Product liability insurance will run me about $4 grand a year if I want an average million dollar policy. Obviously they'd come with some pretty stiff disclaimers about use at your own risk, but again that only goes so far.
Anyone have access to business legal counsel they feel like tossing my way pro-bono?
The brakes are really everything I hoped for... Now I need to do a bit more analysis and research on where we go from here.
-Joel
And now... (drumroll).
It's official, my car finally has the brakes I always wished it would...
I did about 10 blasts to LA freeway speeds on and off of on-ramps braking at the point of impending lockup with no drama at all. No vibration, no rubbing, the power feels great, they're just plain kick *** brakes...
My math says brake bias should have shifted 0.5% to the rear and that wasn't an issue either. I'm running sticky street tires in a 255 up front and it would put you into the restraints hard enough to make your breathe funny but at the limit the front still definitely gave up before the rear (like it's supposed to).
So what's this mean for the project as a whole and the potential for offering these to the public? I should warn you that it's not quite a done deal yet. Yes, these rule but product liability protection really sucks. You can set up an LLC but it's not foolproof protection because the law can rule an LLC to really be an alter ego of an individual. Product liability insurance will run me about $4 grand a year if I want an average million dollar policy. Obviously they'd come with some pretty stiff disclaimers about use at your own risk, but again that only goes so far.
Anyone have access to business legal counsel they feel like tossing my way pro-bono?
The brakes are really everything I hoped for... Now I need to do a bit more analysis and research on where we go from here.
-Joel
05-02-08, 10:09 AM
#48
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They look awesome. Is there any sort of disclaimer that your legal counsel could conjure up in order to protect you further. I would gladly sign. Logic, my experience, and my studies tell me that this is sound. I am sure that the use of a
legally binding waiver/disclaimer, would absolve you from any litigiousness.
legally binding waiver/disclaimer, would absolve you from any litigiousness.
05-02-08, 10:13 AM
#49
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05-02-08, 10:52 AM
#50
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I'm working on the disclaimer/waiver because full-on product liability insurance basically makes this project a non-starter.
255's is a function of fenders more than brakes. I'm running the Shine/Foresight fenders... They're not as wide as the +30 mm advertized but 255's still fit with no rubbing if you're careful with the offset.
Links for my install and fitting fender linings attached for reference if you want the details.
255's is a function of fenders more than brakes. I'm running the Shine/Foresight fenders... They're not as wide as the +30 mm advertized but 255's still fit with no rubbing if you're careful with the offset.
Links for my install and fitting fender linings attached for reference if you want the details.