ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

Maybe I'll try 'em then. Are they cheap? Do they seriously kick @$$ like a PFC 01?

hyperion

iTrader: (2)

They're reasonable. RB sells them for about $190 for a set of fronts. Huge stopping power, stable, good modulation and release, and seem durable enough to go 5-10 days before replacement. This on a 3100lb car (me + car), 430 RWHP, and DOT R tires.

Let me say that my tests have been at Infineon and Laguna. The latter is tough on brakes, but it's not a high-speed track. I've yet to test these repeatedly above 130 MPH.

But if you have a setup that can run PFC, I'd say stick with them. The 'vette guys swear by them and they have more weight and HP than me and run similar lap times. For the RB setup, however, it seems like Hawk are the way to go--though no one has actually tried the PFCs yet. (Any takers? I've done enough development testing, thanks.)

-ch

Scrub

iTrader: (25)

Thank you very much...and does Axxis offer a front pad as well for the RB calipers? If they do what's the part number?

-Dan

gnx7

iTrader: (10)

Hyperion- when are you and RealWolf going to the track next to test the brakes further? You mentioned end of February.

Rick- please go so that we have additional testing data

hyperion

iTrader: (2)

I'm at Laguna on the 28th testing the following:

1) replacement RF rotor
2) upgraded oil pan baffle
3) Racelogic traction control (if I can get the bugs worked out first)

I'm also hoping Rick can make it as our slightly different rotor setups--a 'hand finished' versus off-the-shelf rotor--should give us definitive data on some lingering unknowns about the RB setup.

My PSCups have quite a few heat cycles so they are a bit of a limiting factor, but I expect to lap in the low 1:40's assuming a dry day.

After the tear down I'll post what I learn here.

-ch

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

I dunno, I don't have RB's... but if you have the pad shape number, Axxis or an axxis dealer should be able to check it.

Julian

iTrader: (14)

any update on JDM 99 spec 2 piece rotors?

gracer7-rx7

iTrader: (16)

they are not making them.

wthx100

What "bugs" are you having with your racelogic?

hyperion

iTrader: (2)

I had major noise in the ABS signals and I couldn't get the TCU to pick up an RPM signal. After a frustrating week of re-re-re-rerouting every wire imaginable, I pressed for a replacement TCU. Plugged it in, fired it up, and it works. All features.

Very cool.

-ch

dclin

iTrader: (4)

I've been meaning to post; think a solution for the spare tire is to use a wheel spacer, like the Kics that Autornd/Rishie sells, and keep the original alumium spare:

http://www.autornd.com/catalog/produ...f8ec513204e110

A wild guess is that the 25mm would work. It is one extra step should you have to mount the spare (bolt the spacer to the hub, then bolt the spare to the spacer), but I've never have had to use the spare to date (knock on wood), and not something we shouldn't have to deal with but more than a few times over the course of owning the FD.

I had thought about the 3000GT VR4 spare (same centerbore size, and they are notorious for large brakes), but a seller claimed that it was over 30lbs. It is steel, vs the cast aluminum FD spare.

Could set up a GB with Rishie, then split the sets since we all only need one each (regular price is $110 for a pair).

GoodfellaFD3S

iTrader: (213)

I knew the VR4s were pigs, but their spare weighs as much as two standard FD wheels? yikes.

gracer7-rx7

iTrader: (16)

Way to think outside the box! Is Rishie able to test this out on his end?

dclin

iTrader: (4)

I PMed Rishie; this could potentially be a solution for all BBK owners, so maybe we can get a good GB going.

I have Version 2 of the Racing Brake BBK, which should have less spoke clearance than Version 1. I can test fit for the V2 owners; I also have the rear brakes, which have not seen any revisions AFAIK. Probably should test on V1 kits as well to be 100% sure of fitment.

gracer7-rx7

iTrader: (16)

Personally, I don't even care about the front brake. If I get a flat up front, I can always put one of the rear rims on the front and the spare on the rear.

ARD T2

iTrader: (22)

If you guys want to get a spacer pair for your Spare that's no problem.

In fact if you want 25mm then i'd say get the Ichiba ones cause it's much more affordable and readily available.

I get a good discount on those.

Go ahead and PM me. I'll get you all priced out. As for testing I don't own a FD but am open to helping test this out.

Rishie

dclin

iTrader: (4)

Thanks Rishie; I think the biggest issue is that we all only need one spacer. Do you think you could facilitate this for us (split the sets)? A structured GD, or would you rather do it on an individual basis?

The Ichiba's look good; is already centerbore correct (no need to buy hubcentric rings like the Kics)

http://www.ichibausa.com/25alwhsp7.html

In any case, I can buy a spacer now to test for the group before we get rolling.

Thanks!

hyperion

iTrader: (2)

As some of you know, I've been putting the Racing Brake 4-wheel kit through the paces at some tracks here in California. I've just run my fifth test, so I'm ready to give some more concrete feedback. I'm going to summarize things in this post so that it's all in one place.

I'm only discussing track-related tests here.

My car is a 2940lb (fully dressed with fuel) LS1 FD with 430 RWHP. I run 285-series DOT R tyres (Michelin Pilot Sport Cups) on 18x10 CCW wheels. The car is quick. It has a full interior, PS, AC, iPod, etc.

-= First Test - Laguna =-

I was running the Racing Brake ET500 pads, mostly due to the web site's characterization that they were 'like Hawk Blues'. They weren't and I completely fried them in short order.

-= Second Test - Laguna =-

Still trying out RB pads, I ran ET900 pads. These were better, but didn't have good modulation. The compound also showed signs of delamination. The rotors were badly grooved and needed to be replaced. See here for a detailed report: https://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php...postcount=1154

-= Third Test - Infineon =-

I decided to bail on the RB pads and go with Hawk. I chose the most aggressive pads for the front (DTC-70) and the HT-10 in the rear as it's the only true race pad that Hawk makes in that pad shape. I ran slowly at first, building speed throughout the day. I also learned that tapping up was necessary to get the most immediate engagement. (This is probably due to upright flex and not the RB caliper/rotor design.)

The performance was very, very good, and I did not experience fade. There was no appreciable rotor wear. Pads were about 4% down all the way around. More dust in the rear than the front--the DTC and HT compounds are very different. But the bias is good; stable but you can use trail braking to rotate the car into turns.

-= Fourth Test - Laguna =-

Again, excellent performance. I was able to keep up with the fastest cars on track. Pads were down to about 80% in the front and 92% in the rear. However, I did have a non-catastrophic rotor failure on the right front wheel. Those who are actively tracking their cars should always inspect their cars carefully after events. In my case, a crack appeared the rotor at the junction of one of the mounting tabs. RB replaced the rotor. I decided to test the new rotor at Laguna in a similar manner at the next test.

I want to be very clear about this: I find the idea of a rotor cracking in this manner unacceptable. However, I do not believe that it is a safety issue. The crack did not propagate after the initial discovery. And even if it had, the rotor faces are held together with the cooling vanes. In my non-expert opinion, this defect would not have led to a major braking failure. But it still indicates one (or more) of the following:

a) The rotor does not have the thermal capacity to handle what I was doing
b) There is a design flaw in the rotor that creates thermal stress risers
c) There is a process problem with the fabrication (casting and machining) of the rotor
d) There was a quality control problem

I honestly don't know, which is why I got a replacement rotor with the intention of testing it again in similar circumstances.

I also began to notice some pronounced tapering in the front pads. The inboard pads tended to taper from leading to trailing edge (evidence of a less-than perfect piston stagger) up to 0.060" while the outboard pads tended to taper top-to-bottom (consistent with caliper flex) as much as 0.020". Neither of these had any noticeable affect on performance.

I also did a lot of temperature testing which I published here:

https://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php...postcount=1215

The conclusion was that the kit had sufficient thermal capacity when paired with true racing pads on the front calipers.

-= Fifth Test - Laguna =-

Based on some feedback from the ZO6 crowd (who are a good benchmark for my car) I decided to swap the inboard and outboard pads on the front calipers to try to even out some of the taper. This worked in some sense; the leading/trailing taper was much less, but the top-to-bottom taper was just transfered from one pad to the other. But again, the on-track performance did not seem to be affected. Based on this, I will probably swap the inboard/outboard pads between track days to maximize pad life.

I inspected the replaced rotor and it did not show any signs of cracking. I was about three seconds off my pace from the previous test, but I am still encouraged with this result and have more confidence in the overall package.

To give you an idea of the pace, I was running consistently in the 1:47s at this event. At the previous one, I was solidly in the 1:44s. The car (on new tyres) is capable of a sub-1:40 lap, but that would be at race/qualifying pace.

By the end of the day the pads were down to about 71% in the front and 90% in the rear.

-= Conclusions =-

A theme that is often repeated by the Racing Brake team is that this kit is 'good value for money'. After a long and sometimes frustrating process, I think that's open to some debate. There is no doubt in my mind that the RB rear brake kit is the best available option out there. Fits perfect, works well, is better than the 99/RZ solution, and is less expensive.

The front brakes are another matter. The current price for a front-axle kit is $2,180 to $2,380. That's a lot less than a kit based on AP or Brembo ($3,000+) but it's very similar to a StopTech kit ($2,195 to $2,495) which comes from a race-proven brand. I tend to think that the StopTech is a beefier and stiffer caliper than the RB440, but I don't have any back-to-back data to justify this claim.

Sources:
http://www.racingbrake.com/RX7_s/3286.htm
http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?fo...action=product
http://www.zeckhausen.com/Mazda/RX-7_Gen3.htm

The downside of the StopTech setup is that the rotor is designed to be used with a ducting system. I fear that an un-ducted StopTech kit would have thermal capacity issues. Since I want to avoid running ducts on a street car (noisy, fragile, fills up with leaves/bugs and just one more thing to go wrong), I'm not sure the StopTech is an option for me. And if I did want it, the ducts and backing plates are another $200-$400 of cost. And it's also worth pointing out that the StopTechs suffer from pad knockback just like the RB which, as I noted above, is probably an issue with the Mazda upright and not the brakes.

I've been asked, "If you could do it again, would you go StopTech". My answer is: if someone can do with the StopTech kit what I've done with the RB kit, AND it showed:

* equivalent performance
* better pad wear
* no rotor issues

then I would consider it. But without that data, I feel like I'd be trading up for the unknown. Unless I start to get repeated rotor failures, this kit is an pretty good dual-purpose solution that does not require ducting to survive at competitive track speeds.

But back to the RB setup. In terms of wear, things look very good. Based on my experience I believe that I could get 5-8 track days out of a set of front pads and an entire season or more out of the rear pads. The rotors are wearing very, very gradually and will last at least a season.

So, the Cliff Notes Version:

* Love the rear kit and highly recommend it
* Front kit is not perfect; some rotor issues, but overall it's looking pretty good
* Do not use RB pads on the track; go with Hawk racing pads
* Wear looks very good
* Carefully inspect your car before and after track events--your life depends on it

I hope this helps anyone who is currently considering a brake upgrade.

-ch

OC94Rx7

Very useful information with real world data, Thanks for sharing it with us.

//Oliver

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

do you run ABS?
if so do you ever get into it?
what is your sense of the longitudinal brake bias?

thanks for a very helpful post.

howard

hyperion

iTrader: (2)

I have the factory ABS.

At the track most people experience ABS when they are initially braking, i.e. before the weight transfer to the front is complete. Smooth (but still quick) application of the brake pedal eliminates this. I sometimes get a single wheel lock up towards the end of the braking zone, but at my 80-90% pace I'm usually not at the threshold. The car will brake at well over 1G but you can see from the traces that I'm not quite at that limit.

I think the bias is quite good--I can still rotate the car with trail braking but it is not unstable. For instance, I can brake over the brow into the corkscrew and the car does not get out of shape.

-ch

cabaynes

iTrader: (4)

Which pads do you run on the street?

hyperion

iTrader: (2)

I am running Hawk HPS. I haven't tested them aggressively yet as I don't really like to drive that quickly on public roads. When I feel like I've given them a good workout I'll post my impressions here.

-ch

gracer7-rx7

iTrader: (16)

I also run the Hawk HPS on the street and for autox with the RB kit and have been very satisfied with the performance in that venue.

I have my first track day with the RB brakes at the end of March and will be running Hawk HT10 front and rear if circumstances permit.

fwiw, I was looking at my old track pads from my 99 spec brakes and noticed some taper (difference in thickness) from top to bottom of a set of my old front pads.

Thanks very much for sharing your results Chris! I'll be up in Napa next weekend and if I didn't have family with me, I'd take you out for a drink or two for your efforts.

Julian

iTrader: (14)

Thanks for the sharing and great right up!