FD New Brake Options
Testing Report
Testing update – RB 4-wheel kit
I ran a new configuration of the RB kit at Infineon today. This follows a test at Laguna Seca last week. This post is a report from both days. I ran different pad setups at each event. I ran about 8/10ths, track permitting.
For those playing along at home, my setup is:
430 RWHP (FD-LS1) on 18x10 Michelin Pilot Sport Cups
Laguna:
• Car: 3100 lbs, ET900 pads front/rear
• Track: mostly dry, 75F, 2.238 miles
• Hot laps run: 10
• Braking zones: 105-40 (2), 95-55 (5) 80-40 (7a), 80-35 (11)
• Peak decel: 1.25 G
• Fast production car lap time: under 1:50
Infineon:
• Car: 3300 lbs (I had a passenger), Hawk DTC-70 front / Hawk HT-10 rear
• Track: wet for 1.5 sessions, 65F, 2.52 miles
• Hot laps run: 31
• Braking zones: 80-45 (4) 90-60 (5), 110-40 (7), 110-40 (11)
• Peak decel: 1.3 G
• Fast production car lap time: under 2:00
All of my data acquisition was done using the Traqmate GPS system. I was focusing my driving on braking and not on lap times. I’ve turned faster laps on the stock brake system, but I was trying to be consistent in the braking zones and check pedal feel, initial bite, modulation, and release. I bedded the brakes in the manner described on RB’s website for motorsports pads.
Let’s break down each test day.
Laguna
Qualitative: the ET900’s had excellent bite. Very little pedal effort was necessary to engage, and the brakes could be locked at any speed. I didn’t run enough laps to really test fade, but I felt like the pads were starting to lose some of their stopping power by the 5th lap. The pads were somewhat binary; modulation was a challenge, and the release was somewhat clumsy. The pads were very quiet, even on the drive to and from the track. The front/rear balance was very good and the car was stable under braking. After only a few hot laps the pads looked worn. Inspection showed cracks in the pad material near the backing plate:
The thickness of the ash on the pad suggests that I may have exceeded the operating temperature.
Quantitative: the front rotors wore about 0.007” total and had significant pad deposits which had started to create a channeled/grooved surface. There was substantial thickness variation that could be felt on the surface. The rear rotors wore about 0.003” total and also had grooving, but less severe than the front. The front pads wore an average of 0.065” with some taper. This is about 15% of the pad depth. The rears wore an average of 0.050” with some taper and a bias towards the inboard pad which wore about 0.020” more than the outboard pad. (The inboard bias is typical of the Mazda rear caliper.)
Overall: while the ET900’s developed some serious stopping power, I do not believe they would last more than a weekend, possibly even less at some tracks. The wear rate was substantial after only a few laps. The cracking in the friction material was worrisome. The grooving of the rotor surface makes it difficult to use in a street/track setting where pads are changed as the street pads would have to ‘re-groove’ every time they are replaced following a track session. Also, the wear rate of the rotors suggests that even if the grooving was acceptable they would wear 2mm of thickness (0.079”) in only about 150 laps, or about 3-4 track days.
Verdict: The combination of the RB kit and the ET900 did not deliver the results I was hoping.
Now, on to Infineon. The ET900 pads are swapped out for Hawk DTC-70/HT-10. (I chose HT-10 for the rear as it's the only racing pad Hawk offers. RB has said it will be possible to make other Hawk compounds for the rear in small quantities.) New rotors were used on the front, but not the rear. (I hoped that the lighter grooving in the rear would be less of a problem.) The car was run at a slightly quicker pace than at Laguna, and over three times the mileage was covered. The braking zones at Infineon are a bit harder as well, and I was running an extra 200lbs (passenger) for all my sessions.
Qualitative: like the ET900’s the Hawk’s had excellent initial bite. Even after a few sessions, the Hawk’s are much louder than the ET900’s. You can really hear them working. There is a vibration/hum when the brakes are applied. They are even louder in the paddock and on the road. I had serious squeaks, squeals, and groans every time I came to a stop on city streets! I was unable to get the brakes to fade even after 10 laps at an 8/10ths pace. The car was definitely front-biased, so the DTC-70’s were doing a lot of the work. They were much easier to modulate, and the release more graceful. The pads did not look that worn after 30+ hot laps—in fact, I’m not entirely sure I managed to get them up to the top end of their operating temperature.
You can see that the paint hasn't even been baked off of parts of the friction surface. It may be possible that the DTC-60 is a better compound for the lighter FDs out there. On the to-do list is to have a set of DTC-70 or DTC-60 made up for the rear of the car as the HT-10's seemed to be down on torque and push the bias up front too much.
Quantitative: the front rotors wore about 0.001” total and had a very smooth surface. There was light streaking after the slots, but there were no serious grooves in the rotor. The rear rotors also wore 0.001” and the grooving from before did not worsen, and may have improved slightly. The front pads wore an average of 0.018” with acceptable taper. The rears wore an average of 0.010” with very slight taper and a bias towards the outside pad which I can’t explain, but it was marginal at 0.005”. Based on the wear I would estimate that this setup would last a good part of a season or more.
New Issue: because the braking system was working better at Infineon, I was able to push a bit harder. It was then that I noticed that the braking had become less consistent from Laguna to Infineon. The pedal throw would vary from corner to corner. After some experimentation I could get consistency by just tapping (not pumping) the brake pedal lightly before the braking point. Also, the pad throw got longer after the 2-3-3a section and the ‘esses’ (8-8a-9) which are switchbacks that don’t really exist at Laguna. I believe that the flexing of the spindle/upright is causing the rotor to knock the pistons back into the bores. This is not a design flaw of the RB kit; indeed, the StopTech kit has the same issue. The latter company offers anti-knockback springs to help keep the pad in contact with the rotor at the cost of additional noise and dust. It should be possible to retrofit the RB kit with similar springs. However, if you know what to look for you can drive around this issue by tapping the brake pedal with your left foot just before you get off the accelerator for the braking point.
Overall: The combination of the RB kit and the Hawk pads performed very well. The excess noise was a bit unsettling, but not totally abnormal. (I think it would have been better if I had started with new rear rotors, as they made most of the noise.) The wear rates were very good and the braking performance was excellent. I’m not sure I pushed this setup to the limit; my tires on not full racing slicks and have about 6 track days on them. That said, compared to the ET900’s the Hawk pads are a huge improvement.
Verdict: if you are tracking your car, I would strongly recommend the Hawk pads over the RB pads.
Now, I still have yet to get my ‘street’ setup to an acceptable level of performance. I’m on my second set of ET500’s and the initial bite is very, very poor. It’s really hard to get the tires to lock. For comparison I switched back to the stock front brakes and the difference was dramatic. I need to try some Hawk HPS or HP+ pads to see if this helps the issue.
I am testing the same Hawk racing pads again in December at Laguna.
Also, there are a few other people out there who have tested various configurations of the RB kit with both RB and non-RB pads. I'm hoping that we'll get a chance to hear their experiences as well.
-ch
I ran a new configuration of the RB kit at Infineon today. This follows a test at Laguna Seca last week. This post is a report from both days. I ran different pad setups at each event. I ran about 8/10ths, track permitting.
For those playing along at home, my setup is:
430 RWHP (FD-LS1) on 18x10 Michelin Pilot Sport Cups
Laguna:
• Car: 3100 lbs, ET900 pads front/rear
• Track: mostly dry, 75F, 2.238 miles
• Hot laps run: 10
• Braking zones: 105-40 (2), 95-55 (5) 80-40 (7a), 80-35 (11)
• Peak decel: 1.25 G
• Fast production car lap time: under 1:50
Infineon:
• Car: 3300 lbs (I had a passenger), Hawk DTC-70 front / Hawk HT-10 rear
• Track: wet for 1.5 sessions, 65F, 2.52 miles
• Hot laps run: 31
• Braking zones: 80-45 (4) 90-60 (5), 110-40 (7), 110-40 (11)
• Peak decel: 1.3 G
• Fast production car lap time: under 2:00
All of my data acquisition was done using the Traqmate GPS system. I was focusing my driving on braking and not on lap times. I’ve turned faster laps on the stock brake system, but I was trying to be consistent in the braking zones and check pedal feel, initial bite, modulation, and release. I bedded the brakes in the manner described on RB’s website for motorsports pads.
Let’s break down each test day.
Laguna
Qualitative: the ET900’s had excellent bite. Very little pedal effort was necessary to engage, and the brakes could be locked at any speed. I didn’t run enough laps to really test fade, but I felt like the pads were starting to lose some of their stopping power by the 5th lap. The pads were somewhat binary; modulation was a challenge, and the release was somewhat clumsy. The pads were very quiet, even on the drive to and from the track. The front/rear balance was very good and the car was stable under braking. After only a few hot laps the pads looked worn. Inspection showed cracks in the pad material near the backing plate:
The thickness of the ash on the pad suggests that I may have exceeded the operating temperature.
Quantitative: the front rotors wore about 0.007” total and had significant pad deposits which had started to create a channeled/grooved surface. There was substantial thickness variation that could be felt on the surface. The rear rotors wore about 0.003” total and also had grooving, but less severe than the front. The front pads wore an average of 0.065” with some taper. This is about 15% of the pad depth. The rears wore an average of 0.050” with some taper and a bias towards the inboard pad which wore about 0.020” more than the outboard pad. (The inboard bias is typical of the Mazda rear caliper.)
Overall: while the ET900’s developed some serious stopping power, I do not believe they would last more than a weekend, possibly even less at some tracks. The wear rate was substantial after only a few laps. The cracking in the friction material was worrisome. The grooving of the rotor surface makes it difficult to use in a street/track setting where pads are changed as the street pads would have to ‘re-groove’ every time they are replaced following a track session. Also, the wear rate of the rotors suggests that even if the grooving was acceptable they would wear 2mm of thickness (0.079”) in only about 150 laps, or about 3-4 track days.
Verdict: The combination of the RB kit and the ET900 did not deliver the results I was hoping.
Now, on to Infineon. The ET900 pads are swapped out for Hawk DTC-70/HT-10. (I chose HT-10 for the rear as it's the only racing pad Hawk offers. RB has said it will be possible to make other Hawk compounds for the rear in small quantities.) New rotors were used on the front, but not the rear. (I hoped that the lighter grooving in the rear would be less of a problem.) The car was run at a slightly quicker pace than at Laguna, and over three times the mileage was covered. The braking zones at Infineon are a bit harder as well, and I was running an extra 200lbs (passenger) for all my sessions.
Qualitative: like the ET900’s the Hawk’s had excellent initial bite. Even after a few sessions, the Hawk’s are much louder than the ET900’s. You can really hear them working. There is a vibration/hum when the brakes are applied. They are even louder in the paddock and on the road. I had serious squeaks, squeals, and groans every time I came to a stop on city streets! I was unable to get the brakes to fade even after 10 laps at an 8/10ths pace. The car was definitely front-biased, so the DTC-70’s were doing a lot of the work. They were much easier to modulate, and the release more graceful. The pads did not look that worn after 30+ hot laps—in fact, I’m not entirely sure I managed to get them up to the top end of their operating temperature.
You can see that the paint hasn't even been baked off of parts of the friction surface. It may be possible that the DTC-60 is a better compound for the lighter FDs out there. On the to-do list is to have a set of DTC-70 or DTC-60 made up for the rear of the car as the HT-10's seemed to be down on torque and push the bias up front too much.
Quantitative: the front rotors wore about 0.001” total and had a very smooth surface. There was light streaking after the slots, but there were no serious grooves in the rotor. The rear rotors also wore 0.001” and the grooving from before did not worsen, and may have improved slightly. The front pads wore an average of 0.018” with acceptable taper. The rears wore an average of 0.010” with very slight taper and a bias towards the outside pad which I can’t explain, but it was marginal at 0.005”. Based on the wear I would estimate that this setup would last a good part of a season or more.
New Issue: because the braking system was working better at Infineon, I was able to push a bit harder. It was then that I noticed that the braking had become less consistent from Laguna to Infineon. The pedal throw would vary from corner to corner. After some experimentation I could get consistency by just tapping (not pumping) the brake pedal lightly before the braking point. Also, the pad throw got longer after the 2-3-3a section and the ‘esses’ (8-8a-9) which are switchbacks that don’t really exist at Laguna. I believe that the flexing of the spindle/upright is causing the rotor to knock the pistons back into the bores. This is not a design flaw of the RB kit; indeed, the StopTech kit has the same issue. The latter company offers anti-knockback springs to help keep the pad in contact with the rotor at the cost of additional noise and dust. It should be possible to retrofit the RB kit with similar springs. However, if you know what to look for you can drive around this issue by tapping the brake pedal with your left foot just before you get off the accelerator for the braking point.
Overall: The combination of the RB kit and the Hawk pads performed very well. The excess noise was a bit unsettling, but not totally abnormal. (I think it would have been better if I had started with new rear rotors, as they made most of the noise.) The wear rates were very good and the braking performance was excellent. I’m not sure I pushed this setup to the limit; my tires on not full racing slicks and have about 6 track days on them. That said, compared to the ET900’s the Hawk pads are a huge improvement.
Verdict: if you are tracking your car, I would strongly recommend the Hawk pads over the RB pads.
Now, I still have yet to get my ‘street’ setup to an acceptable level of performance. I’m on my second set of ET500’s and the initial bite is very, very poor. It’s really hard to get the tires to lock. For comparison I switched back to the stock front brakes and the difference was dramatic. I need to try some Hawk HPS or HP+ pads to see if this helps the issue.
I am testing the same Hawk racing pads again in December at Laguna.
Also, there are a few other people out there who have tested various configurations of the RB kit with both RB and non-RB pads. I'm hoping that we'll get a chance to hear their experiences as well.
-ch
Junior Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
From: California
Wow Chris, those cracks are scary! It's fortunate that you didn't disintegrate one and end up in the beach!
Your eloquent prose has inspired me to relate my own experience from Laguna two weeks ago, so here it is:
Prior to heading to the track, I replaced the front calipers with new ones from RB, swapped out the master cylinder with that of a 929, and aligned the front calipers with the disks. One or all of these actions seems to have alleviated the mushy pedal, and I was pleased with the pedal feel.
The ET800s I was using seemed to fade after a lap or two at full tilt (I got down to the 1:47s), but never really went away. The bite was sudden and hard, but seemed to fade off a bit after a second or two. Obviously not a true racing pad. They don't work particularly well on the street either until after two or three panic stops. I probably won't purchase again.
For the last session of the day, I replace the ET800s with Hawk HT10s all the way around. During the swap, I sanded the disks with some 120 grit to break up any glaze, washed down the disks and pads with brake cleaner, and bled all four corners. I managed to sneak out for a couple of laps between my sessions to break in the pads per RB specifications. When I finally got out for my last session of the day, I was immediately impressed with the stopping power of the Hawks, but unfortunately by the time I got to turn 4 the brakes began to chatter. I continued for a couple of laps, but the chatter got so bad that it was blurring my vision so I came in to check things out. Everything was tight and visually appeared normal, so I went out again and continued to deal with the chatter. After the session, visual inspection of the rotors revealed that the areas just trailing the slots on the surface of the disks were heavily abraded while the rest of the disk was still grooved from the previous sessions. Maybe I didn't do a proper job of bedding them in??? Dunno...
I dropped the car off at Rick's Rotary Performance on the way home to have it smogged
and that is where it sits today having failed on several attempts. When I get the car back someday, I will check the runout on the disks to see if there is any warpage and if that is not an issue, I will do a more thorough job of sanding the disks and try it again... perhaps I can make it to Laguna in 2 weeks???
-Rick
BTW, my car probably has 320+/- HP and is running on AD048s with Tien Flex coilovers.
Your eloquent prose has inspired me to relate my own experience from Laguna two weeks ago, so here it is:
Prior to heading to the track, I replaced the front calipers with new ones from RB, swapped out the master cylinder with that of a 929, and aligned the front calipers with the disks. One or all of these actions seems to have alleviated the mushy pedal, and I was pleased with the pedal feel.
The ET800s I was using seemed to fade after a lap or two at full tilt (I got down to the 1:47s), but never really went away. The bite was sudden and hard, but seemed to fade off a bit after a second or two. Obviously not a true racing pad. They don't work particularly well on the street either until after two or three panic stops. I probably won't purchase again.
For the last session of the day, I replace the ET800s with Hawk HT10s all the way around. During the swap, I sanded the disks with some 120 grit to break up any glaze, washed down the disks and pads with brake cleaner, and bled all four corners. I managed to sneak out for a couple of laps between my sessions to break in the pads per RB specifications. When I finally got out for my last session of the day, I was immediately impressed with the stopping power of the Hawks, but unfortunately by the time I got to turn 4 the brakes began to chatter. I continued for a couple of laps, but the chatter got so bad that it was blurring my vision so I came in to check things out. Everything was tight and visually appeared normal, so I went out again and continued to deal with the chatter. After the session, visual inspection of the rotors revealed that the areas just trailing the slots on the surface of the disks were heavily abraded while the rest of the disk was still grooved from the previous sessions. Maybe I didn't do a proper job of bedding them in??? Dunno...
I dropped the car off at Rick's Rotary Performance on the way home to have it smogged
and that is where it sits today having failed on several attempts. When I get the car back someday, I will check the runout on the disks to see if there is any warpage and if that is not an issue, I will do a more thorough job of sanding the disks and try it again... perhaps I can make it to Laguna in 2 weeks???-Rick
BTW, my car probably has 320+/- HP and is running on AD048s with Tien Flex coilovers.
Great info guys, and a quick question for anyone running the 929 master: Did you add a proportioning valve to the line headed to the rear brakes, or is the 929 proportioning suited to our cars with the RB kit?
In short, the F/R bias is unchanged.
-ch
Great write up Chris!
Are you running the 929 MC or a new replacement stocker?
Glad I waited to buy track pads.....
I have some Hawk blacks for the rear if you want to test with them Chris. They are notorious for eating up rotors and creating lots of dust.
Are you running the 929 MC or a new replacement stocker?
Glad I waited to buy track pads.....
I have some Hawk blacks for the rear if you want to test with them Chris. They are notorious for eating up rotors and creating lots of dust.
That said, if you are replacing the MC anyway, doing a 929 upgrade is really, really easy! Azn Akira's link earlier in this thread is a great tutorial.
-ch
I wanted to post my experience with this setup and its shortcomings but was waiting until I spoke with RB. First thanks to hyperion for all his information. Mine will likely not be quite so detailed but the overall gist is the same as his post.
Car
'93 FD with the following relevant mods
Single turbo with around 400 RWHP depending on how much boost I'm running
3006 lbs with me in the car (about 175) and 3/4 tank of gas
285/30/18 Hoosier SO4's on all 4 corners
RB brakes F&R with ET900's, front cooling ducts
Fresh Motul 600 fluid and 929 MC
Track
Road Atlanta
Generally a fast track with heavy braking
PCA HPDE which is typically pretty crowded so open track is rare
This is a MPH -vs-distance plot of a typical lap from an old post. The red trace is my FD and the blue is my Cayman S (for sale if anyone is interested). This is not with the RB setup and top speed is now about 10 mph higher as the weather was cooler and I was running more boost. The down slopes represent braking.
Like Chris I found the initial bite of the ET900's to be excellent after bedding. Modulation was not quite as good as I have had with PF01's but it was probably due to the higher friction of these pads. The problem was the release characteristics; it was hard to get off them easily.
Dust and noise I couldn't care less about.
Unfortunately I was able to fade them after 3 hard laps. After that I could pretty much fade them at will, forcing me to drive closer to 8/10 to be safe and I still almost rear-ended someone under braking. Yes, it was pad fade, pedal was firm but the car was not slowing.
After the first session I noticed a lot of pad deposit on the rotors and some initial grooving. I continued through the day with the overall braking performance slowly declining. Initial bite was not nearly as good anymore.
Here is what the pads looked like after the first day (about 30 laps)
As you can see the pads are showing signs of being overheated and are about half gone. Note the pad material delamination on the inboard pad.
I bled them and went out again for the second day. Performance was similar to day one but gradually decreasing. They would stop the car but I was by no means threatening anyone under braking. The last session it was audibly clear that the pads were gone so I quit early.
Here are the rotors after day 2 - note severe pad deposition and grooving.
The rear rotors and pads look identical if not worse. There was really no significant rotor wear, less than .1 mm F and R. The pads were completely gone after the second day. I've never had pads wear this fast. Here's what's left. Admittedly these are worn beyond recommendation.
My previous setup was AP 5200's in the front with PF01's and '99 spec rears with Carbotech X8's. The RB setup is no doubt better balanced. I suspect the rotors are better at handling heat but I would need to do same pad comparisons to prove this. I was able to occasionally boil fluid with the AP's so I suspect the SS pistons in the RB calipers are helping.
Both the AP's and the RB's suffer from pad/piston knock-back. I can't say as it is any better or worse - probably inherent in the FD setup as I've heard the same complaints from StopTech users. Springs would be a welcome addition if we can work out the fitment. I've gotten used to a quick tap before heavy braking to bring the pads in contact. Annoying but effective
In summary the ET900 pads are absolute crap. I plan to try Hawk DCT's (since RB recommends them) before condemning the entire setup. I truly believe the RB setup is the best available now that the kinks are finally worked out but it is probably not a true race kit (and I suspect they will admit that). I've looked at putting together a one-off Performance Friction or AP kit with true racing calipers and rotors but you would easily spend $10K new. Since no one is paying me to cross the line a second earlier, I'll probably lower my expectations.
I have discussed this problem with Warren and am satisfied with his response for now. Howard truly let RB and everyone involved in this purchase down in a major way. A lot of people could have been saved a lot of money and frustration if he had completed the beta testing on this kit responsibly. Now that he has his free kit, I suspect we have seen the last of him WRT RB.
That's all I can think of for now.
Alan
Car
'93 FD with the following relevant mods
Single turbo with around 400 RWHP depending on how much boost I'm running
3006 lbs with me in the car (about 175) and 3/4 tank of gas
285/30/18 Hoosier SO4's on all 4 corners
RB brakes F&R with ET900's, front cooling ducts
Fresh Motul 600 fluid and 929 MC
Track
Road Atlanta
Generally a fast track with heavy braking
PCA HPDE which is typically pretty crowded so open track is rare
This is a MPH -vs-distance plot of a typical lap from an old post. The red trace is my FD and the blue is my Cayman S (for sale if anyone is interested). This is not with the RB setup and top speed is now about 10 mph higher as the weather was cooler and I was running more boost. The down slopes represent braking.
Like Chris I found the initial bite of the ET900's to be excellent after bedding. Modulation was not quite as good as I have had with PF01's but it was probably due to the higher friction of these pads. The problem was the release characteristics; it was hard to get off them easily.
Dust and noise I couldn't care less about.
Unfortunately I was able to fade them after 3 hard laps. After that I could pretty much fade them at will, forcing me to drive closer to 8/10 to be safe and I still almost rear-ended someone under braking. Yes, it was pad fade, pedal was firm but the car was not slowing.
After the first session I noticed a lot of pad deposit on the rotors and some initial grooving. I continued through the day with the overall braking performance slowly declining. Initial bite was not nearly as good anymore.
Here is what the pads looked like after the first day (about 30 laps)
As you can see the pads are showing signs of being overheated and are about half gone. Note the pad material delamination on the inboard pad.
I bled them and went out again for the second day. Performance was similar to day one but gradually decreasing. They would stop the car but I was by no means threatening anyone under braking. The last session it was audibly clear that the pads were gone so I quit early.
Here are the rotors after day 2 - note severe pad deposition and grooving.
The rear rotors and pads look identical if not worse. There was really no significant rotor wear, less than .1 mm F and R. The pads were completely gone after the second day. I've never had pads wear this fast. Here's what's left. Admittedly these are worn beyond recommendation.
My previous setup was AP 5200's in the front with PF01's and '99 spec rears with Carbotech X8's. The RB setup is no doubt better balanced. I suspect the rotors are better at handling heat but I would need to do same pad comparisons to prove this. I was able to occasionally boil fluid with the AP's so I suspect the SS pistons in the RB calipers are helping.
Both the AP's and the RB's suffer from pad/piston knock-back. I can't say as it is any better or worse - probably inherent in the FD setup as I've heard the same complaints from StopTech users. Springs would be a welcome addition if we can work out the fitment. I've gotten used to a quick tap before heavy braking to bring the pads in contact. Annoying but effective
In summary the ET900 pads are absolute crap. I plan to try Hawk DCT's (since RB recommends them) before condemning the entire setup. I truly believe the RB setup is the best available now that the kinks are finally worked out but it is probably not a true race kit (and I suspect they will admit that). I've looked at putting together a one-off Performance Friction or AP kit with true racing calipers and rotors but you would easily spend $10K new. Since no one is paying me to cross the line a second earlier, I'll probably lower my expectations.
I have discussed this problem with Warren and am satisfied with his response for now. Howard truly let RB and everyone involved in this purchase down in a major way. A lot of people could have been saved a lot of money and frustration if he had completed the beta testing on this kit responsibly. Now that he has his free kit, I suspect we have seen the last of him WRT RB.
That's all I can think of for now.
Alan
Alan, great post. I think my rotors and pads would have looked much like yours if I had run more laps. When do you think you'll get a chance to test the Hawk pads? I'm at Laguna in early December, but Road Atlanta is a much more serious test from a high-speed perspective.
I'm running with the following tools:
This should tell me the following:
1) how hot the rotor gets
2) how hot the caliper gets
Which should give me a good idea if the kit has the necessary thermal capacity to avoid pad overheat or fluid boiling.
For those playing along at home, this is what real development testing looks like.
I should note that Alan's setup is ducted while mine is not, so I'm expecting higher temps overall.
Rick may or may not be testing the HT-10's as well, depending on how consumed he is with other projects. Rick, I'm happy to lend you some temp strips if you can make it. SpeedVentures is running on the 3rd and 4th and still have slots open...
-ch
I'm running with the following tools:
This should tell me the following:
1) how hot the rotor gets
2) how hot the caliper gets
Which should give me a good idea if the kit has the necessary thermal capacity to avoid pad overheat or fluid boiling.
For those playing along at home, this is what real development testing looks like.
I should note that Alan's setup is ducted while mine is not, so I'm expecting higher temps overall.
Rick may or may not be testing the HT-10's as well, depending on how consumed he is with other projects.
Rick, I'm happy to lend you some temp strips if you can make it. SpeedVentures is running on the 3rd and 4th and still have slots open...-ch
If anything, Warren is very sympathetic and it was a no-hassle return, esp. since they were never installed.
I am so glad I waited it out . . .
:-) neil
Last edited by M104-AMG; Nov 27, 2007 at 08:19 AM.
+1. I would have been an early adopter, but I let reason rule my emotions on this purchase, so I'm glad I sent them back.
If anything, Warren is very sympathetic and it was a no-hassle return, esp. since they were never installed.
I am so glad I waited it out . . .
I have embedded the pictures into this thread just in case the hosted pictures (via Comcast) start to act up or are lost.
:-) neil
If anything, Warren is very sympathetic and it was a no-hassle return, esp. since they were never installed.
I am so glad I waited it out . . .
I have embedded the pictures into this thread just in case the hosted pictures (via Comcast) start to act up or are lost.
:-) neil
Based on those pictures It's pretty obvious to me that those pads are not up to the task.
snip........
Both the AP's and the RB's suffer from pad/piston knock-back. I can't say as it is any better or worse - probably inherent in the FD setup as I've heard the same complaints from StopTech users. Springs would be a welcome addition if we can work out the fitment. I've gotten used to a quick tap before heavy braking to bring the pads in contact. Annoying but effective
/snip
Alan
I wonder if we can source some small springs to fit inside the caliper pistons from McMaster Carr....
Thoughts???
I think a call to StopTech would be the first step, they have them right? I'd like to see one before taking a guess with McMaster. I think hyperion has been looking into this.
Here is an interesting comment on Knockback from a StopTech rep:
http://badisp.nasioc.com/forums/show...&postcount=147
http://badisp.nasioc.com/forums/show...&postcount=147
-ch
http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?fo...action=product
They changed his braking and got rid of the need to 'tap up' after every hard corner. I'm used to doing that now, so it doesn't bother me. Even if I had springs I would probably still do it.
A few notes on knockback:
1) It is common. If you search you'll see many cars newer than ours that suffer from this problem. Some are flex-related, some are vibration related. Just about every car gets some degree of knockback when running over rumble strips (like in turns 10-11 at Infineon), even purpose-built racecars like the Russell cars.
2) You can adjust your style to compensate. What Alan and GooRoo described above, the 'tap' method is used quite a bit, especially by rally drivers. It's not ideal, but neither is 'heel-toeing'. Both are a technique used to overcome some kind of physical issue that stops us from going faster.
3) You can limit knockback with springs, but this will require development and testing on the RB kit. I've heard that the Stoptech system is streetable, but the springs will lead to more pad drag which means more dust, lower pad life, and potentially more noise on aggressive pads. For 90% of the people on this list, it will be a bad tradeoff.
4) There are several companies that sell just the springs. AP, Performance Friction, and Stoptech are a few of them. HOWEVER, the springs are usually designed to center on some kind of feature on the backside of the piston, such as a pin or shallow channel. I haven't looked at the backside of the RB piston, but I bet it does not have that kind of feature. So a retrofit may be a challenge.
I've already contacted RB requesting where they stand with their anti-knockback technology. I hope to hear from them soon and will relay what I find.
-ch
1) It is common. If you search you'll see many cars newer than ours that suffer from this problem. Some are flex-related, some are vibration related. Just about every car gets some degree of knockback when running over rumble strips (like in turns 10-11 at Infineon), even purpose-built racecars like the Russell cars.
2) You can adjust your style to compensate. What Alan and GooRoo described above, the 'tap' method is used quite a bit, especially by rally drivers. It's not ideal, but neither is 'heel-toeing'. Both are a technique used to overcome some kind of physical issue that stops us from going faster.
3) You can limit knockback with springs, but this will require development and testing on the RB kit. I've heard that the Stoptech system is streetable, but the springs will lead to more pad drag which means more dust, lower pad life, and potentially more noise on aggressive pads. For 90% of the people on this list, it will be a bad tradeoff.
4) There are several companies that sell just the springs. AP, Performance Friction, and Stoptech are a few of them. HOWEVER, the springs are usually designed to center on some kind of feature on the backside of the piston, such as a pin or shallow channel. I haven't looked at the backside of the RB piston, but I bet it does not have that kind of feature. So a retrofit may be a challenge.
I've already contacted RB requesting where they stand with their anti-knockback technology. I hope to hear from them soon and will relay what I find.
-ch
