FD New Brake Options
12-04-07, 11:15 AM
#1201
Edit: I should mention he also has Fritz/Brad Barber's old manual brake setup from the Killer Bee as well. Also he has removed the ABS and stock proportioning valve, and he has digital pressure gauges with an adjustment **** in the cockpit.
12-14-07, 11:57 PM
#1202
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With the exception of finding suitable brake pads (more on that later), my RB saga is now over. It would be remiss of me not share, especially to those with a first generation kit.
There were more issues with the first generation kit then mentioned here.
First:
The caliper is set in too far radially, so the pad does not line up with the outside edge of the rotor. The pad is offset from the rotor edge a full .1”. It rides in the rust ring and almost touches the rotor ring mounting tabs. See attached pictures.
Warrens response:
Our fitment test agreed to your measurement on the pad offset from the rotor edge, although it's not perfect but it's acceptable as the bottom step you observed is not going any further which is where we cut the rust ring. For future rotor rings we will just eliminate the rust ring.
Talking with other members, I believe the issue has been corrected with the gen2 kit mounting bracket, not by eliminating the rust ring as stated.
Second:
The brake pad is not centered in the caliper. The pad set in the caliper too far and the pistons were not pushing on the center of the pad. I burned halfway though a set of ET800’s in a few sessions and measured .3” taper from the inside to the outside of the caliper. That is a significant misalignment! Sorry, no pics.
The pad to caliper alignment has been corrected.
As Adex already pointed out, RB pointed the finger at Howard for failure to test the kit appropriately. While I believe this to be true, it clearly says RacingBrake on the boxes and calipers.
I believe the current brake kit has addressed all the issues and performs as promised, but the process to arrive at this point was absolutely ridiculous. Discovery and more importantly DISCLOSURE of these issues shouldn’t be the job of the customer.
There were more issues with the first generation kit then mentioned here.
First:
The caliper is set in too far radially, so the pad does not line up with the outside edge of the rotor. The pad is offset from the rotor edge a full .1”. It rides in the rust ring and almost touches the rotor ring mounting tabs. See attached pictures.
Warrens response:
Our fitment test agreed to your measurement on the pad offset from the rotor edge, although it's not perfect but it's acceptable as the bottom step you observed is not going any further which is where we cut the rust ring. For future rotor rings we will just eliminate the rust ring.
Talking with other members, I believe the issue has been corrected with the gen2 kit mounting bracket, not by eliminating the rust ring as stated.
Second:
The brake pad is not centered in the caliper. The pad set in the caliper too far and the pistons were not pushing on the center of the pad. I burned halfway though a set of ET800’s in a few sessions and measured .3” taper from the inside to the outside of the caliper. That is a significant misalignment! Sorry, no pics.
The pad to caliper alignment has been corrected.
As Adex already pointed out, RB pointed the finger at Howard for failure to test the kit appropriately. While I believe this to be true, it clearly says RacingBrake on the boxes and calipers.
I believe the current brake kit has addressed all the issues and performs as promised, but the process to arrive at this point was absolutely ridiculous. Discovery and more importantly DISCLOSURE of these issues shouldn’t be the job of the customer.
12-15-07, 12:07 AM
#1203
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I don’t know that there is an easy fix to the pad to caliper alignment, but caliper to rotor alignment is easily fixed with some shims.
The attached pictures are of the shims I had machined to space the caliper out. With the original calipers I needed a .1” spacer for the pad to line up with the chamfer on the outside of the rotor. With the new calipers the spacing is reduced and I had the spacers remachined to .075”. I haven’t put the new spacers on yet, so I’m not certain that dimension is completely accurate. The shim shouldn’t hurt anything as it’s just sandwiched between the caliper and bracket.
The attached pictures are of the shims I had machined to space the caliper out. With the original calipers I needed a .1” spacer for the pad to line up with the chamfer on the outside of the rotor. With the new calipers the spacing is reduced and I had the spacers remachined to .075”. I haven’t put the new spacers on yet, so I’m not certain that dimension is completely accurate. The shim shouldn’t hurt anything as it’s just sandwiched between the caliper and bracket.
12-15-07, 12:07 AM
#1204
I'm sure Howard was compensated for "proper" testing of this brake system and to assist them with fitment of the 1st gen kit. I am not taking sides but I still think RB has done a great job at taking a HUGE hit by trying to make things right.
As a manufacturer RB took a big gamble in producing this kit based on the demand and credentials of hc. I'm sure steps could have been taken to avoid these problems, like working with a distributor like us, who has a truly vested interest in producing a perfect kit.
Although I don't have a FD i would have gladly done whatever it took to produce a damn good and affordable brake system for the FD application. My love is always for FC's, but FD's have the market.
i'm doing my best to be diplomatic, but i think the wealth of knowledge from this community is bar none. Sometimes we just gotta do things on our own because of the vehicles we own.
Since all purchases were direct through RB on this stuff I can't really assist you guys but I would definitely express all of these concerns to RB as i'm sure you have.
have a great weekend,
Rishie
As a manufacturer RB took a big gamble in producing this kit based on the demand and credentials of hc. I'm sure steps could have been taken to avoid these problems, like working with a distributor like us, who has a truly vested interest in producing a perfect kit.
Although I don't have a FD i would have gladly done whatever it took to produce a damn good and affordable brake system for the FD application. My love is always for FC's, but FD's have the market.
i'm doing my best to be diplomatic, but i think the wealth of knowledge from this community is bar none. Sometimes we just gotta do things on our own because of the vehicles we own.
Since all purchases were direct through RB on this stuff I can't really assist you guys but I would definitely express all of these concerns to RB as i'm sure you have.
have a great weekend,
Rishie
12-15-07, 01:06 AM
#1206
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Not trying to post *****; just working around the attachment size restrictions.
Attached is a pic of my ET800’s cracking. They aren’t as bad as cracks on hyperion’s ET900 pads. It could be a difference the pads or that I’m only running ~300whp on regular street tires.
My ET700’s do not have any cracks. It was raining the day I tried tracking the ET700’s, so that may be a factor. I will not be purchasing these or any ET series brake pad in the future. Fortunately, the RB caliper uses the same pad as the AP5200 so there are plenty of choices.
I’m curious how tests with the Hawk DTC’s are going? Given my modest power and street tires, I’m hoping to use something less aggressive then the DTC.
Attached is a pic of my ET800’s cracking. They aren’t as bad as cracks on hyperion’s ET900 pads. It could be a difference the pads or that I’m only running ~300whp on regular street tires.
My ET700’s do not have any cracks. It was raining the day I tried tracking the ET700’s, so that may be a factor. I will not be purchasing these or any ET series brake pad in the future. Fortunately, the RB caliper uses the same pad as the AP5200 so there are plenty of choices.
I’m curious how tests with the Hawk DTC’s are going? Given my modest power and street tires, I’m hoping to use something less aggressive then the DTC.
12-15-07, 08:00 AM
#1207
As Adex already pointed out, RB pointed the finger at Howard for failure to test the kit appropriately. While I believe this to be true, it clearly says RacingBrake on the boxes and calipers.
I believe the current brake kit has addressed all the issues and performs as promised, but the process to arrive at this point was absolutely ridiculous. Discovery and more importantly DISCLOSURE of these issues shouldn’t be the job of the customer.
I believe the current brake kit has addressed all the issues and performs as promised, but the process to arrive at this point was absolutely ridiculous. Discovery and more importantly DISCLOSURE of these issues shouldn’t be the job of the customer.
My DTC's arrived today but I probably will not be on the track again until March.
Alan
12-15-07, 09:36 AM
#1208
Original Gangster/Rotary!
iTrader: (213)
I have received zero communication from Racing Brake since receiving my first gen kit.
So are they going to be sending us these spacers? Seems like an easy fix in that regard.
What is being done to correct our pad to caliper alignment?
Oh, and I have zero sympathy for Warren. Every time I've spoken with him on the phone he has been rude and condescending.....In my opinion, the less he deals with his customers directly, the better.
So are they going to be sending us these spacers? Seems like an easy fix in that regard.
What is being done to correct our pad to caliper alignment?
Oh, and I have zero sympathy for Warren. Every time I've spoken with him on the phone he has been rude and condescending.....In my opinion, the less he deals with his customers directly, the better.
12-15-07, 11:47 AM
#1209
I have received zero communication from Racing Brake since receiving my first gen kit.
So are they going to be sending us these spacers? Seems like an easy fix in that regard.
What is being done to correct our pad to caliper alignment?
Oh, and I have zero sympathy for Warren. Every time I've spoken with him on the phone he has been rude and condescending.....In my opinion, the less he deals with his customers directly, the better.
So are they going to be sending us these spacers? Seems like an easy fix in that regard.
What is being done to correct our pad to caliper alignment?
Oh, and I have zero sympathy for Warren. Every time I've spoken with him on the phone he has been rude and condescending.....In my opinion, the less he deals with his customers directly, the better.
Oh, and one regarding the green calipers.
12-15-07, 01:28 PM
#1210
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I have the first gen RB BBK. Before I left for Iraq I did get the new brake lines and I knew about the filing needed. I thought no big deal. Now you guy's are saying there are even more issues with the kit that need resolving?
Can anyone make a list of the issues? So far I have read:
Brake lines too short. Received new ones.
Filing needed for steering knuckle to caliper clearance? No biggie.
Shims/spacers needed to center pads? Does RB offer these?
I have two complete sets of ET800's. These no good? Wear excessively and/or performance is poor?
Do I need new brackets?
Can anyone make a list of the issues? So far I have read:
Brake lines too short. Received new ones.
Filing needed for steering knuckle to caliper clearance? No biggie.
Shims/spacers needed to center pads? Does RB offer these?
I have two complete sets of ET800's. These no good? Wear excessively and/or performance is poor?
Do I need new brackets?
12-15-07, 10:04 PM
#1212
Original Gangster/Rotary!
iTrader: (213)
My kit is already mounted and has some miles on it. What are they doing in this situation? Accepting back our used parts? Seems unlikely.
12-16-07, 02:23 PM
#1213
https://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php...&postcount=373
12-16-07, 03:27 PM
#1214
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The pre-order offer clearly includes a return for full refund option:
https://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php...&postcount=373
https://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php...&postcount=373
However, you may be able to exchange the kit for a new one.
The shims are my creation. I chose this route because of the $150 refund for keeping the first gen kit. My uprights were already modified and the cost to make the shims was negligible so I chose not to pursue the revised kit and keep the money. Both modifications are a one time fix. Done and forgotten, so I’m not too upset about doing it.
My hang up was with the pad to caliper alignment. Ruining expensive track pads is not acceptable. You could remake the pad stops to correct the misalignment. Fortunately, I did get the updated caliper so I didn’t have to go down that path.
12-16-07, 06:48 PM
#1215
RB testing update
Hello all,
I've been holding off on posting my Laguna report as I am waiting on some information from RB. They are interested in making things right, so I am going to give them the opportunity to do so--although I still feel like I am doing development testing instead of having fun driving...but I digress.
Happily, there is some good news that I can report. As I mentioned in previous posts, I brought the car to Laguna with the idea of determining if the RB kit has the thermal capacity and cooling efficiency to run reliably at the track. My previous test at Infineon was encouraging, but Laguna Seca is much harder on brakes.
I used a combination of chromodynamic paint and temperature strips. I followed the same procedures that are used by race teams to gather their data. I painted the backing plates of the pads as well as the rotor edges and tabs. I placed temperature strips on the part of the caliper that gets the hottest, namely the outboard face. (On the rears I put the strip as close as I could to the outside.)
Here are some pics:
I ran about 35 laps on the day. The rotors and pads were the same that I ran at Infineon, namely the Hawk DTC-70 on the front and HT-10 in the rear. As before, the initial bite was excellent, and the modulation/release was good as well. There was no fading, but there is significant knockback on R-compound tires and you need to tap up to maintain a consistent pedal.
At a comfortable 9/10ths pace I was running consistently into the low 1:40's which is a reasonably quick time. The car is probably good for a high 1:30 with fresh tires. You can see on this trace that I'm lifting before braking on a few corners and not looking to set any track records--but still hitting three 110MPH+ braking zones in such a short lap.
The surprising result was that the rotor, pad, and caliper temps were well within operating ranges for the pads. The front rotors and pads peaked at about 1350F with the rears running a bit cooler. The calipers stayed below 370F which is considered the warning point for fluid temps.
I fully expected the fronts to show higher temps, but this result is encouraging. It suggests that the RB kit may not need ducts when paired with the DTC-70 pads.
Pad wear was also good, with some caveats. After two full track days I have over 85% of the front pads and over 90% of the rears left. The rotors have worn about 0.001" in the front and 0.004" in the rear. The wear pattern on the rotors are a little rough on the front--deposits and flaking--but by comparison Rick's car with HT-10's looked better so this is probably due to the aggressive DTC compound I'm using. There is no significant grooving.
There was some leading/trailing taper, and my recommendation to RB is that a larger piston stagger would help. (This is backed up by a noticeable temperature gradient across the backing plate.) But that's not too big of a deal. However, I am noticing a pronounced top-to-bottom taper on the outboard pads of the front calipers. I believe this is consistent with caliper flex. I would love to get some data from GooRoo or Damien on their pad wear to see if this is typical of track-driven cars with the 993TT or StopTech brakes. I should add, however, that this taper did not affect braking performance at all. I think you could run most of the season on a single set of pads.
As I mentioned above, I still have some concerns from the results of the Laguna test, but RB is working on them and I have agreed to give them time to respond. From my perspective the jury is still out, but on the subject of pads and thermal capacity, I am very encouraged by this latest test.
-ch
I've been holding off on posting my Laguna report as I am waiting on some information from RB. They are interested in making things right, so I am going to give them the opportunity to do so--although I still feel like I am doing development testing instead of having fun driving...but I digress.
Happily, there is some good news that I can report. As I mentioned in previous posts, I brought the car to Laguna with the idea of determining if the RB kit has the thermal capacity and cooling efficiency to run reliably at the track. My previous test at Infineon was encouraging, but Laguna Seca is much harder on brakes.
I used a combination of chromodynamic paint and temperature strips. I followed the same procedures that are used by race teams to gather their data. I painted the backing plates of the pads as well as the rotor edges and tabs. I placed temperature strips on the part of the caliper that gets the hottest, namely the outboard face. (On the rears I put the strip as close as I could to the outside.)
Here are some pics:
I ran about 35 laps on the day. The rotors and pads were the same that I ran at Infineon, namely the Hawk DTC-70 on the front and HT-10 in the rear. As before, the initial bite was excellent, and the modulation/release was good as well. There was no fading, but there is significant knockback on R-compound tires and you need to tap up to maintain a consistent pedal.
At a comfortable 9/10ths pace I was running consistently into the low 1:40's which is a reasonably quick time. The car is probably good for a high 1:30 with fresh tires. You can see on this trace that I'm lifting before braking on a few corners and not looking to set any track records--but still hitting three 110MPH+ braking zones in such a short lap.
The surprising result was that the rotor, pad, and caliper temps were well within operating ranges for the pads. The front rotors and pads peaked at about 1350F with the rears running a bit cooler. The calipers stayed below 370F which is considered the warning point for fluid temps.
I fully expected the fronts to show higher temps, but this result is encouraging. It suggests that the RB kit may not need ducts when paired with the DTC-70 pads.
Pad wear was also good, with some caveats. After two full track days I have over 85% of the front pads and over 90% of the rears left. The rotors have worn about 0.001" in the front and 0.004" in the rear. The wear pattern on the rotors are a little rough on the front--deposits and flaking--but by comparison Rick's car with HT-10's looked better so this is probably due to the aggressive DTC compound I'm using. There is no significant grooving.
There was some leading/trailing taper, and my recommendation to RB is that a larger piston stagger would help. (This is backed up by a noticeable temperature gradient across the backing plate.) But that's not too big of a deal. However, I am noticing a pronounced top-to-bottom taper on the outboard pads of the front calipers. I believe this is consistent with caliper flex. I would love to get some data from GooRoo or Damien on their pad wear to see if this is typical of track-driven cars with the 993TT or StopTech brakes. I should add, however, that this taper did not affect braking performance at all. I think you could run most of the season on a single set of pads.
As I mentioned above, I still have some concerns from the results of the Laguna test, but RB is working on them and I have agreed to give them time to respond. From my perspective the jury is still out, but on the subject of pads and thermal capacity, I am very encouraged by this latest test.
-ch
12-17-07, 09:02 AM
#1216
FWIW Chris,
I have no thermal data on my StopTechs, but do not see any uneven wear of pads (taper), having used both of N-Tech's compounds, and PFC 97's and 01's.
They DO, however, wear quickly. No way I'm soing a whole season on a single set of pads.
I have no thermal data on my StopTechs, but do not see any uneven wear of pads (taper), having used both of N-Tech's compounds, and PFC 97's and 01's.
They DO, however, wear quickly. No way I'm soing a whole season on a single set of pads.
12-17-07, 09:24 PM
#1217
Dang! This GB has gone to hell it seems like..
So, whats the deal now?? I have the 1st gen BBK... Have not installed it yet. Should I send it back for updated version?? Whats the deal??? Someone please give me the cliff note version to this whole 1000+ posts.
So, whats the deal now?? I have the 1st gen BBK... Have not installed it yet. Should I send it back for updated version?? Whats the deal??? Someone please give me the cliff note version to this whole 1000+ posts.
12-18-07, 08:22 AM
#1218
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I think I can complete a corporate summary for you Phil. Also, if I make a mistake, please anyone feel free to correct me.
Hyperion plus another forum member went to the track and had "mushy" brakes. Thinking it was a fluid problem they bled until they could bleed no more. They then went with a 929 MC. Now there seems to be knock back problems. During this they also experimented with RB's pads and were not happy with the results, so they switched to hawk pads and are pleased with the results. Goodfella has not experienced these problems (Mushy brakes) however he has not gone to the track either. Goodfella is not happy with Warren's customer service and I believe he is waiting on something from RB, some sort of shim perhaps? GooRoo and Damien seem to be running the rear portion of the kit without any problems. I think they engineered something to fix a very slight inconvenience, however I can't remember what that inconvenience was.
A couple pages back there are many pictures and indepth summaries by Hyperion about his experiances, observations and results.
Hyperion plus another forum member went to the track and had "mushy" brakes. Thinking it was a fluid problem they bled until they could bleed no more. They then went with a 929 MC. Now there seems to be knock back problems. During this they also experimented with RB's pads and were not happy with the results, so they switched to hawk pads and are pleased with the results. Goodfella has not experienced these problems (Mushy brakes) however he has not gone to the track either. Goodfella is not happy with Warren's customer service and I believe he is waiting on something from RB, some sort of shim perhaps? GooRoo and Damien seem to be running the rear portion of the kit without any problems. I think they engineered something to fix a very slight inconvenience, however I can't remember what that inconvenience was.
A couple pages back there are many pictures and indepth summaries by Hyperion about his experiances, observations and results.
12-18-07, 09:54 AM
#1219
As I mentioned above, I still have some concerns from the results of the Laguna test, but RB is working on them and I have agreed to give them time to respond. From my perspective the jury is still out, but on the subject of pads and thermal capacity, I am very encouraged by this latest test.
-ch
-ch
This is the first time I've seen this kind of data for any BBK kit.
It would be awesome if they could offer some anti knock back spring kit or if we could use one of the spring kits that are available in the market. I think its been pretty well publicized that the FD bearings will generate pad knockback on track especially when used with R compound tires.
12-18-07, 01:26 PM
#1220
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1) front brake lines too short - RB swapped the correct ones for me
2) I took the $150 credit and will grind uprights for clearance
3) Radial caliper misalignment - I can make shims easy enough
4) Caliper piston to pad misalignment - this one I can't fix
5) Pads cracking - I'll use mine on the street and get other pads for the track
1st to 3rd, in post #1202 you said issue #4 has been corrected. Did you correct this or did RB supply a fix?
12-18-07, 02:17 PM
#1221
I like the development/testing work Hyperion and 1st to 3rd have done. Huge hats off to you guys for taking the plunge and making this happen. I believe in the kit; however there are a few things that should be changed for sure.
I too have a brand new 1st gen kit sitting in the box with replaced brake lines (longer) not installed yet.
RacingBrake- Are you going to send us out revised caliper mounting brackets as you clearly see the 1st gen run as needing a revision? I feel this is something that should be addressed.
How do I return my ET pads (brand new) in exchange for some Hawks? Simply call you and get a return authorization number?
Any issues with cracked rotors under hard lapping? I'm going to be punishing these brakes with 550rwhp+ in the spring at the same courses Hyperion is running.
-Mark
gnx7@hotmail.com
I too have a brand new 1st gen kit sitting in the box with replaced brake lines (longer) not installed yet.
RacingBrake- Are you going to send us out revised caliper mounting brackets as you clearly see the 1st gen run as needing a revision? I feel this is something that should be addressed.
How do I return my ET pads (brand new) in exchange for some Hawks? Simply call you and get a return authorization number?
Any issues with cracked rotors under hard lapping? I'm going to be punishing these brakes with 550rwhp+ in the spring at the same courses Hyperion is running.
-Mark
gnx7@hotmail.com
12-18-07, 03:58 PM
#1222
Mark - RB isn't checking this thread. If you have any questions for them, contact them directly. I recently returned my ET700 for some Hawks also and Steve Woods took care of me.
Regarding the questions regarding the new revisions and such...
IIRC, The revised caliper mounting brackets were for those that opted to not take the credit and returned our 1st Gen kits for the brackets and rotor hats that repositioned the calipers and rotors so that there wasn't any interference with the spindles. I believe that is stated some pages back if someone cares to check.
I don't think anyone has cracked a rotor.
Cheers.
Regarding the questions regarding the new revisions and such...
IIRC, The revised caliper mounting brackets were for those that opted to not take the credit and returned our 1st Gen kits for the brackets and rotor hats that repositioned the calipers and rotors so that there wasn't any interference with the spindles. I believe that is stated some pages back if someone cares to check.
I don't think anyone has cracked a rotor.
Cheers.
12-18-07, 07:32 PM
#1223
Original Gangster/Rotary!
iTrader: (213)
Alberto/gracer, back when we were forced to make that decision, there was no knowledge of these additional problems with the kit. It was just an issue of grinding the spindles.
12-18-07, 08:30 PM
#1224
I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one on here who's questioning what going to happen next..
Currently I'm super busy with the DGRR 2008 and don't have much time making phone calls.. I just wished someone from the company will get on and give us an option.. or fix the problem.
$150 credit and will grind uprights for clearance is the only issue I'm going to have, no prob.. But seems like there are other issues and some are finding out and spending some time.. Which I am greatly appreciative. Thanks guys!
If
Currently I'm super busy with the DGRR 2008 and don't have much time making phone calls.. I just wished someone from the company will get on and give us an option.. or fix the problem.
$150 credit and will grind uprights for clearance is the only issue I'm going to have, no prob.. But seems like there are other issues and some are finding out and spending some time.. Which I am greatly appreciative. Thanks guys!
If