Old guys with 12As club meeting
10-21-09, 06:06 PM
#8129
Well, Ben just left, and still the SE is not running. This time it's because of his crazy carb. It's built for a turbo FC, but the manifold bolts right on so we figured we'd try it out (got nothing to lose right?) Well, we know the lines are getting gas, but the carb won't spray fuel from the jets. After deep examination, the damn thing has no bowls. I don't know why not, or how the thing ever ran without them (it was taken off a FC race car), but all I know is I'm still walking to work.
So, Ray. I called and left a message, but seeing as you probably check this more often, would you want to purchase that manifold and carb soon? If I can sell it Friday or Saturday, I can get a Holley 600 from a guy on here that has one for sale. His 600 is $450, so I'd like to try and get at least that much for the Holley, manifold, and 12A. The 600 also has a 12A manifold, so I can sell that to Gene who's been talking to me about buying my manifold. Only downside to the 600 is that it's stock, not RB, but for what I need it for (getting to work and around town), it'll work great in theory.
But then again the 465 works in theory.
Quad
So, Ray. I called and left a message, but seeing as you probably check this more often, would you want to purchase that manifold and carb soon? If I can sell it Friday or Saturday, I can get a Holley 600 from a guy on here that has one for sale. His 600 is $450, so I'd like to try and get at least that much for the Holley, manifold, and 12A. The 600 also has a 12A manifold, so I can sell that to Gene who's been talking to me about buying my manifold. Only downside to the 600 is that it's stock, not RB, but for what I need it for (getting to work and around town), it'll work great in theory.
But then again the 465 works in theory.
Quad
10-21-09, 06:56 PM
#8130
Hold on, Kevin. I think you are getting a little ADD here. What is worng with the 465? You told Roland you needed a 600, but it sounded like you didn't have everything setup yet?? I mean if you just slapped on the 465 and it didn't run right, did you check for vac leaks, check fuel pressure, adjust jet sizes, etc.? This is a new install, so there could be several things going on. Even if the 465 didn't work perfect (I think it will), it would only lack on in the high end.
Seriously, try making what you have work before bouncing between carbs. All that will do is cause frustration. Most times, there is always a bit of tweaking with a new install. Things like vacuum leaks or fuel pressure set too high or too low can cause issues.
Another thing to support my thinking: I had Rx7Carl put my spare GSL-SE AFM on his flowbench a few years back. If I remember correctly, the stock SE AFM would flow only about 313 CFM. Not sure what DP he was using, but he is a carb guy, the the prssure difference for testing should have been what a Holley or a Nikki would use. If the stock SE flow 313 CFM, how can a 465 Holley not be enough?
Don't bother with the 600..especially one not setup for a rotary. It will cause more problems than it will solve. I still stand behind the 465 working just great for your situation.
Install the 465. Check for vac leaks. Verify the fuel pressure (about 6-7 psi for a holley). How does it run? If you want, I can take you step by step over PM as what to do/test.
Kent
Seriously, try making what you have work before bouncing between carbs. All that will do is cause frustration. Most times, there is always a bit of tweaking with a new install. Things like vacuum leaks or fuel pressure set too high or too low can cause issues.
Another thing to support my thinking: I had Rx7Carl put my spare GSL-SE AFM on his flowbench a few years back. If I remember correctly, the stock SE AFM would flow only about 313 CFM. Not sure what DP he was using, but he is a carb guy, the the prssure difference for testing should have been what a Holley or a Nikki would use. If the stock SE flow 313 CFM, how can a 465 Holley not be enough?
Don't bother with the 600..especially one not setup for a rotary. It will cause more problems than it will solve. I still stand behind the 465 working just great for your situation.
Install the 465. Check for vac leaks. Verify the fuel pressure (about 6-7 psi for a holley). How does it run? If you want, I can take you step by step over PM as what to do/test.
Kent
10-21-09, 07:05 PM
#8131
Hold on, Kevin. I think you are getting a little ADD here. What is worng with the 465? You told Roland you needed a 600, but it sounded like you didn't have everything setup yet?? I mean if you just slapped on the 465 and it didn't run right, did you check for vac leaks, check fuel pressure, adjust jet sizes, etc.? This is a new install, so there could be several things going on. Even if the 465 didn't work perfect (I think it will), it would only lack on in the high end.
Seriously, try making what you have work before bouncing between carbs. All that will do is cause frustration. Most times, there is always a bit of tweaking with a new install. Things like vacuum leaks or fuel pressure set too high or too low can cause issues.
Another thing to support my thinking: I had Rx7Carl put my spare GSL-SE AFM on his flowbench a few years back. If I remember correctly, the stock SE AFM would flow only about 313 CFM. Not sure what DP he was using, but he is a carb guy, the the prssure difference for testing should have been what a Holley or a Nikki would use. If the stock SE flow 313 CFM, how can a 465 Holley not be enough?
Don't bother with the 600..especially one not setup for a rotary. It will cause more problems than it will solve. I still stand behind the 465 working just great for your situation.
Install the 465. Check for vac leaks. Verify the fuel pressure (about 6-7 psi for a holley). How does it run? If you want, I can take you step by step over PM as what to do/test.
Kent
Seriously, try making what you have work before bouncing between carbs. All that will do is cause frustration. Most times, there is always a bit of tweaking with a new install. Things like vacuum leaks or fuel pressure set too high or too low can cause issues.
Another thing to support my thinking: I had Rx7Carl put my spare GSL-SE AFM on his flowbench a few years back. If I remember correctly, the stock SE AFM would flow only about 313 CFM. Not sure what DP he was using, but he is a carb guy, the the prssure difference for testing should have been what a Holley or a Nikki would use. If the stock SE flow 313 CFM, how can a 465 Holley not be enough?
Don't bother with the 600..especially one not setup for a rotary. It will cause more problems than it will solve. I still stand behind the 465 working just great for your situation.
Install the 465. Check for vac leaks. Verify the fuel pressure (about 6-7 psi for a holley). How does it run? If you want, I can take you step by step over PM as what to do/test.
Kent
I just don't know much, and Ben had a gigantic Holley laying around, so I figured we'd try it. That thing is ******* nuts though. No bowls, no float, nothing. It's really weird.
I'll bolt the 465 back on tomorrow, and if you could PM me everything you can think of, and even your phone number so I can call if I get really stuck.
I do think I might know an issue (again, being new, I may be wrong) but does the fuel pump always run, or does it only flow when the ECU tells it to. Seeing as the ECU is more or less unplugged (I still have some of the harness left plugged in, at least till I get the car running), it seems like it might not run all the time.
Quad
10-21-09, 07:15 PM
#8133
I don't have new jets, nor know which ones to get or how to get a hold of them. Everything was bolted on, and the pressure gauge was reading 6 psi. It was still just running lean...
I just don't know much, and Ben had a gigantic Holley laying around, so I figured we'd try it. That thing is ******* nuts though. No bowls, no float, nothing. It's really weird.
I'll bolt the 465 back on tomorrow, and if you could PM me everything you can think of, and even your phone number so I can call if I get really stuck.
I do think I might know an issue (again, being new, I may be wrong) but does the fuel pump always run, or does it only flow when the ECU tells it to. Seeing as the ECU is more or less unplugged (I still have some of the harness left plugged in, at least till I get the car running), it seems like it might not run all the time.
Quad
I just don't know much, and Ben had a gigantic Holley laying around, so I figured we'd try it. That thing is ******* nuts though. No bowls, no float, nothing. It's really weird.
I'll bolt the 465 back on tomorrow, and if you could PM me everything you can think of, and even your phone number so I can call if I get really stuck.
I do think I might know an issue (again, being new, I may be wrong) but does the fuel pump always run, or does it only flow when the ECU tells it to. Seeing as the ECU is more or less unplugged (I still have some of the harness left plugged in, at least till I get the car running), it seems like it might not run all the time.
Quad
Quad,
Was the pressure holding at 6 psi when running? How do you know it was lean? If it was lean, was it lean at idle, driving, or...? A vac leak will also make it lean, so that is a strong possibility too.
The fuel pump thing is another possibility. The 84/85 cars run the fuel pump when the car is cranking or running. For the GSL-SE, it uses a switch in the AFM to keep the pump running after it starts. If you are running the pump off the stock wiring, then the pump may not be running after starting and you are just running off the fuel in the bowls. I don't know how much of the SE harness is still plugged in, so not sure what your options may be for jumping the pump. You best bet may be to run a new switched power source to the pump.
PM is best. I have to work all day, so the phone call would only work in the evening.
Anyway, check those things out and let me know how it goes.
Kent
10-21-09, 07:27 PM
#8134
Quad,
Was the pressure holding at 6 psi when running? How do you know it was lean? If it was lean, was it lean at idle, driving, or...? A vac leak will also make it lean, so that is a strong possibility too.
The fuel pump thing is another possibility. The 84/85 cars run the fuel pump when the car is cranking or running. For the GSL-SE, it uses a switch in the AFM to keep the pump running after it starts. If you are running the pump off the stock wiring, then the pump may not be running after starting and you are just running off the fuel in the bowls. I don't know how much of the SE harness is still plugged in, so not sure what your options may be for jumping the pump. You best bet may be to run a new switched power source to the pump.
PM is best. I have to work all day, so the phone call would only work in the evening.
Anyway, check those things out and let me know how it goes.
Kent
Was the pressure holding at 6 psi when running? How do you know it was lean? If it was lean, was it lean at idle, driving, or...? A vac leak will also make it lean, so that is a strong possibility too.
The fuel pump thing is another possibility. The 84/85 cars run the fuel pump when the car is cranking or running. For the GSL-SE, it uses a switch in the AFM to keep the pump running after it starts. If you are running the pump off the stock wiring, then the pump may not be running after starting and you are just running off the fuel in the bowls. I don't know how much of the SE harness is still plugged in, so not sure what your options may be for jumping the pump. You best bet may be to run a new switched power source to the pump.
PM is best. I have to work all day, so the phone call would only work in the evening.
Anyway, check those things out and let me know how it goes.
Kent
As for lean, it would only idle around 1500RPM, otherwise it would die, and according to Ben, it smelled lean. I don't know what lean smells like, but I know rich (the thing used to run rich when it did run, smelled like gas all the time) and it doesn't smell the same.
Quad
10-21-09, 07:52 PM
#8136
Well, the plan is to unbolt the Monster Holley, and rebolt the 465 on tomorrow. I'm starting at 8, and working until it's done, or whenever I must leave for my Navy meeting around 2.30, whichever comes first. I'll short the fuel pump again (I don't remember if we did that last time or not, we may not have), and see if it'll still run lean. If it does, I'll PM you Kent. With what we're seeing on the frontlines.
Quad
Quad
10-21-09, 08:21 PM
#8137
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hey if any of u guys arent busy sunday a bunch of us 7 owners are meetin up in swannee from 12 to 5 to hang out,slide and drive around some cones if anybody wants to come on out ur more than welcome would love to have u guys
address: 3690 burnette park drive suite B
Swanee ga 30024
address: 3690 burnette park drive suite B
Swanee ga 30024
10-21-09, 08:24 PM
#8138
If my SE is running, I'll try and get up there. All depends on that 465 carb working.
10-21-09, 08:26 PM
#8139
Mr. RPM
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I hope the 465 works for Quad like Kent said. According to MazdaTrix the 465 works for the 76-85 12a and 76-78 4 port 13b. All 6 port 13b engines use a 600. I know some of you guys do not agree and I am not saying that you are wrong by no means. Hopefully Quad can make the 465 work with Kent's assistance. Jim Downing recommends using a 550 cfm Holley for 13B engines on the street. Does anyone know the jetting for the 465 to make it work on the 6 port 13b for Quad?
10-21-09, 08:28 PM
#8140
I hope the 465 works for Quad like Kent said. According to MazdaTrix the 465 works for the 76-85 12a and 76-78 4 port 13b. All 6 port 13b engines use a 600. I know some of you guys do not agree and I am not saying that you are wrong by no means. Hopefully Quad can make the 465 work with Kent's assistance. Jim Downing recommends using a 550 cfm Holley for 13B engines on the street. Does anyone know the jetting for the 465 to make it work on the 6 port 13b for Quad?
Quad
10-21-09, 08:33 PM
#8141
Mr. RPM
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I hope so too. I'm honestly thinking I didn't short the fuel pump, so I wasn't getting full pressure. That would obviously affect performance. And a jetting recommendation would be awesome, along with a place to purchase such jets if available at a auto parts place...
Quad
Quad
Lawrenceville Auto Parts - Not sure if they still have them
Kirks Speed Shop - Monroe
Barnett Performance - Boulevard St - near the Zoo
Summit Racing - McDonough
10-21-09, 09:34 PM
#8142
Once we figure out jets, there should be plenty of places to buy them (super common). I'll check around and see what I can find for jet size.
1500 RPM idle + lean = vac leak for sure (just the no idle below 1500 tells me you have a vac leak somewhere).
Check all vac lines and also check the manifold gasket. When tightening down the manifold, it is best to work in a star pattern of sort to prevent warping if things bind a bit. Make sure that the manifold bolts are snug. Brake booster line is also a potential source for large vac leaks.
For fuel setup, I recall you are running a holley pump (blue?) and a holley regulator. For fuel poressure, are you using Billy's gauge or something else? For filter, are you using the SE filter? If so, it may be a better choice to use a universal carb style filter instead.
For the jetting, I recall that RB grinds of the numbers on the jets so you can't easily copy the setup. I seem to remember Sterling or someone posting what sizes they should be. I'll poke around and see what is up.
1500 RPM idle + lean = vac leak for sure (just the no idle below 1500 tells me you have a vac leak somewhere).
Check all vac lines and also check the manifold gasket. When tightening down the manifold, it is best to work in a star pattern of sort to prevent warping if things bind a bit. Make sure that the manifold bolts are snug. Brake booster line is also a potential source for large vac leaks.
For fuel setup, I recall you are running a holley pump (blue?) and a holley regulator. For fuel poressure, are you using Billy's gauge or something else? For filter, are you using the SE filter? If so, it may be a better choice to use a universal carb style filter instead.
For the jetting, I recall that RB grinds of the numbers on the jets so you can't easily copy the setup. I seem to remember Sterling or someone posting what sizes they should be. I'll poke around and see what is up.
10-21-09, 09:41 PM
#8143
Once we figure out jets, there should be plenty of places to buy them (super common). I'll check around and see what I can find for jet size.
1500 RPM idle + lean = vac leak for sure (just the no idle below 1500 tells me you have a vac leak somewhere).
Check all vac lines and also check the manifold gasket. When tightening down the manifold, it is best to work in a star pattern of sort to prevent warping if things bind a bit. Make sure that the manifold bolts are snug. Brake booster line is also a potential source for large vac leaks.
For fuel setup, I recall you are running a holley pump (blue?) and a holley regulator. For fuel poressure, are you using Billy's gauge or something else? For filter, are you using the SE filter? If so, it may be a better choice to use a universal carb style filter instead.
For the jetting, I recall that RB grinds of the numbers on the jets so you can't easily copy the setup. I seem to remember Sterling or someone posting what sizes they should be. I'll poke around and see what is up.
1500 RPM idle + lean = vac leak for sure (just the no idle below 1500 tells me you have a vac leak somewhere).
Check all vac lines and also check the manifold gasket. When tightening down the manifold, it is best to work in a star pattern of sort to prevent warping if things bind a bit. Make sure that the manifold bolts are snug. Brake booster line is also a potential source for large vac leaks.
For fuel setup, I recall you are running a holley pump (blue?) and a holley regulator. For fuel poressure, are you using Billy's gauge or something else? For filter, are you using the SE filter? If so, it may be a better choice to use a universal carb style filter instead.
For the jetting, I recall that RB grinds of the numbers on the jets so you can't easily copy the setup. I seem to remember Sterling or someone posting what sizes they should be. I'll poke around and see what is up.
It is a Holley blue and reg, I don't know which gauge it is, it's whatever one was on the 12A that Kevin had. And which filter? The fuel? It's still stock, the air is obviously not....
Thanks for all the help. Like I said, at 0800 I'll be commencing teardown of the Monster, and reinstall of the 465, and I usually star pattern bolts (drumming habit), so that shouldn't have been an issue, but I should probably invest in a new gasket...
I'll keep everyone posted if anything major comes up.
Quad
10-21-09, 10:14 PM
#8144
Yep. Talking about the fuel filter.
The nipples on the oil injectors may be drawing in air. Check all the lines, around the ACV (if there is a blockoff place), around any gaskets on the intake, etc.
I assumne that you didn't touch timing, ignition parts, etc. 6psi is about right, but you may want to go 6.5-7 (although it shouldn't matter much for idle).
Good luck. Wish I was closer so I could come by to help out.
The nipples on the oil injectors may be drawing in air. Check all the lines, around the ACV (if there is a blockoff place), around any gaskets on the intake, etc.
I assumne that you didn't touch timing, ignition parts, etc. 6psi is about right, but you may want to go 6.5-7 (although it shouldn't matter much for idle).
Good luck. Wish I was closer so I could come by to help out.
10-21-09, 10:32 PM
#8145
Yep. Talking about the fuel filter.
The nipples on the oil injectors may be drawing in air. Check all the lines, around the ACV (if there is a blockoff place), around any gaskets on the intake, etc.
I assumne that you didn't touch timing, ignition parts, etc. 6psi is about right, but you may want to go 6.5-7 (although it shouldn't matter much for idle).
Good luck. Wish I was closer so I could come by to help out.
The nipples on the oil injectors may be drawing in air. Check all the lines, around the ACV (if there is a blockoff place), around any gaskets on the intake, etc.
I assumne that you didn't touch timing, ignition parts, etc. 6psi is about right, but you may want to go 6.5-7 (although it shouldn't matter much for idle).
Good luck. Wish I was closer so I could come by to help out.
You lost me with ACV by the way.
I'll just check everything, and make sure everything is blocked off. And no, timing and ignition were left as is.
10-21-09, 10:35 PM
#8146
No distributor? No thanks
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Hey Kevin, Holleys are also notorious for having flex at the base of the carburetor. You can try a couple of carb base gaskets stacked up, or laminate one with RTV top and bottom when installing. If your vacuum leaks suddenly disappear, then you had a warped carb body.
10-22-09, 08:39 AM
#8149
Sleeper but still slow
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Awesome.
Quad, good luck, I do recommend gasket stacking and sealing the heck out of everything(Hylomar, and/or RTV, pick your poison) because it really sounds like a vacuum leak somewhere, and it's probably not at a hose or plug fitting. If any hoses look cracked, temporarily try to coat them in anything gel-like to provide a temporary seal, if things get smoother, it's where your leak is and that hose or plug needs to be replaced with fresh rubber, but first, when the manifolds are all apart, treat all the gaskets with excessive Hylomar, or red RTV.
Quad, good luck, I do recommend gasket stacking and sealing the heck out of everything(Hylomar, and/or RTV, pick your poison) because it really sounds like a vacuum leak somewhere, and it's probably not at a hose or plug fitting. If any hoses look cracked, temporarily try to coat them in anything gel-like to provide a temporary seal, if things get smoother, it's where your leak is and that hose or plug needs to be replaced with fresh rubber, but first, when the manifolds are all apart, treat all the gaskets with excessive Hylomar, or red RTV.
10-22-09, 09:10 AM
#8150
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Thanks everyone! And thank you Crit for the offer. It sucks that I am I guess the only one from SWGA. If there's anything major going on in ATL and I can male it I will.