Old guys with 12As club meeting
10-11-09, 12:34 AM
#7801
The only down fall to finding a used engine is you do not know the condition - unless you hear it run before you buy it or have a compression reading! An engine with alot of miles that you may buy is not going to last the way you drive - according to the guy that saw and heard you pegging the tach! A rotary can only handle so much without a rev limiter! If you buy a used engine and I were in your shoes I would drive it like a granny. If you go the used engine route DO NOT drive it like you stole it and it should last!
-roland
-roland
Quad
10-11-09, 01:49 AM
#7802
Sleeper but still slow
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Chris, I'm not sure you want to bite off all that work. Remember that an axle swap includes 4 links, watts, brakes, ebrake, and putting it all back together. Do you really want to remove this stuff twice and install it once? You could just strip the S2 rear end from your shell and sell it as-is. Remember that Ray's shell is an S3 big-bearing car, which is worth keeping. Your small-bearing LSD is also a hot commodity to the old-school small-bearing crowd.
Ray's car was a runner when it quit, as was your car. I'd expect they'd be in similar condition regarding brakes shocks/struts, etc., so there's not much to gain by swapping. I'd recommend taking your 13B crossmember, engine, intake and exhaust and just moving that to Ray's car. You could pick and choose what else you move, including the radiator, but it would be a LOT less work, no real difference in the final result, plus you'd have a valuable LSD you could trade back to Ray or sell on eBay.
I can supply my engine hoist, tall jack stands (important for long jobs, I've found) electric impact and sockets for you guys to borrow until you're done. I'm not available next Saturday, but my weekends are otherwise pretty open.
Ray's car was a runner when it quit, as was your car. I'd expect they'd be in similar condition regarding brakes shocks/struts, etc., so there's not much to gain by swapping. I'd recommend taking your 13B crossmember, engine, intake and exhaust and just moving that to Ray's car. You could pick and choose what else you move, including the radiator, but it would be a LOT less work, no real difference in the final result, plus you'd have a valuable LSD you could trade back to Ray or sell on eBay.
I can supply my engine hoist, tall jack stands (important for long jobs, I've found) electric impact and sockets for you guys to borrow until you're done. I'm not available next Saturday, but my weekends are otherwise pretty open.
10-11-09, 05:39 AM
#7803
So you've got me curious Roland. Can you give me some ball park figures on a 12A rebuild by you guys? With some variations, like the Economy Build, the Silver Treatment and the Gold Treatment? And maybe a mild street port tossed in?
My Silver 12A runs so much better than the other three 12A's I've driven I'm starting to wonder what a 12A would be like if it were new. So far I have two cores collected for the project, with maybe a third if I include the 12A from the Silver One (it is running really really strong, but it's also consuming much more oil than I'm used to, probably because of bad oil control rings. Maybe all that oil is what's making it run so well).
Crit is right of course about it being easier to not remove the running gear from the White One before Chris takes it over, it would be quicker and easier to leave all that stuff and just focus on the engine and transmission. (Crit those tools would be a huge technological advance over my monkey wrenches and tree hoist).
The reason that option came up was it's a compromise that gives both Chris and me what we want out of the car - for Chris a new shell with Sexy Pant's innards, for me spare parts I might need down the road for the Silver One and future 84/85 GSLs, especially the LSD, steering box, recent brake calipers and stainless steel lines (us old guys think in decades, not years). Unfortunately the equivalent parts from Chris' Sexy Pants won't be useful to me as backups because of compatibility issues.
My plan was to put the White One up on blocks and remove all this stuff before the serious work even begins on Sexy Pants, so that when things get serious items could be moved directly from Sexy Pants onto the White One (soon to be Sexy Pants II). I'm also assuming that a complete swap will avoid any incompatibility issues that might come up between the '83 and '84 drive trains. Chris will have the intact soul of Sexy Pant's installed in the White One's shell and I will have the soul of the White One taking me to work for the next twenty years.
Sentimental yes, but it also makes good economic sense.
Given the extra labor involved in installing Sexy Pants' running gear into the White One, I suggested to Chris that $300 would be a better price for the shell than $500, but Chris is putting up a fight about this, I could only talk him down to $400. I suggested he see how he feels AFTER all the work is done. Of course anything Chris needs to complete his project (except labor) will most likely be available from the parts shed.
However, being a liberal, I'm always vulnerable to changing my mind.
My Silver 12A runs so much better than the other three 12A's I've driven I'm starting to wonder what a 12A would be like if it were new. So far I have two cores collected for the project, with maybe a third if I include the 12A from the Silver One (it is running really really strong, but it's also consuming much more oil than I'm used to, probably because of bad oil control rings. Maybe all that oil is what's making it run so well).
Crit is right of course about it being easier to not remove the running gear from the White One before Chris takes it over, it would be quicker and easier to leave all that stuff and just focus on the engine and transmission. (Crit those tools would be a huge technological advance over my monkey wrenches and tree hoist).
The reason that option came up was it's a compromise that gives both Chris and me what we want out of the car - for Chris a new shell with Sexy Pant's innards, for me spare parts I might need down the road for the Silver One and future 84/85 GSLs, especially the LSD, steering box, recent brake calipers and stainless steel lines (us old guys think in decades, not years). Unfortunately the equivalent parts from Chris' Sexy Pants won't be useful to me as backups because of compatibility issues.
My plan was to put the White One up on blocks and remove all this stuff before the serious work even begins on Sexy Pants, so that when things get serious items could be moved directly from Sexy Pants onto the White One (soon to be Sexy Pants II). I'm also assuming that a complete swap will avoid any incompatibility issues that might come up between the '83 and '84 drive trains. Chris will have the intact soul of Sexy Pant's installed in the White One's shell and I will have the soul of the White One taking me to work for the next twenty years.
Sentimental yes, but it also makes good economic sense.
Given the extra labor involved in installing Sexy Pants' running gear into the White One, I suggested to Chris that $300 would be a better price for the shell than $500, but Chris is putting up a fight about this, I could only talk him down to $400. I suggested he see how he feels AFTER all the work is done. Of course anything Chris needs to complete his project (except labor) will most likely be available from the parts shed.
However, being a liberal, I'm always vulnerable to changing my mind.
10-11-09, 08:20 AM
#7804
Here is the last car that we did before the present restoration. We did the mechanicals. Owner is doing the body work and paint. Silver on black 1982 RX7 GSL. New - Wheels and tires, (12a from Mazda before they discontinued them), clutch, (Racing Beat carb set-up, exhaust, Steel braided oil cooler lines, double pulley, sway bars front-rear & lowering springs) Tokico blues front and rear. Of course new NGK plugs and wires. Also all the usuals Holly blue pump & regulator, 4 new calipers and rotors etc etc etc - the list goes on and on. Thought you guys might like to see.
When I retire can I come to work for you?
With all these parts moving around in the OGTA crowd, I am looking for a running core 12A for my car. If anyone runs across a deal on core worth swapping into my car let me know.
10-11-09, 12:58 PM
#7805
No distributor? No thanks
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You guys do nice work. What kind of wheels are on this car?
When I retire can I come to work for you?
With all these parts moving around in the OGTA crowd, I am looking for a running core 12A for my car. If anyone runs across a deal on core worth swapping into my car let me know.
When I retire can I come to work for you?
With all these parts moving around in the OGTA crowd, I am looking for a running core 12A for my car. If anyone runs across a deal on core worth swapping into my car let me know.
10-11-09, 01:40 PM
#7806
I have narrowed down the issue with the GSL-SE! It's a short somewhere in the harness to the AFM. I pinned out the ECU for the AFM, and it all came out 11.5 V, which according to Crit's FSM, is totally wrong. I'm getting way too much juice on 3 of the 4 wires coming from the AFM. I tested my old AFM, and it is all pinning out great, with good resistance all around. So it sounds like I just need to re-do the wiring harness, and all should be well with the SE. Anyone wanna help me tackle such a task?
Quad
Quad
10-11-09, 03:43 PM
#7807
Sleeper but still slow
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Wow, borrowing Karl's car this week and I have to say, new shifter bushings and motor mounts are a must when I swap over to Ray's car and shocks are the first mod in the new body down the road in a few months because Karl's 7 drives like a new car. I had no idea my parts were that worn. These luxuries aren't first priority, just noting the differences.
10-11-09, 04:53 PM
#7808
"I have narrowed down the issue with the GSL-SE! It's a short somewhere in the harness to the AFM. I pinned out the ECU for the AFM, and it all came out 11.5 V, which according to Crit's FSM, is totally wrong. I'm getting way too much juice on 3 of the 4 wires coming from the AFM. I tested my old AFM, and it is all pinning out great, with good resistance all around. So it sounds like I just need to re-do the wiring harness, and all should be well with the SE. Anyone wanna help me tackle such a task?"
Wow, I think we have a rotor head in the making. The dude already knows how to fix an SE that Mazmart couldn't, not a bad start.
Now Crit, I know working 12As are a precious commodity (that's one of the reason's we are the Old Guys with 12A's) but there are still some around. Like the one that's sitting out in my driveway that Michael brought over the day we worked on his Nikki, you know the one he got from Kevin (that'd be Ace)?
I've heard rumors it still has compression, so it might be just what Mike needs.
I was talking to Michael about this and what we should do is hook a starter on it (I've got one) and do a compression test. Anybody got a compression tester?
Wow, I think we have a rotor head in the making. The dude already knows how to fix an SE that Mazmart couldn't, not a bad start.
Now Crit, I know working 12As are a precious commodity (that's one of the reason's we are the Old Guys with 12A's) but there are still some around. Like the one that's sitting out in my driveway that Michael brought over the day we worked on his Nikki, you know the one he got from Kevin (that'd be Ace)?
I've heard rumors it still has compression, so it might be just what Mike needs.
I was talking to Michael about this and what we should do is hook a starter on it (I've got one) and do a compression test. Anybody got a compression tester?
10-11-09, 05:58 PM
#7809
Mr. RPM
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You guys do nice work. What kind of wheels are on this car?
When I retire can I come to work for you?
With all these parts moving around in the OGTA crowd, I am looking for a running core 12A for my car. If anyone runs across a deal on core worth swapping into my car let me know.
When I retire can I come to work for you?
With all these parts moving around in the OGTA crowd, I am looking for a running core 12A for my car. If anyone runs across a deal on core worth swapping into my car let me know.
I am unemployed presently
Hopefully when you retire I will have a job
10-11-09, 06:33 PM
#7811
Mr. RPM
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So you've got me curious Roland. Can you give me some ball park figures on a 12A rebuild by you guys? With some variations, like the Economy Build, the Silver Treatment and the Gold Treatment? And maybe a mild street port tossed in?
My Silver 12A runs so much better than the other three 12A's I've driven I'm starting to wonder what a 12A would be like if it were new. So far I have two cores collected for the project, with maybe a third if I include the 12A from the Silver One (it is running really really strong, but it's also consuming much more oil than I'm used to, probably because of bad oil control rings. Maybe all that oil is what's making it run so well).
Crit is right of course about it being easier to not remove the running gear from the White One before Chris takes it over, it would be quicker and easier to leave all that stuff and just focus on the engine and transmission. (Crit those tools would be a huge technological advance over my monkey wrenches and tree hoist).
The reason that option came up was it's a compromise that gives both Chris and me what we want out of the car - for Chris a new shell with Sexy Pant's innards, for me spare parts I might need down the road for the Silver One and future 84/85 GSLs, especially the LSD, steering box, recent brake calipers and stainless steel lines (us old guys think in decades, not years). Unfortunately the equivalent parts from Chris' Sexy Pants won't be useful to me as backups because of compatibility issues.
My plan was to put the White One up on blocks and remove all this stuff before the serious work even begins on Sexy Pants, so that when things get serious items could be moved directly from Sexy Pants onto the White One (soon to be Sexy Pants II). I'm also assuming that a complete swap will avoid any incompatibility issues that might come up between the '83 and '84 drive trains. Chris will have the intact soul of Sexy Pant's installed in the White One's shell and I will have the soul of the White One taking me to work for the next twenty years.
Sentimental yes, but it also makes good economic sense.
Given the extra labor involved in installing Sexy Pants' running gear into the White One, I suggested to Chris that $300 would be a better price for the shell than $500, but Chris is putting up a fight about this, I could only talk him down to $400. I suggested he see how he feels AFTER all the work is done. Of course anything Chris needs to complete his project (except labor) will most likely be available from the parts shed.
However, being a liberal, I'm always vulnerable to changing my mind.
My Silver 12A runs so much better than the other three 12A's I've driven I'm starting to wonder what a 12A would be like if it were new. So far I have two cores collected for the project, with maybe a third if I include the 12A from the Silver One (it is running really really strong, but it's also consuming much more oil than I'm used to, probably because of bad oil control rings. Maybe all that oil is what's making it run so well).
Crit is right of course about it being easier to not remove the running gear from the White One before Chris takes it over, it would be quicker and easier to leave all that stuff and just focus on the engine and transmission. (Crit those tools would be a huge technological advance over my monkey wrenches and tree hoist).
The reason that option came up was it's a compromise that gives both Chris and me what we want out of the car - for Chris a new shell with Sexy Pant's innards, for me spare parts I might need down the road for the Silver One and future 84/85 GSLs, especially the LSD, steering box, recent brake calipers and stainless steel lines (us old guys think in decades, not years). Unfortunately the equivalent parts from Chris' Sexy Pants won't be useful to me as backups because of compatibility issues.
My plan was to put the White One up on blocks and remove all this stuff before the serious work even begins on Sexy Pants, so that when things get serious items could be moved directly from Sexy Pants onto the White One (soon to be Sexy Pants II). I'm also assuming that a complete swap will avoid any incompatibility issues that might come up between the '83 and '84 drive trains. Chris will have the intact soul of Sexy Pant's installed in the White One's shell and I will have the soul of the White One taking me to work for the next twenty years.
Sentimental yes, but it also makes good economic sense.
Given the extra labor involved in installing Sexy Pants' running gear into the White One, I suggested to Chris that $300 would be a better price for the shell than $500, but Chris is putting up a fight about this, I could only talk him down to $400. I suggested he see how he feels AFTER all the work is done. Of course anything Chris needs to complete his project (except labor) will most likely be available from the parts shed.
However, being a liberal, I'm always vulnerable to changing my mind.
10-11-09, 06:43 PM
#7812
"I have narrowed down the issue with the GSL-SE! It's a short somewhere in the harness to the AFM. I pinned out the ECU for the AFM, and it all came out 11.5 V, which according to Crit's FSM, is totally wrong. I'm getting way too much juice on 3 of the 4 wires coming from the AFM. I tested my old AFM, and it is all pinning out great, with good resistance all around. So it sounds like I just need to re-do the wiring harness, and all should be well with the SE. Anyone wanna help me tackle such a task?"
Wow, I think we have a rotor head in the making. The dude already knows how to fix an SE that Mazmart couldn't, not a bad start.
Wow, I think we have a rotor head in the making. The dude already knows how to fix an SE that Mazmart couldn't, not a bad start.
Still not too sure on that though. I've got a couple options.
1. Keep the SE with a new harness, sell the 12A broken.
2. Sell the SE with new harness, keep the 12 and rebuild
3. Keep the SE, get a carb for it, sell the 12A broken.
The only downsides to keeping the SE is that the windshield wipers don't work along with the turn signals, and I don't have a clip for the lock on the rear hatch. And the 12A already has the Holley carb with the Holley blue pump, along with other modifications which I really like. So I'd like to keep the 12A, and rebuild, but I need to get the SE running first, so I can balance the cost of a rebuild...
Any other suggestions?
Quad
10-11-09, 07:33 PM
#7813
Quad: When you did the test, was the AFM plugged it to the harness? It needs to be.
I do have a freebie GSL-SE harness if ya need it. It does need an O2 sensor connector spliced back on it, though (had to steal it for another project). If you want it, PM me your address and I'll get it sent out.
Normally these harnesses do not have problems (besides the injector connectors being brittle). The only thing I can think of it maybe you pinched a wire with the UIM when doing the injector connectors.
I do have a freebie GSL-SE harness if ya need it. It does need an O2 sensor connector spliced back on it, though (had to steal it for another project). If you want it, PM me your address and I'll get it sent out.
Normally these harnesses do not have problems (besides the injector connectors being brittle). The only thing I can think of it maybe you pinched a wire with the UIM when doing the injector connectors.
10-11-09, 07:34 PM
#7814
No distributor? No thanks
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I have narrowed down the issue with the GSL-SE! It's a short somewhere in the harness to the AFM. I pinned out the ECU for the AFM, and it all came out 11.5 V, which according to Crit's FSM, is totally wrong. I'm getting way too much juice on 3 of the 4 wires coming from the AFM. I tested my old AFM, and it is all pinning out great, with good resistance all around. So it sounds like I just need to re-do the wiring harness, and all should be well with the SE. Anyone wanna help me tackle such a task?
Quad
Quad
10-11-09, 07:34 PM
#7815
I'm fairly pissed off. I went to replace Wanda's thermostat tonight and one of the t-stat housing bolts snapped...of course... Dunno why I thought it would behave itself?
Anyways..I'm going to assume that the other bolt is probably going to try and snap itself tomorrow when I go to remove it, so, basically I'm prolly gonna either A.) try and remove the remainder of the broken bolts with vice grips... or B.) Just replace the whole 'effing waterpump housing with the one off my spare motor which is going to be stupidly boring, frustrating, potentially further damaging work. Did I mention I have to be at work at 5pm tomorrow?
Seriously... this **** is getting old.
Anyways..I'm going to assume that the other bolt is probably going to try and snap itself tomorrow when I go to remove it, so, basically I'm prolly gonna either A.) try and remove the remainder of the broken bolts with vice grips... or B.) Just replace the whole 'effing waterpump housing with the one off my spare motor which is going to be stupidly boring, frustrating, potentially further damaging work. Did I mention I have to be at work at 5pm tomorrow?
Seriously... this **** is getting old.
10-11-09, 07:50 PM
#7816
Quad: When you did the test, was the AFM plugged it to the harness? It needs to be.
I do have a freebie GSL-SE harness if ya need it. It does need an O2 sensor connector spliced back on it, though (had to steal it for another project). If you want it, PM me your address and I'll get it sent out.
Normally these harnesses do not have problems (besides the injector connectors being brittle). The only thing I can think of it maybe you pinched a wire with the UIM when doing the injector connectors.
I do have a freebie GSL-SE harness if ya need it. It does need an O2 sensor connector spliced back on it, though (had to steal it for another project). If you want it, PM me your address and I'll get it sent out.
Normally these harnesses do not have problems (besides the injector connectors being brittle). The only thing I can think of it maybe you pinched a wire with the UIM when doing the injector connectors.
I can actually bring all of your parts back tomorrow Crit. The 12A will run well enough to get me there. I work at 3.30, so it would have to be semi-early if you're available...
Quad
10-11-09, 08:19 PM
#7817
So Ray, what will you be driving if your car gets torn down? Rebuilds are fun Good thing I still have a set of great 12a housings, I am on the look out for S3 internals now.
I read up on the last page (Not on this site as much) that you guys needed a few hands, if you still do let me know when and I wouldn't mind riding down there. It would be a great mini-meet
Good thing I still have a set of great 12a housings, I am on the look out for S3 internals now.I read up on the last page (Not on this site as much) that you guys needed a few hands, if you still do let me know when and I wouldn't mind riding down there. It would be a great mini-meet
10-11-09, 09:19 PM
#7818
Well it's official. The second bolt on the housing snapped. There's 1/4" or more of the bolts left in the main housing. I'm sure they could be drilled out while the housing is still in the car, but I'm not equipped to cut off the last of the bolts to be able to drill out the holes. I know one thing...If I can get these drilled out, I'm going to be using a bolt with a nut on the other side heavily coated with anti-seize.
What's more disappointing is I have a feeling the P.O. was the last person to change the thermostat...and it doesn't appear he used anti-seize in an attempt to stop things like this from happening.
Who can tell me what I'll need to do this? As it stands, there are days this week I won't be able to use my mom's car to get to work..I need to figure this out quickly.
What's more disappointing is I have a feeling the P.O. was the last person to change the thermostat...and it doesn't appear he used anti-seize in an attempt to stop things like this from happening.
Who can tell me what I'll need to do this? As it stands, there are days this week I won't be able to use my mom's car to get to work..I need to figure this out quickly.
10-11-09, 09:38 PM
#7819
Nectar of the Gods.
If you can not get a hold of the remaining part of the studs and vice grip them out then they will need to be drilled out.
Cut them flush, Start with a small drill in the center. Work your way up with larger drills. Use an easy out system to remove the rest of the stud - OR - Drill just to the tap size and re tap the hole.
To be honest you are better off changing the water pump housing. It would be a quicker job. Easy outs are no guarantee - they sometimes make more work for you by breaking off in the hole.
-billy
If you can not get a hold of the remaining part of the studs and vice grip them out then they will need to be drilled out.
Cut them flush, Start with a small drill in the center. Work your way up with larger drills. Use an easy out system to remove the rest of the stud - OR - Drill just to the tap size and re tap the hole.
To be honest you are better off changing the water pump housing. It would be a quicker job. Easy outs are no guarantee - they sometimes make more work for you by breaking off in the hole.
-billy
10-11-09, 09:41 PM
#7820
Well it's official. The second bolt on the housing snapped. There's 1/4" or more of the bolts left in the main housing. I'm sure they could be drilled out while the housing is still in the car, but I'm not equipped to cut off the last of the bolts to be able to drill out the holes. I know one thing...If I can get these drilled out, I'm going to be using a bolt with a nut on the other side heavily coated with anti-seize.
What's more disappointing is I have a feeling the P.O. was the last person to change the thermostat...and it doesn't appear he used anti-seize in an attempt to stop things like this from happening.
Who can tell me what I'll need to do this? As it stands, there are days this week I won't be able to use my mom's car to get to work..I need to figure this out quickly.
What's more disappointing is I have a feeling the P.O. was the last person to change the thermostat...and it doesn't appear he used anti-seize in an attempt to stop things like this from happening.
Who can tell me what I'll need to do this? As it stands, there are days this week I won't be able to use my mom's car to get to work..I need to figure this out quickly.
10-11-09, 09:46 PM
#7821
Then comes the problem of locating the waterpump to housing and housing to block gaskets in the morning. Obviously it's too late to call autozone, napa, or Sutherlin in search for these things.
I'm debating just going to bed to worrying about it in the morning...which is really all I can do. I am frustrated. Another simple job turned pain in the *** by something that could've been prevented in the first place.
I'm debating just going to bed to worrying about it in the morning...which is really all I can do. I am frustrated. Another simple job turned pain in the *** by something that could've been prevented in the first place.
10-11-09, 10:26 PM
#7824
I'm thinking drilling may be the better option. I may risk doing further damage swapping over the housings, specifically the OMP lines that I'll have to unbolt from the pump. When I pulled the housing from my spare motor earlier, I nearly snapped one of the lines cuz the fittings jerk a bit when the bolts break loose.
Dunno, I'm tired.
Dunno, I'm tired.
10-11-09, 11:18 PM
#7825
No distributor? No thanks
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Yeah, those bolts are always such a bitch. Steel fasteners in aluminum, with electrolysis due to the coolant.... If you guys aren't anti-seizing these bolts when you have them out, you're doing yourself a huge disservice. Not as important for steel 12A pumps, but aluminum water pumps housing make this stuff hugely important.
Kevin, I can bring my harness with me to work tomorrow, which is just down the street from my house. Give me a call when you're close.
Kevin, I can bring my harness with me to work tomorrow, which is just down the street from my house. Give me a call when you're close.