Railgun

So I rarely post threads asking for help on this or that, but I'm tired of screwing around and thought a call to arms would be appropriate at this time...

So I'm asking everyone for a little assistance here in trying to figure out where the issue could be with a pretty big problem I'm having. I'll try to be as descriptive I can in both the symptom and steps I've taken with troubleshooting. I haven't done anything yet as I just got the car back on Sat and didn't want to touch it.

So...I have a BDC built half bridge and a Turblown T04R kit. A Power FC is the brain with an FJO injector driver box in the middle. Stock coils with a Twin Power ignition. CJ Motorsports fuel system comprising of dual walbro pumps feeding a single -8 to the secondary rail with the standard 1600 injectors. That feeds the primary via -6 to top feed 850s. These both return seperately via -6 to the aeromotive FPR and returning via -6. We're monitoring AFRs with the Innovate Tech LC-1/XD-1. This is fed into the PFC as well. I'm also monitoring EGTs. I have the GM 3-bar MAP sensor. The MAP, ignition/coils and ECU are the same from my previous setup, though I'm not ruling anything out.

The problem is that it will not run for crap under seemingly any load. It idles just fine. It revs a little out of gear seemingly fine. Unfortunately I wasn't there when it was trying to get tuned, but it was reported that it would crap out at about 5-6k and NOT rev any higher. EGTs were rising rapidly at that time and AFRs were about 9-10. No matter how much or which direction any fuel or timing moves or any combination of, there's no change in the behavior. That's what really bothers me is that it should do something. Also, it seems that boost wasn't moving as well. I have an 8# spring in the WG, but the controller (profec b spec 2) is set to about 18#. It was reported that it was seeing about 6-8#. Nothing has changed in that respect as well and while playing around last year trying to get a very rough tune, it was boosting just fine.

As a note, before I had the FJO box installed, the tune attempt then produced the same results in that changes to the maps were not affecting the performance at all, almost like the ECU didn't recognize the changes.

Things I've checked thus far...

Wiring to the injectors from the FJO...
-I was concerned about the GZ LIM digging into the injector clips, but I'm still good there. Just for the sake of sanity, I'm going to bust out the schematic and make sure the respective ECU pin is firing the correct injector. I had checked this twice before...but third time's a charm I suppose.

Coils
-Leading is seeing .7 ohms, both trailings .9.

Plugs
-New leadings. They're stock 9s. Trailings are used 11s, but in good shape.

I'm going to rewire the crank triggers. I broke my original clips, so I got new clips and just used butt connectors. I'll properly solder them. Given it's actions, I may replace the MAP sensor too since it almost seems that it's doing the same thing as if it were disconnected. I'm also going to send the injectors to get cleaned...again. When I had my manifold out, there was a bit of oil in the intake track...some on the injector tips (I've since addressed that oil issue). Given the time that it was sitting there, it's possible that the oil may have gummed up the injectors. Perhaps they're opening, but slow/sticky and maybe dumping tons of fuel. Who knows.

Recheck for vac/boost leaks. I did an initial leak test, but I'll redo it and try to get more in depth. But given the issue, I can't fathom how a small leak would produce these results. Perhaps weak power, or weaker than it could/should be, but not this.

Can anyone think of ANY other thing that would be good to check? I like to think that I'm good as far as being mechanically and electrically inclined and I try to be very meticulous when it comes to these things, but this one is escaping me.

Thanks all in advance!

Christian

BDC

Pitching ideas out off the top of my head:

- The tuner doing the Write/Write All or have the Update checkbox checked when making changes?
- Anything having to do w/ the FJO box since it's a part of the operation of the secondaries?
- Map sensor plugged in with a vacuum source? Verify w/ monitor turned on or with a datalog looking at PIM voltage and Boost reading specifically
- Verify continuity of wiring from before and after FJO box to the secondary injector clips? This will double-check wiring splicing if there is any
- Datalogging will verify if there's a component problem w/ the MAP sensor or trigger. It will also show if there's anything goofed w/ the ECU. If everything looks normal there (Inj DC%, RPM, PIM/Boost, Water/Air temps, etc.) yet still doesn't work, then look at the outputs -- coil/ignitor pack, FJO and injector electronics
- If I understand the FJO box correctly, it makes a low impedance injector work properly while be driven by a high impedance injector driver. If so, then it'll be necessary to remove fuel from N*, P11-P20; perhaps by 10% whacks at a time until the AFR's under load come back from a rich condition that would exist assuming everything is working. The base map I used to build your base map comes from a setup that had resistors working on the secondaries ala the popular method so the fuel curves for staged injection reflected that.
- Check knock readings on a datalog; see if anything is 60's and above all the time while in vacuum and especially while attempting to stage all four injectors

If you have a problem with the triggers, you'll notice jitters or some other erratic readings on a datalog under RPM. You could check that to get an idea as to whether or not you need to mess with the trigger harness. I highly doubt you have to, though. That doesn't seem to be a common failure or problem on 3rd gens.

The oil in the intake tract may be more reminiscent of a combination of factory oil metering and the reversion changes from having a high overlap setup (bridgeport). I'm just guessing here, however. It could also be that you may have some seal blow-by on the turbo if you don't have a restrictor in the oil feed line. Yet another guess.

If they're doing this and can get online, and if you can reach me, have them make a datalog of the car running in light load, 3rd or 4th gear, gently going into boost and running up to 4-6psi (if it will). Then, send me that datalog so I can look at it while the car is still strapped down.

B

Railgun

Thanks for the reply, Brian...

To your questions...

-I assume so. They're not new to it so...
-I need to verify that. I assume that since it's driving the primaries OK...but I need to contact them to verify.
-Yes. No change there. I can verify, but it's taking vac from the same source since I got it.
-I've verified after the FJO and will reverify from the ECU all the way through.
-I'm looking at everything at this point.
-That was done. I received a map from Howard since he's running something similar. It was a gas only map, which apparently wasn't that far off from the base map that I already had. But any fuel that was removed didn't do anything anyway.
-Didn't look at knock, but I assume it would be skyrocketing too.

I'm going to rewire the triggers too so. No OMP anymore and it's possible that I'm getting blowby. I need to reconfirm whether it needed one. I can't recall.

I'm swapping out the ignitor tonight to see if that helps. I've replaced the trailing plugs to 9s (they were 11s) so I'm now running stock 9s all around. The plug wires are new, though a tad longer than they need to be. I've been meaning to recut some new ones, but haven't gotten around to it. Perhaps tonight. The coils look good. I have some spare trailings, but would need to get a new leading. Though, the coils themselves seem OK. I can't recall whether I had the relocation kit in place with my old setup or not, but in the rebuild process, I had cleaned up a lot of things, including the ignitor. I'll concentrate on that to ensure that my ground is good and so on.

Many threads I had found with somewhat similar issues just died off. There was no resolution mentioned other than one. dgeesman had something similar that turned out to be injectors. One was stuck closed and one was leaking. That's the only result I found.

Barry Bordes

Pull so fuel out till AFRs are high 10s low 11s. My TwinPower has trouble firing low 10s and any 9s.
Barry

Railgun

I wish it were that simple.

Railgun

So after checking plugs, plug wires, grounds, coils (though I didn't swap out the leading), ignitor, injectors, and every other wire I can find, I'm still getting the same thing. It will NOT rev past 4k. The logs show the secondaries coming online at about 3500 but the primaries don't seem to taper off. I thought they did. I also tested (visually) for any apparent coil leaks and didn't see anything. I also bypassed the twin power and had the same results.

For those that may be able to see something better than me, here's the log. Towards the bottom is where the 4k wall is. And no, it wasn't completely to the floor for those looking at the TPS voltage.

And here's the map too.

I'm getting an RMA # from Apex and getting this thing tested. That's the last thing I can think of at this point.

GoodfellaFD3S

iTrader: (213)

Power FC=Fubar'ed.

Gorilla RE

iTrader: (1)

Very rare.....

GoodfellaFD3S

iTrader: (213)

Yo big J,

not as rare as I used to think. I've heard quite a few stories of malfunctioning pfc's lately.....so when do I get another piggyback ride ?

Gorilla RE

iTrader: (1)

Just as soon as you come down here and jump on BIG BOY ..........

Also, this is interesting because the only "bad" pfc I've seen after all these years was one that was one that was ruined by the owner. He was probing it with a power-prob and fried it . Hmmmm maybe your getting all the bad ones yank !

-J

Railgun

So, it seems (so far anyway) that this issue was fuel. Thanks to billzrx7. Being that I'm just really getting into tuning I missed a couple of things. Like the near 50% duty cycles at 4k with no load.

So we ID'd a small range of cells that I was at around that RPM and dropped 30% fuel. Right past and hit 6k no problem. I was under the impression that no matter which direction fuel went, it was the same issue. Only thing is that I didn't know was how MUCH in those directions it was going. So it just wasn't enough apparently.

So progress there and I'm thinking that things are good to go. This goes to show that even with similar setups, fuel maps can be WAY off from each other.

Barry Bordes

Your Data doesn't show wide band readings.

How is your Map Watch set up? This is the way I set mine up.

On the Log, notice how injectior transition can be diagnosed graphically.

Barry

Railgun

Something happened to the WB so I need to reset it up. I'm eye balling the gauge at the moment. I have set that up like you in the past, but in this case, I haven't bothered yet. But the odd thing here was that the O2 wasn't reading much less than about 10 anyway so...at the time it didn't seem like it was too rich, though the EGTs were high, which I suppose was a tell tale sign enough.

What version are you running to get the MAP and RPM reading on your map?

Barry Bordes

I have been running v1.120.
Barry

cewrx7r1

iTrader: (2)

I finally looked at your map, and had to laugh!

If you had run a re-calc (which you should do for each AFR fuel tune change), you would have seen that your fuel went insanely rich.

Example: my 550/1600 with FJO driver, has 18.61 ms in P18,N17. I probably make close to 400 whp there at 15.5psi boost, almost stock ports.

Your re-calc map has 80.444 ms at P18,N17. If fuel to hp was linear, you would make 1729 whp there.

How could you miss that?

Railgun

I wasn't looking at it, that's how. As I mentioned, I had been under the impression that it wasn't the case since it was allegedly moved and it wasn't responding one way or another. Needless to say, I'm looking at it now and have realized that it was the case. I didn't create the map nor have I started to do any tuning myself until now.

I hadn't compared this to my old map. Didn't see the need to. But needless to say, I'm going to be doing just about everything myself from here on out. I've learned a lot to this point.