Rotary Aviation seals, a 10,000 km report.....
08-12-04, 02:54 AM
#204
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Originally Posted by rxeng
I have done a back to back test with these apex seals compared to stock Mazda ones in the exact same engine in the exact same car & proven that the stock Mazda apex seal will withstand a hell of a lot more "abuse" than the RA ones.
08-12-04, 08:29 AM
#205
Lives on the Forum
Originally Posted by kabooski
a mistuned car will break apex seals
these bend
I rather have bend over break and damage my parts
these bend
I rather have bend over break and damage my parts
Both are bad.
Bend means deflection and changes in tolerance.
Bending means warping, and warping means possibly siezing or rubbing in the groove.
Possibility #1 - seal siezes in the groove, and you lose compression in two rotors with huge blow-by into the next chamber.
Possibility #2 - seal warps and rubs and increases groove clearance. Increased groove clearance means more blow-by and loss of compression. Gradual loss of power ensures. If the groove clearance gets excessive, the seal can jam and kill the engine just as bad.
-Ted
08-13-04, 10:17 AM
#207
Original Gangster/Rotary!
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Originally Posted by 93BlackFD
water injection was working properly
?
08-13-04, 04:06 PM
#209
Original Gangster/Rotary!
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Originally Posted by 93BlackFD
100octane actually, detonation occurred because coolant hose popped off and created a hot spot
09-07-04, 03:30 PM
#211
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so what's the verdict?
Any one has more than 20K or 30K of hard miles on these seals yet? Any signs of premature wear on the seals or the housings?
I'd really like to konw more....
thanks,
Fred
I'd really like to konw more....
thanks,
Fred
09-07-04, 11:24 PM
#212
well i am getting a few miles on the ra seals now in my 13b supercharger rx2
I have had some really good detonations a few times while trying to get
the carb setup.
Junk holly carbs!
did a compression test after the last tuning session and all is ok.
will be doing another compression test, the morning after the night before
ok so i was pushing the old rx2 a little and might have done some damage this time
since it quite running a couple times tonight before i made it home and let it die
on the driveway
hope its just more carb problems.
will post compression results tomorrow if i have time.
matt
I have had some really good detonations a few times while trying to get
the carb setup.
Junk holly carbs!
did a compression test after the last tuning session and all is ok.
will be doing another compression test, the morning after the night before
ok so i was pushing the old rx2 a little and might have done some damage this time
since it quite running a couple times tonight before i made it home and let it die
on the driveway
hope its just more carb problems.
will post compression results tomorrow if i have time.
matt
09-15-04, 08:34 AM
#216
20B N/A Wide Body FC3S
Originally Posted by now
I have never liked apex seals with the large end piece.
The problem as i see it is that as the seal thermally expands
it displaces the corner piece in the only direction it can go,
which is up and away from the rotor housing, now with the
mazda small corner piece this is not a big deal because the
corner piece is so small the amount of compression lost due
to the small corner piece moving up equates to a very small
amount , but the larger corner piece allows almost a centimeter
of area to loose compression through, which could account
for no compression while hot.
I can not understand why everyone insists on making large corner pieces
I have heard that they reduce the wear line that the small piece
causes, but does it really matter if there is a little wear line at the
edge, or is it better some how with a wear line a centimeter
away from the edge?
I believe that the AR seals are a very good product but added
end clearance might be needed in some applications, and i wish
that the makers would do a news release with the recommended
clearances.
my 2 cents
matt
The problem as i see it is that as the seal thermally expands
it displaces the corner piece in the only direction it can go,
which is up and away from the rotor housing, now with the
mazda small corner piece this is not a big deal because the
corner piece is so small the amount of compression lost due
to the small corner piece moving up equates to a very small
amount , but the larger corner piece allows almost a centimeter
of area to loose compression through, which could account
for no compression while hot.
I can not understand why everyone insists on making large corner pieces
I have heard that they reduce the wear line that the small piece
causes, but does it really matter if there is a little wear line at the
edge, or is it better some how with a wear line a centimeter
away from the edge?
I believe that the AR seals are a very good product but added
end clearance might be needed in some applications, and i wish
that the makers would do a news release with the recommended
clearances.
my 2 cents
matt
1. You can use these types of seals in full Bridge Ported engines with out worrying about the seal tipping in to the bridge and destroying your engine. #2. It is way way way easier to reuse these types of seals in a rebuild if they are still good because the corner assist piece will stay in place unlike using the small assist piece that you would have to super glue to the main part of the apex seal... Just for reference I have built 4 engines in the last year with these seals and all of them are kicking *** and have no starting problems. 3 of them are on side ported engines of which 2 are running T04S's at 1.2kgcm boost and one has a To4E at 1.1 kg boost, the other one is a stock rebuild. The only issue I've seen is that they seem to take a tad bit longer to break in and the fact that some of these guys have yet to break them with the way they beat on their cars impresses the hell out of me. I just finished another engine that’s going in a car now and have another to build next week that I will also be using the RA seals in. The one I'm working on now is a large side port with a to4s again and the other will be a decent sized side port and stock turbo's running nonseq.
Last edited by Dragon; 09-15-04 at 08:36 AM.
09-15-04, 10:02 AM
#217
built my own engine
and just for your reference, the newer rotary aviation seals have considerably smaller corner pieces, it was the first thing i noticed when i received them
09-15-04, 10:30 PM
#218
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Originally Posted by 93BlackFD
and just for your reference, the newer rotary aviation seals have considerably smaller corner pieces, it was the first thing i noticed when i received them
Still a few inconsistencies on the newer seal, on the reliefs for the springs on the underneath, some are not deep enough , so the spring end doesn't sit deep enough, making slipping the long spring over the short difficult....
Noticed the srings and the seals are magnetic....paper clips were stuck to them on my table..
The springs were also somewhat flat compared to the mazda oem's I had sitting here, I arched them to the spec in the book before installing them...
I would like to see these seals offered in one piece with a some suggested tolerances for running them in a full bridge, regardless of the width of the side peice, I am not to hot on the idea of a loose side peice with a full bridge, but I can see what Dragon means by not having the wide corner peice tip back into the port..Max
09-28-04, 09:39 PM
#219
Lives on the Forum
My take on them...
I got a customer who was willing to try them on his '90 FC 13BT.
He didn't want to pay the $600 price tag for Mazda OEM stuff, so the $182 RA option was very attractive.
Sorry, I don't have any direct experience with mileage.
This is just direct experience with the initial exposure to these seals.
Yeah, it looks like the triangle corner assist piece has been shortened - they are almost the size of stock Mazda OEM seals.
The machining consistency from seal to seal in our set was not even funny.
It looked like odd-numbers seals were about the same length, and the even-numbered seals were about the same length.
The odd versus even seals were almost 1mm difference in (longer piece) seal length.
I guess that's why they have stamped(?) numbers to make sure you use the proper "pair".
I haven't closely examined the number stampings, but I wonder if it's a true stamping or drilled marks?
If they are true stampings, I'd be really worried about warping or possible damage from the stamping process.
Looking at the machining, there looks like to be random scratches at all angles.
This looks like hand finishing?
Bottom line - these RA seals do not come close to stock OEM Mazda in terms of machining consistency.
If I had the money, I'd still prefer to go stock OEM Mazda.
But, due to the pricing, I can see the RA seals being a very attractive option.
We're still waiting for some bearings to get this motor up and running.
Target is to break 400hp at the wheels on pump gas, so we'll see how well ours holds up...
-Ted
I got a customer who was willing to try them on his '90 FC 13BT.
He didn't want to pay the $600 price tag for Mazda OEM stuff, so the $182 RA option was very attractive.
Sorry, I don't have any direct experience with mileage.
This is just direct experience with the initial exposure to these seals.
Yeah, it looks like the triangle corner assist piece has been shortened - they are almost the size of stock Mazda OEM seals.
The machining consistency from seal to seal in our set was not even funny.
It looked like odd-numbers seals were about the same length, and the even-numbered seals were about the same length.
The odd versus even seals were almost 1mm difference in (longer piece) seal length.
I guess that's why they have stamped(?) numbers to make sure you use the proper "pair".
I haven't closely examined the number stampings, but I wonder if it's a true stamping or drilled marks?
If they are true stampings, I'd be really worried about warping or possible damage from the stamping process.
Looking at the machining, there looks like to be random scratches at all angles.
This looks like hand finishing?
Bottom line - these RA seals do not come close to stock OEM Mazda in terms of machining consistency.
If I had the money, I'd still prefer to go stock OEM Mazda.
But, due to the pricing, I can see the RA seals being a very attractive option.
We're still waiting for some bearings to get this motor up and running.
Target is to break 400hp at the wheels on pump gas, so we'll see how well ours holds up...
-Ted
10-01-04, 10:17 PM
#220
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I have been using the earlier (i.e. hand written numbers) in my engine rebuild for about 18 months now with absolutely no problems. I also do not have any probs cold or hot start. I will check the compression soon for further feedback.
Overall I am thoroughly impressed and continue to use the current etched RA 2pc 2mm seals in about 4 engines rebuilds to date with no customer complaints, in fact only highly positive comments. I would say well done to RA for making a fantastic product and can only assume that you were unlucky or the seals are not the cause of your troubles.
Overall I am thoroughly impressed and continue to use the current etched RA 2pc 2mm seals in about 4 engines rebuilds to date with no customer complaints, in fact only highly positive comments. I would say well done to RA for making a fantastic product and can only assume that you were unlucky or the seals are not the cause of your troubles.
10-25-04, 02:40 AM
#223
Original Gangster/Rotary!
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Originally Posted by yodaddy
i currently have approx. 4000 miles on my RA seals and have detonated twice. they are holding up incredibly well and i have no starting issues.
(b) more importantly, *why* have you detonated twice? Who is tuning your car, Ray Charles
?
10-25-04, 02:50 AM
#224
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Originally Posted by GoodfellaFD3S
(a) How do you know that you have detonated twice?
(b) more importantly, *why* have you detonated twice? Who is tuning your car, Ray Charles?
(b) more importantly, *why* have you detonated twice? Who is tuning your car, Ray Charles
?haha!! Ray Charles......
i would like to know too!
10-25-04, 08:37 AM
#225
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
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I use only rotary aviation seals and have never seen this problem with any of the engines I have built with them.I have an engine that I built for a customer that has all but 30,000 miles on it now and I have the car doing some work to it now seen this post and decided to do a compression test 100,100,100 front 100,100,100 rear also I was doing a header on the car and got to inspect the seal groove and there is no abnormal wear that would not be there with 30.000 miles on it. sorry to hear about your problem but it sounds like a build problem not a seal problem.If you remember what your housings looked like when you took apart the engine that the rotor housings came from how much carbon was there at the spark plug area if it was more than 1 inch high and the whole way across the housing then you used a bad housing. alot of people do not know to look at this when dissassembling.When building you have to know what used parts are good and also there are alot more parts other than apex seals that will cause compression loss sounds to me like you have a side seal clearance problem.