Rotary Aviation seals, a 10,000 km report.....
10-25-04, 03:16 PM
#226
Originally Posted by rotary1
If you remember what your housings looked like when you took apart the engine that the rotor housings came from how much carbon was there at the spark plug area if it was more than 1 inch high and the whole way across the housing then you used a bad housing. alot of people do not know to look at this when dissassembling.
This comment confuses me "1 inch high and the whole way across the housing". Would you have any previous rebuild pics showing what your talking about?
10-25-04, 04:04 PM
#227
Original Gangster/Rotary!
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Originally Posted by t-von
This comment confuses me "1 inch high and the whole way across the housing". Would you have any previous rebuild pics showing what your talking about?
Rich
10-25-04, 08:38 PM
#228
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Well I have seen alot that were colored from trailing to leading and the whole way across,but then agin I have a stack of rotor housings that are no good 8 feet tall.
11-09-04, 04:52 PM
#229
so ...no time for this
THX! ... RAs / RX-8 Apex Seals
hi to all,
Just would like to thx you all for all this great info. I'm from PR and there are a lot of Race (Rotary & Piston) cars down here. The racing atmosphere is just CRACY here as we don't have all restrictions as you are.
About the Apex seals: People here usually prefer OME 2mm or 3mm Mazda seals over Atkins or Hurleys. We are experimenting now with the RAs. My experience: I blew a 10K-NEW engine with the OEM Mazda 2mm 3-pieces seals in my first rebuild. During the 0K-10K period, not a single problem with anything. I dynoed 350 whp and 12.5 1/4-mile with stock twins/pump gas. I then went to single (T70). While tuning in the single phase the engine blew. It was caused due to an over boost run at 17 psi (boost control valve problem)...the base map was programmed to fuel up just to 14 psi). Although it was tunning accident, I was frustrated due the fact that just a super stupid tiny corner of one of the the apex seals caused the incident. It was in the rear rotor ... and even more frustrating, the little piece mark all around the housing making it useless. I never pushed the Mazda seal to the limit (although my limit would be between 18-28 psi). However, it is worth to think about seals that may not blown your engine while tuning, so that's I will try RAs. I just got them and they look well machined (have not measure them yet). I decided to go with new housings for my next rebuild. Also, I have two friends that had blown Mazda's and Atskins in similar situations (detonation) and they are now with RAs with no problems yet. I don't know how they noticed it but one of them told me that the car already detonated twice and he is confident about that other apex seal would have blown under the same circumstances. So, overall, I have not heard bad news in PR about the RAs seals.
BTW, there are two other friends I know that are currently using RX-8 seals. They are a 2-piece thinner design with longer springs. One of them is a racing drag car that I personally saw it dynoing 647 whp with a lot more than 10 passes. They have not blew/chk them yet but have not reported any problems. The other one tried them in an FD and blown them while tuning the car. So it looks to me like is a good seal if the ECU is WELL programmed/tuned. I will probably go with the RX-8s next if something goes wrong with the RAs. I will let you informed about my car (FD3S) and everything else. Has anyone tried the RX-8s?
thx!
Just would like to thx you all for all this great info. I'm from PR and there are a lot of Race (Rotary & Piston) cars down here. The racing atmosphere is just CRACY here as we don't have all restrictions as you are.
About the Apex seals: People here usually prefer OME 2mm or 3mm Mazda seals over Atkins or Hurleys. We are experimenting now with the RAs. My experience: I blew a 10K-NEW engine with the OEM Mazda 2mm 3-pieces seals in my first rebuild. During the 0K-10K period, not a single problem with anything. I dynoed 350 whp and 12.5 1/4-mile with stock twins/pump gas. I then went to single (T70). While tuning in the single phase the engine blew. It was caused due to an over boost run at 17 psi (boost control valve problem)...the base map was programmed to fuel up just to 14 psi). Although it was tunning accident, I was frustrated due the fact that just a super stupid tiny corner of one of the the apex seals caused the incident. It was in the rear rotor ... and even more frustrating, the little piece mark all around the housing making it useless. I never pushed the Mazda seal to the limit (although my limit would be between 18-28 psi). However, it is worth to think about seals that may not blown your engine while tuning, so that's I will try RAs. I just got them and they look well machined (have not measure them yet). I decided to go with new housings for my next rebuild. Also, I have two friends that had blown Mazda's and Atskins in similar situations (detonation) and they are now with RAs with no problems yet. I don't know how they noticed it but one of them told me that the car already detonated twice and he is confident about that other apex seal would have blown under the same circumstances. So, overall, I have not heard bad news in PR about the RAs seals.
BTW, there are two other friends I know that are currently using RX-8 seals. They are a 2-piece thinner design with longer springs. One of them is a racing drag car that I personally saw it dynoing 647 whp with a lot more than 10 passes. They have not blew/chk them yet but have not reported any problems. The other one tried them in an FD and blown them while tuning the car. So it looks to me like is a good seal if the ECU is WELL programmed/tuned. I will probably go with the RX-8s next if something goes wrong with the RAs. I will let you informed about my car (FD3S) and everything else. Has anyone tried the RX-8s?
thx!
11-09-04, 08:31 PM
#230
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Originally Posted by rotary1
I use only rotary aviation seals and have never seen this problem with any of the engines I have built with them.I have an engine that I built for a customer that has all but 30,000 miles on it now and I have the car doing some work to it now seen this post and decided to do a compression test 100,100,100 front 100,100,100 rear also I was doing a header on the car and got to inspect the seal groove and there is no abnormal wear that would not be there with 30.000 miles on it. sorry to hear about your problem but it sounds like a build problem not a seal problem.If you remember what your housings looked like when you took apart the engine that the rotor housings came from how much carbon was there at the spark plug area if it was more than 1 inch high and the whole way across the housing then you used a bad housing. alot of people do not know to look at this when dissassembling.When building you have to know what used parts are good and also there are alot more parts other than apex seals that will cause compression loss sounds to me like you have a side seal clearance problem.
I have one motor now running with the new RA seals, I will test them over the next while, this motor is no lightweight either, its partially bridged with a T51 turbo, among other things..max
11-09-04, 09:10 PM
#231
Lives on the Forum
More data points...
The RA seals are significantly heavier than the stock OEM Mazda seals.
I wish I could've gotten an accurate weight off of them, but the one set we're messing with just got sealed up in a rebuild right now.
I did managed to measure them though.
Interesting...
The measured an average of 3.125" on a dial caliper.
3.125" x 2.54 = 79.375mm
The old stock 2mm, 3-piece apex seals used to come in 80.10mm lengths, IIRC.
We used to knock them down to a "race length" of 79.90mm, so the RA seals are narrower than the race lengths.
I haven't measured any of the newer seals - 2 or 3 piece Mazda OEM seals.
We've blown an unmolested 2-piece OEM Mazda seal, and it chipped the exposed "corner" of the long piece.
This makes sense cause the longer seal would jack the triangle assist piece underneath the longer piece and allow that particular apex seal "corner" to chip easily under detonation
I've detonated my motor hard twice at least with the 79.90mm shortened stock Mazda 3-piece 2mm apex seals with no failure - partially due to the shortened seal?
With the length of the RA seals, this might be why they are more detonation resistant?
-Ted
The RA seals are significantly heavier than the stock OEM Mazda seals.
I wish I could've gotten an accurate weight off of them, but the one set we're messing with just got sealed up in a rebuild right now.
I did managed to measure them though.
Interesting...
The measured an average of 3.125" on a dial caliper.
3.125" x 2.54 = 79.375mm
The old stock 2mm, 3-piece apex seals used to come in 80.10mm lengths, IIRC.
We used to knock them down to a "race length" of 79.90mm, so the RA seals are narrower than the race lengths.
I haven't measured any of the newer seals - 2 or 3 piece Mazda OEM seals.
We've blown an unmolested 2-piece OEM Mazda seal, and it chipped the exposed "corner" of the long piece.
This makes sense cause the longer seal would jack the triangle assist piece underneath the longer piece and allow that particular apex seal "corner" to chip easily under detonation
I've detonated my motor hard twice at least with the 79.90mm shortened stock Mazda 3-piece 2mm apex seals with no failure - partially due to the shortened seal?
With the length of the RA seals, this might be why they are more detonation resistant?
-Ted
11-10-04, 07:03 PM
#232
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Originally Posted by GoodfellaFD3S
(a) How do you know that you have detonated twice?
(b) more importantly, *why* have you detonated twice? Who is tuning your car, Ray Charles
?
(b) more importantly, *why* have you detonated twice? Who is tuning your car, Ray Charles
?
11-11-04, 02:30 PM
#233
so ...no time for this
Originally Posted by RETed
More data points...
The RA seals are significantly heavier than the stock OEM Mazda seals.
I wish I could've gotten an accurate weight off of them, but the one set we're messing with just got sealed up in a rebuild right now.
I did managed to measure them though.
Interesting...
The measured an average of 3.125" on a dial caliper.
3.125" x 2.54 = 79.375mm
The old stock 2mm, 3-piece apex seals used to come in 80.10mm lengths, IIRC.
We used to knock them down to a "race length" of 79.90mm, so the RA seals are narrower than the race lengths.
I haven't measured any of the newer seals - 2 or 3 piece Mazda OEM seals.
We've blown an unmolested 2-piece OEM Mazda seal, and it chipped the exposed "corner" of the long piece.
This makes sense cause the longer seal would jack the triangle assist piece underneath the longer piece and allow that particular apex seal "corner" to chip easily under detonation
I've detonated my motor hard twice at least with the 79.90mm shortened stock Mazda 3-piece 2mm apex seals with no failure - partially due to the shortened seal?
With the length of the RA seals, this might be why they are more detonation resistant?
-Ted
The RA seals are significantly heavier than the stock OEM Mazda seals.
I wish I could've gotten an accurate weight off of them, but the one set we're messing with just got sealed up in a rebuild right now.
I did managed to measure them though.
Interesting...
The measured an average of 3.125" on a dial caliper.
3.125" x 2.54 = 79.375mm
The old stock 2mm, 3-piece apex seals used to come in 80.10mm lengths, IIRC.
We used to knock them down to a "race length" of 79.90mm, so the RA seals are narrower than the race lengths.
I haven't measured any of the newer seals - 2 or 3 piece Mazda OEM seals.
We've blown an unmolested 2-piece OEM Mazda seal, and it chipped the exposed "corner" of the long piece.
This makes sense cause the longer seal would jack the triangle assist piece underneath the longer piece and allow that particular apex seal "corner" to chip easily under detonation
I've detonated my motor hard twice at least with the 79.90mm shortened stock Mazda 3-piece 2mm apex seals with no failure - partially due to the shortened seal?
With the length of the RA seals, this might be why they are more detonation resistant?
-Ted
Dimensions:
UNIT = (mm)
Ave upper length = 78.595
Hi = 78.64
Lo = 78.52
Thickness = 1.94 (All)
Ave lower length = 70.505
Hi = 70.62
Lo = 70.42
Ave Center Height = 7.92
Hi = 7.93
Lo = 7.91
Ave Height (X2) = 8.3516
Hi = 8.37
Lo = 8.33
Ave Corner Height = 9.36
Hi = 9.39
Lo = 9.34
Weight:
UNIT (g)
Ave = 8.223083
Hi = 8.2356
Lo = 8.2182
Mazda OEM seal weights?
11-12-04, 05:24 PM
#234
Originally Posted by RETed
More data points...
The RA seals are significantly heavier than the stock OEM Mazda seals.
I wish I could've gotten an accurate weight off of them, but the one set we're messing with just got sealed up in a rebuild right now.
-Ted
The RA seals are significantly heavier than the stock OEM Mazda seals.
I wish I could've gotten an accurate weight off of them, but the one set we're messing with just got sealed up in a rebuild right now.
-Ted
11-12-04, 07:01 PM
#236
Lives on the Forum
Originally Posted by t-von
Hmm do you think that the extra weight will cause excessive wear of the rotor housing? I guess to whom ever runs these seals should add some remix to help lub things up a little more.
Since there was talk about early batches having problems seizing in the grooves.
Maybe the extra weight was causing more friction into the rotor housing surface upon rotation at speed?
This is ALL theoretical at this point!
BTW, I have a set of OEM Mazda seals on order, so I'll get the weights off of those when they come in, if they are still needed.
-Ted
11-13-04, 01:28 AM
#237
Displacement > Boost
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I saw the wear that the RA seals caused on my 6 port S4 NA engine after 7k *hard* miles, and it didn't look out of the ordinary. I did have a ton of carbon scoring for some reason, probably due to Wal Mart super-tech (cheap) premix causing all the carbon caking that was on my rotors.
11-13-04, 06:14 AM
#238
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Originally Posted by RETed
More data points...
The RA seals are significantly heavier than the stock OEM Mazda seals.
I wish I could've gotten an accurate weight off of them, but the one set we're messing with just got sealed up in a rebuild right now.
The RA seals are significantly heavier than the stock OEM Mazda seals.
I wish I could've gotten an accurate weight off of them, but the one set we're messing with just got sealed up in a rebuild right now.
Wait, how can this be? the density of iron/steel is almost exactly the same,.. unless there using some crazy stainless alloy of some sort,.. or not using steel? Even if the seals were stainless steel insted of iron/steel were talking like half a gram...
The negative effect this would have would be lowering the seal float rpm....
11-13-04, 08:38 AM
#239
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Its still an iron compound since they are magnetic...All the pieces including the springs are magnetic as well... Someone with the atkins seal should test them and see if they are magnetic, I am starting to think all these aftermarket seals are coming from the same place...Max
11-14-04, 06:18 AM
#241
Lives on the Forum
Originally Posted by drago86
Wait, how can this be? the density of iron/steel is almost exactly the same,.. unless there using some crazy stainless alloy of some sort,.. or not using steel? Even if the seals were stainless steel insted of iron/steel were talking like half a gram...
The negative effect this would have would be lowering the seal float rpm....
The negative effect this would have would be lowering the seal float rpm....
I gotta go dig up the SAE papers on it and double-check...
-Ted
11-20-04, 05:42 PM
#242
so ...no time for this
Max... how is your engine going?
Originally Posted by Maxthe7man
Before more people keep adding stuff like this to this thread.. I should add that I eventually did get an email apology from Rotary aviation for my "bum" seals, and did get 2 sets of their revamped seals to replace the earlier seals that did have machining problems, and varying tolerances.. It was not a "build problem" nor a side seal problem, it was a Apex seal problem, that has been addressed....
I have one motor now running with the new RA seals, I will test them over the next while, this motor is no lightweight either, its partially bridged with a T51 turbo, among other things..max
I have one motor now running with the new RA seals, I will test them over the next while, this motor is no lightweight either, its partially bridged with a T51 turbo, among other things..max
11-20-04, 06:52 PM
#244
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Originally Posted by AImec Racing
Max... how is your engine going?
The vacuum is good right now to...But I am not about to jump back on the bandwagon yet, as this is how my first motor started out as well, it ran very well from the beginning, but at around 9000 km's it started doing funky starts...I know everything was good when it went together, only the future will tell... In the back of my mind though, I kinda wish I had used the oem mazda seals in this build..I have two sets, one in this engine, and another decorating my coffee table, which is where I think they will stay...Max
11-20-04, 07:51 PM
#245
Originally Posted by Maxthe7man
So far so good, I really can't beleive it starts as good as it does for a fresh motor with 1600cc primary injectors...
The vacuum is good right now to...But I am not about to jump back on the bandwagon yet, as this is how my first motor started out as well, it ran very well from the beginning, but at around 9000 km's it started doing funky starts...I know everything was good when it went together, only the future will tell... In the back of my mind though, I kinda wish I had used the oem mazda seals in this build..I have two sets, one in this engine, and another decorating my coffee table, which is where I think they will stay...Max
The vacuum is good right now to...But I am not about to jump back on the bandwagon yet, as this is how my first motor started out as well, it ran very well from the beginning, but at around 9000 km's it started doing funky starts...I know everything was good when it went together, only the future will tell... In the back of my mind though, I kinda wish I had used the oem mazda seals in this build..I have two sets, one in this engine, and another decorating my coffee table, which is where I think they will stay...Max
11-20-04, 08:13 PM
#247
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Originally Posted by the_glass_man
You simply can't beat the OEM seals. But if you have to make a decision based on price, it's hard to argue against the RA seals.
11-20-04, 10:28 PM
#248
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Originally Posted by Fatman0203
Doesnt the OEM not make the 3 piece seals anymore?
11-20-04, 11:19 PM
#249
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My results compression wise has always been good with the mazda seals.. To be honest every high hp car I saw in Japan was running stock oem seals, even the endurance road race cars as well as the drag cars, a few cars ran the super bling NB seals, but for the most part it was all oem seals, even the 2 piecer's from PP 600 hp 3 rotors to 600+rwhp 13b-rew's running 25+ psi of boost...The thing about the oem'ers is that they were all totally identical in length/width/hieght even when I had 12 seals lined up in a row, they were exactly the same, and that precision means every seal is going to fit right, it much easier to blueprint a motor, and have all faces of the rotors, and both rotors have the same compression when the continuity is there in the machining, which means more power, a smoother motor, and an easier tuning motor.. If you are tuning with a pfc with the knock readout, and you have one face on one rotor that is 110, a couple of others in the 90's and one in the 80's, the a/fs and the timing have to be set generally for the worst sealing face or the best sealing face, if you jack a bunch of timing in to compensate for low compression, its gonna probably ping on the high compression face and blow the motor..variances and tolerances shouldn't be all over the place on engine parts, they should be exact...Max
11-21-04, 12:13 AM
#250
Laying Down Rotary Law
Ok here is my review
I just put 100 miles on my new motor so far
with RA seals w/ stock OEM springs
Start up- no issues
even after a hour or 2 of driving around
the car starts right up..
So far so good
A+ for RA
I just put 100 miles on my new motor so far
with RA seals w/ stock OEM springs
Start up- no issues
even after a hour or 2 of driving around
the car starts right up..
So far so good
A+ for RA