Glassman

iTrader: (1)

There was an extensive thread on this but I could not find it.

Anyway we'll start a new one here continuing where we left off.

Here's the pics of the housings we did. It's the same shot getting progressively brighter.





Last update was making a fixture to re-chrome a matched pair of housings.


The fixture we're making has been more problematic than expected so we've decided to scrap the origional design in favor of a new design that will eliminate previous problems. We've learned a lot from messing with this thing and the new fixture will be much more functional with faster changes possible. Really it comes down to throwing more money at it, so once my parts order is completed I can look at moving forward with the new design.

January 24 2011 - Ok, well we dished out some more $1000's and all our pcs are on order for the fixture. We should have everything in a couple of weeks. Then off to the machine shop and then some welding etc.

Hopefully we'll have some results and some housings done in a couple of months time or less.

We really want to get this going so I'll be pusing for sooner. The last step in finishing this project is underway so get ready everyone and dig out those housings you've been hanging onto. Once we run a few pairs we will be looking for those interested in beta testing.

peejay

I can guarantee a minimum of 20k miles in a year's time if you need longer-term testing. 13B or 12A. Have housings available that have not suffered face damage, just wear. I think I'm up to eight or ten 12A housings (not counting damaged ones) and four extra FC-style 13B housings...

rex3

iTrader: (2)

Do you have an estimated price yet?

Glassman

iTrader: (1)

Perfect!

How about testing both 12A and 13B LOL

Glassman

iTrader: (1)

Not yet but we're hoping for half of new if that is possible. We wont know until the fxture is finished and some housings are done in them so we can finalise the cost.

mono4lamar

iTrader: (32)

How are you coping with housings with cracked plug lands? I know of another company doing the same thing you're doing

Glassman

iTrader: (1)

Yup I know who you mean. Difference is we've already got 3+ yrs in testing. I could pump out housings tomorrow if you want some but they wouldn't be just how we want them or nearly as fast of turn around as we want.

I imagine all sorts of others will jump on the re-chrome bandwagon now that we've shown everyone it can be done properly. I mean others have been trying to get to this for 30+ years

I'll price out a pair of FD housings tomorrow for you and if you want to cover the shipping both ways they're yours but they won't be completely perfect.

bumpstart

well done sven !
wish i was closer,, as i have nearly a dozen canditate housings
but unfortunately perth oz is further from alberta than Ulaanbaatar is

Glassman

iTrader: (1)

Thanks mate! You know oz is the first place we will set-up shop once this is going for a while
Maybe a large crate of re-chromed housings wouldn't be too expensive shipped there in the meantime???

dj55b

iTrader: (2)

Nice! I'm interested in some 12a ones if the price is right ... I'll be undergoing an engine build within the next two months ... its will start out life as NA and moving on to a custom charger using a rotrex unit.

I drive the **** out of mine engines also if testing is also needed. I do quite a few track days, along with daily drive it, I do about 17000 miles a year.

Glassman

iTrader: (1)

I'll be going to see my guy within the hour and we'll get this moving along.
I'll post back here with the details

patman

iTrader: (3)

i might be interested in some for the 20b, but im not in a hurry unless you want to discount them for testing purposes.

Glassman

iTrader: (1)

I'm just working out the details and will post soon on what I've come up with.

I do believe you will be happy!

Glassman

iTrader: (1)

Ok, here's the skinny.

Taking into account those who want to participate we've had to consider a few things.
#1 your participation is worth something to us.
#2 potential of actually getting data back from participants
#3 a minimum # of housings needed to proceed
#4 liability

1) We feel that anyone’s involvement should come with some kind of recompense so we've decided to offer them below what our goal is of half of new. New being based on what the average shop would pay for them. Even with the cost being much higher without being set-up for production. This would be your recompense.

2) We realise that we may not get all the kind of data we want from this. My experience tells me that no matter what is promised; seldom do people actually come through with details. So this still leaves an area that needs to be resolved. I see 2 options for this. The first option is to settle for what ever people want to offer for data and let it go at that. Obviously this would be less desirable for us but then there are no expectations on either party. The other option is to charge an additional $100 per housing which would be reimbursed upon receiving proper data. This way we are more assured to get what we want from this. Option 2 would likely come with some other benefits in the way of first dibs and/or perhaps special pricing on initial order or over a period of time. It would likely include options for testing other developments we have cooking in the future.

3) We need a minimum of 12 housings to proceed, more than that is ok too.

4) Participants would need to sign a waiver for all liability including; loss, damage, injury etc. This has never been done so we will NOT be responsible for any expected or imagined result. Having said that our ultimate goal is to make this work and you are an integral part of that. We will do everything we can to ensure your success with them including offering any technical support necessary.

Now the good part

Re-chrome Price = $250 per housing Canadian Dollars (special price as your recompense)
Data deposit = $100 per housing US Dollars (this will be paid to Pineapple Racing for ease of reimbursement, no exchange rates to worry about)
Shipping Return = $50 Canadian Dollars for 2 housings and $32 for 1 housing
Shipped in a factory housing box.

I've contacted USPS to get an extimate on your cost to ship to Canada and I was surprised that Canada Post was cheaper to return than USPS is to get them here. That's a first! Anyway the shipping cost by USPS Priority Mail International in a factory box is $73.00 USD for 2 housings.

I asked about the flat rate box and they tell me if you can fit it in the box and close it they will take it. Medium Flat Rate Box is 13-5/8" X 11-7/8" X 3-3/8" for $27.95 USD. The rotor housing is 13" X 12-5/8" X 3-1/8" approx so it would be close with the studs removed and placed seperately in the box. Otherwise the large is $35 USD. Can someone check if they can fit the housing in one?? I think if you bump the sides in a bit it might go in. The post office here say's they will ship back in the same box as long as we cover up the USPS markings.

So if we add it all up based on a pair of housings we get;

$500 CDN + $50 CDN = $550 CDN
plus
$200 USD + $73 USD = $273 USD

The $200 is kept in trust with Pineapple for reimbursement so that leaves the $73 USD you would have to pay to get them here.

Based on today's exchange rate $550 CDN is about $570 USD.

So if you look at it from there your cost is approx $570 + $73 = $643 USD per pair not counting the data deposit. I didn't count it here because you WILL give us the data and get the $200 back
The amount will vary a little on the $CDN conversion due to daily exchange variences. You will be given an amount the day of your payment for best accuracy. The cost will also come down by $18 USD if the med flat rate box can be used.

I hope you see this as not only an excellent value but an excellent opportunity to be a part of something this exciting and rewarding!

dj55b

iTrader: (2)

Do you not have any housings available at the current moment at your shop? Can you also describe how the process of the chroming happens? How is any flaked previous area filled in and leveled off again?

Chuck Norris FB

What level of damage to the housing surface is acceptable for re-chroming?

P.S Great work your doing

D Walker

iTrader: (1)

Hmmm-

Well ok a few things-

First, asking people to pay for YOUR long term R&D is pretty ballsy, but apparently becoming more normal.
$250 per housing, honestly, seems high. YES, I get that your price/profit point is ultimately to be half of a set of new housings, but debuting an untested/unproven product at such pricing might stall development. Just as an example, this is the way I, as a shop and rebuilder look at this-
First if I buy from you for X price, then I cannot mark it up to make profit, so no incentive to actually use them. I believe for $250 per housing I can have the damged chrome chemically stripped, a base chrome layer applied, and a Nikasil layer layed down. For a few dollars more I can have damage such as gouges, pits, etc filled and smoothed.
Lastly, putting BETA housings into the hands of the home assembler can be risky, as you have little to no control over thier assembly practices.

The way you might approach this, and get both better feedback and more housings out there to prove your concepts are to:

Give the shops, racers, and maybe a few backyard guys out there 1 free or heavily discounted set each to test. Put together a list of things you would like to know about each engines assembly- just a simple data sheet- then get the housings out there to be built. When AEM sends me an ECU to BETA, they dont charge me and they do not ask for it back. I give them the feedback they need, so it works. If you are concerned about not recieving feedback, simply choose your builders wisely. EVEN if only three out of five give you data thats helpful.
Next, I would SERIOUSLY try to get these housings in the hands of some of the racers out there, because they are the ones who are going to pound the crap out of the housings, tear the motors down often, and make lots of observations about whether or not they work. Thier opinions matter too. Road racers, drag racers, whatever. Just make some observatiosn and then try and get them in thier hands.

These are my personal opinions, but if I were trying to make or recondition housings (and I might be, you never know) I would be talking to Goodfellas, Karack, Pineapple, BDC, Defined, etc. and trying to convince them to try my product.

Also I will be honest here, I am working on Nikasil housings as an evolution of the current OEM chrome housing and nitrided irons. Nikasil, properly applied will outlast chrome and provide superior sealing and will be more durable than the nitriding on irons. It is cheaper than Cermet and it works. It is currently in use in the rotary engines powering UAV drones and has proven to last hundreds of hours of wide open throttle. Dave at Atkins has a set of nikasil housings they did years ago, but no one was interested at the time.
Now is the time for rechroming, resurfacing, nikasil, etc. to recondition and renew the parts we have, because we never know when Mazda will cease production then thats that, there will be no more.



Next,

Glassman

iTrader: (1)

Firstly I'm not asking anyone to pay for my long term R&D. The only reason I'm doing this is because people have been driving me nuts to get re-chromed housings.

You think $250 is high? $500 for a pair of housings compared to $1500 for S6. There is nothing to be made at all at these prices.

These are not untested or unproven, Pineapple built two engines that have been and are still running for over 3 years.

These are not being made for you or anyone else to resell, if that's what anyone wants to do with this then don't bother participating.

You are working on Nikasil housings....I guess that's why your on here posting discrediting what we are doing and promoting yourself.

Yes there are some companies making Nikasil housings for their applications but companies like Moller went away from Nikasil because it would not last against a hard apex seal like the factory or like they use. I just had this conversation with Paul a few days ago. He would consider Nikasil only with the use of ceramic seals.

Cubewano uses Nikasil but they run ceramic seals in their UAV engines. In fact once they ran the ceramic seals on a straight steel insert with no hardening at all, they came out looking like glass.

Next,

Glassman

iTrader: (1)

No we don't have any chromed housings available at the moment. At this point we are not repairing the damage to housings. That will be worked on later once this is moving along. Basically the housings we can do now will have no damage to the steel insert. They can be scratched, worn etc. but any damage to the steel insert however mild would translate into the chrome. If the housing is flaked but recently removed from service it might be salvageable, it depends if the steel where the chrome is missing is pitted or not.

BDC

If you need a guinea pig, I'd be game.

B

peejay

It's look like a very expensive proposition to be a guinea pig then... the money for the housings, plus for the new Mazda seals (must eliminate any variables), all so I can surrender the housings after a year. I'm no longer interested.

I'm not looking for free engine parts - I have plenty of housings in condition ranging from usable to excellent condition, that I can use how I see fit. (How I see fit = whatever seals I feel like using) What I am looking to do is offer my services as a "mile burner" and help your R&D effort. Apparently, I drive more miles in a year than many RX-7 owners accumulate in a decade. (I guess they don't like driving their cars or something ) Unfortunately, I cannot do this if I have to bear your operation's costs. $1500 is a very large chunk of change for me to throw into somebody else's business for no return. (For reference - this is roughly how much money I can expect to make for the first two months of the year)

I harbor no ill will, but I do not find the proposition to be attractive.

Glassman

iTrader: (1)

I do not recall saying anything about anyone surrendering the housings. They are your housings and will remain your housings after all is said and done.

D Walker

iTrader: (1)

I can understand that, BUT you are asking for long-term research because you are asking for $100 OR reviews/feedback on the product. To me that is the definition of asking for long-term development.

I am very well aware of what housings costs these days, and I support what you are doing. I understand your price point and why you are trying to get there, but as an introductory few sets, I would do it differently. Selling housings to end users is fine, but the model is not scalable until you convince shops who are rebuilding these engines daily that it is worthwhile to use them. Many rebuilders have been burned so many times by the "next great thing" you will literally have to pay them to try the first set, and even then they may not buy into it.

I have the utmost respect for Dan, but two engines built by a master is not proof of the pudding.

This is a business model you should reconsider. Less and less people are rebuilding thier own engines and shops are becoming more and more distrustful of "new" technology, especially when they sell it at a loss. This is the reason WHY rotary shops spring up and then die out. For whatever reason many rotary vendors choose to sell to shops for the same price as they sell to the end user, and no one wins this way. As a model of success look to Manley- they sell to rebuilders and speed shops at substantial discounts because they want thier parts to be used and sold. Long ago they discovered that:

There are way less issues with thier parts when installed by people who knew what they were doing
That selling to a shop so it can make a buck or two on the product ensured that that shop stayed in business and sold thier products for years and years. Selling to end users buying one or two EVER for the same price a vendor buying even 10 sets a year was far less profitable than giving the guy selling 10 a year a nice discount and keeping him using thier product. Builds loyalty, maintains reputation, a lot of what the rotary world lacks.

I am promoting nothing except the furthering of technology to keep parts for these engines available and cost-effective. Just as an example, Mahle pistons and cylinders for a Porsche average $3500 a set. yeah, OUCH! Years ago we figured out that wecould have used cylinders repaired, re-Nikasiled, honed, and then have pistons made to fit, for about $1500 a set. Result? More air-cooled cars out there running, and more owners happy with thier cars.
I am also not bashing on you or your technology- I think its awesome you are out there working on this. I just think you need to refine your business model so that you can be around a long long time.

I am aware that Cubewano uses your ceramic seals, and that they are lasting quite well. In fact, I am going to be trying your seals in an upcoming build, most likely with the Nikasil'ed housings.
I am also aware (as are you) that Nikasil was originally designed for rotary engines by Mahle, and allowed the rotors to run on the aluminum housing surface without the steel liner with very very good life (NSU Ro80, MB C111) however fuel at that time could contain a lot of sulfur and in some instances "softened" the nikasil coating. Mazda however used Nikasil'ed housings (and possibly irons) in some of thier test and race programs, and after 24hours of racing there was no measurable wear. I believe but cannot prove they were using steel apex seals at that time. Mazda did not use Nikasil in thier production engines due to cost concerns, mostly concernign the re-tooling required.
Nikasil technology has improved greatly, but that is to take nothing away from your rechroming process. My concern is that you are limiting your scope dramatically and that may cause sales to suffer. Every comment I made was about trying to help you succeed, not fail, sorry if you took it any other way.

Once again, I would contact known engine builders across the country and put your products in thier hands. These are the guys people look to for thier opinions, and you should feel certian that it will pay off.

Glassman

iTrader: (1)

I only suggested that because I thought it would give more reason to offer up the data.


I agree 100 % the shops are the best way to go with this. Problem for me is that I cannot afford to give away 20+ housings at this point. If I could I would trust me, I did it for the ceramic seals. Gave away 7 sets. I know you understand the kind of investment making a stock order of ceramic seals is, there simply is no spare capital to throw at this right now and I don't want to see this project disappear. This is the best I can offer right now. Maybe you can help hook me up with some of the shops you suggest??


Yes you are correct but it proves that this is more than just some untested concept. It proves that we need to move to the next step and get a lot more people running them. My goal was to wait until we were ready for mass production and then do as you said and invite builders to use them. But I've been getting a lot of requests for testing from some builders and home builders alike. There is a lot of talent on these forums who are not professional shops and if they can save some good $$$ on housings and have another option as well as provide some data well I guess that was what the idea was.


Many good points here. I am in full agreement and please understand this was only intended to be temporary. Shops will get discounts and will not pay what the end user pays.

Yes I see that now and I appreciate your imput.

wankeltrim

Sven..

What do you think of re-chrome MFR houings.

Rgds Jörgen