davemo

well ?

Bunchies

iTrader: (1)

because it requires lots of practice to get perfect and is unnecessary if you're just putting around in traffic?

Enthu

iTrader: (1)

It's only needed in race situations really, but I imagine can be easier on your tranny to rev match the downshifts. Just not alot of real use for it in traffic.

Alot of people plain old don't know about it either,so there's another reason.

jgrewe

iTrader: (1)

Because they have syncros to do the hard part for them at street speeds so they never learn.

dpf22

most people don't know better. Thus is why synchronizers were invented lol

dpf22

davemo

if you drive a 5 speed daily, simply trying to double clutch your downshifts will lead you to heel toe. even the double clutches make a huge difference to your driving, and the heel toe lets you have some fun no matter what car you drive.

davemo

once you learn to properly double clutch/ heel toe, you will dread the "conventional" downshift. it's the way a 5 speed is meant to be driven. experiencing a rev-matched downshift versus a conventional downshift proves it.

BLKTOPTRVL

because there is no need at all for the average driver to do this.

justint5387

iTrader: (1)

I always rev match, what is a conventional downshift? Just putting the car in a lower gear and slowly letting go of the clutch?

MazRx7FD

iTrader: (2)

^^^^ ditto, what the hell do I need the heel/toe if Im driving 10-20 mph in traffic to work and back? O.o

MazRx7FD

iTrader: (2)

^^^^ ditto, what the hell do I need the heel/toe if Im driving 10-20 mph in traffic to work and back? O.o

davemo

rev matching in neutral does not do the same thing as rev matching with the clutch in. a heel toe is useful for making a turn off a road in a town, even if you are going the speed limit! (going 35 in 4th, brake and downshift into second (heel toe it!) to make your right turn or whatever. now you are in 2nd gear going 18 or 20 or whatever with plenty of power to accelerate and havent done some clumsy maneuver (because i know you wanna just throw it in 3rd and pop the clutch because you or your girlfriend wont feel it anyway). and it's more practice for when you are threshold braking into some crazy corner and want to downshift to power out. it's definitely harder to perfectly rev match at the low speeds then the high ones.

there is no reasonable excuse not to double clutch every downshift, besides laziness (which is valid, but you gotta own up to it)

davemo

when you master it, which any one can, it is nicer to your transmission (no jerky shifts), your clutch (no slow clutch pulls ever, except for starting in 1st and reverse) and it you will be better able to react in scary situations as in near accidents. what happens if you need to slam on your brakes and then zoom away from some idiot about to side swipe you or something?

plus when you are really good you can always throw your car into 1st while moving (albeit slowly) without anyone noticing and then scare the daylights out of your passengers

davemo

from no acceleration squeezing on wide open @ 4grand in 1st gear feels pretty impressive no matter what car you're driving, especially you do it just after you braked into a parking lot or something (looks like you could've/should've heel toe'd it into first too)

davemo

it is also greatly advantageous over clutchless shifting to actually double clutch each shift

at least for street driving


p.s. i guess you guys all live in constant gridlock so why dont you just buy automatics

Bunchies

iTrader: (1)

I rev match every single downshift that I do, but you were asking about the average manual driver. What makes you think that people in the "Race Techniques" section are all going to be average manual drivers?

davemo

because rev matching is so easy

kendark2light

iTrader: (1)

average drivers don't know about "race Techniques" yeah its esay to do I can do it in a 95" GMC S-10 but your talkin AVERAGE DRIVERS not sport car drivers, I agree with Buncheis the guy above







88 se
89 glx
88 glx

KhanArtisT

iTrader: (2)

yup, most people I know jam it into whichever lower gear they want to be in, even when driving aggressively. Then they bitch about their tranny grinding when they downshift lol. I wonder if this is common among FC owners, but my pedals are close enough that I can use my big toe to push the brake and the other toes to push the gas, haha. I rev match and engine brake when the red light I'm approaching is about to turn green and when I'm passing someone. I drove my previous car for a year w/o knowing how to rev match until I met an RX7 owner that showed me how It makes it much easier to quickly downshift in high RPMs and get into your powerband, an important technique for an NA owner

GodsOwnThunder

I'm sure most people rev match. even if they don't know the name for it. what they don't do or need to do is Heel & Toe. There is no need for it in everyday driving.

Bill Howe

When I was racing a first gen with a four speed, I trail braked. I could go deeper into a corner then the heel toe guys and the rotary lends itself to that technique than piston engines. Current have five speed first gen and there is no difference.

davemo

trail braking is simply braking as you turn in, is it not ?

justint5387

iTrader: (1)

Schumacher, everything is too simple for you... Are you trying to brag your ability of being able to heel and toe? It is not as impressive as you might think. Heel-toe is a technique you use on race tracks, and occasionally if you race in mountains, but doing it in the street is not needed, regular rev-match downshift is more than adequate.

davemo

it's just a shame there isn't more information about double clutching and heel toe available because even my mom wants me to teach her how do it.
nothing about heel toe prevents you from trail braking as i understand it either.
we are talking about the average 5 speed driver here, too! the AVERAGE driver has an automatic! the 5 speed driver wants more control, and the only way to get it is to learn how to properly operate a car with a manual transmission. why wouldn't you want to learn heel toe?

please explain to me the exact procedure in what you would call a regular rev match downshift.

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

i do my own modified version of heel-n-toe when i drive ... and my insurance company claims that i'm an average driver. so there.