why doesn't the average 5 speed driver heel and toe
10-17-07, 11:02 AM
#52
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if anything it should be easier to do it with bigger feet. "heel-toe" is not literally using your heel and toe, though it can be. if you have trouble because of bigger feet, try using the ball of your foot under your big toe to brake and the outside edge of your foot to blip the throttle. that's how i do it, literally using the heel and toe is definitely rougher on your ankle. and get used to ALWAYS hitting the brake in this style, in case you ever want/need to heel toe but wasn't anticipating it before braking
10-17-07, 12:01 PM
#53
I generally don't heel-toe on the street for a few reasons:
1) I'm trying to avoid wasting gas
2) No need to complicate things that should be simple. Safety on the street is about keeping your focus on what's outside of the car, not inside.
3) engine is at lower revs, less inertia, less benefit to a perfect rev match; or said another way, if I don't smash the shifter the synchros can do the job themselves just fine
4) I'm not wearing driving shoes, the pedals could be wet, the floormat could slip, the pedals aren't shaped as well on my daily driver... all little reasons that make heel-toe easier and safer on the track than on the street.
All that said I still do it from time to time to tickle my pickle, but get real, it is NOT required for 'proper' street driving.
Dave
1) I'm trying to avoid wasting gas
2) No need to complicate things that should be simple. Safety on the street is about keeping your focus on what's outside of the car, not inside.
3) engine is at lower revs, less inertia, less benefit to a perfect rev match; or said another way, if I don't smash the shifter the synchros can do the job themselves just fine
4) I'm not wearing driving shoes, the pedals could be wet, the floormat could slip, the pedals aren't shaped as well on my daily driver... all little reasons that make heel-toe easier and safer on the track than on the street.
All that said I still do it from time to time to tickle my pickle, but get real, it is NOT required for 'proper' street driving.
Dave
10-17-07, 02:32 PM
#54
i have a lot.
pointless
im way too tall
my dd is automatic
my last 2 dd, 91 civic and 90 rx7 had no room, i could if i sat kind of sideways and scooted my seat all the way back. and the civic was dumping exhaust from the header and it was annoying enough as it was.
initil d made every kid think heel and toe is the coolest thing ever and do it all the time. the question do you know how to heel and toe replaced, hey is that turbo??
why i can in the 93, its the fun car, 320mm wheel and quick release so its closer so plenty of leg room to work with.
pointless
im way too tall
my dd is automatic
my last 2 dd, 91 civic and 90 rx7 had no room, i could if i sat kind of sideways and scooted my seat all the way back. and the civic was dumping exhaust from the header and it was annoying enough as it was.
initil d made every kid think heel and toe is the coolest thing ever and do it all the time. the question do you know how to heel and toe replaced, hey is that turbo??
why i can in the 93, its the fun car, 320mm wheel and quick release so its closer so plenty of leg room to work with.
10-25-07, 10:52 PM
#55
For me, it's now become a force of habit. While I agree, it wastes gas, if it becomes habitual, there's little reason to stop yourself from doing it. I'm assuming that you can do it well before it becomes a habit. If you suck at it and it's a habit, stop before you ruin your clutch/transmission!
How fast were you going to be in 2nd at an intersection? Were you slowing down to an intersection or did you just pull from a light? I'm picturing the street like this: divided street with two lanes on each side, plus a parking lane. Cars to your left, you in the right lane, and the Fuso truck in the parking lane pulling out. If that's the case, why did you heel toe into 1st instead of rev-match downshift into first and accelerate out?
And for the person who said heel toe is like double declutching rev match downshift.......when are you double clutching???? Unless of course, you're doing a double clutch heel toe downshift, but that's a different story and all but unnecessary with our transmissions.
And for the person who said heel toe is like double declutching rev match downshift.......when are you double clutching???? Unless of course, you're doing a double clutch heel toe downshift, but that's a different story and all but unnecessary with our transmissions.
Last edited by Roen; 10-25-07 at 11:03 PM.
10-26-07, 05:03 AM
#56
Yes, I think the double clutching reference related to a double-clutch downshift using heel-toe for the rev-matching blip. While it's primarily for truck and race car trannys, even on synchromesh trannys it can help a little bit. But like you said, it's never necessary for our cars.
Dave
Dave
10-26-07, 06:51 AM
#57
I do it because I can! And because my friend's always ask me, why are you doing 12 things to downshift one gear???
I know....I'm a tool. =P
I do the double clutch heel toe for fun on the street, but i never waste my time with it at the track. I do frequently double clutch my upshifts to save the tranny from wear and tear. Though, these days, with the addition of my puck clutch, I've all but stopped double clutching.
I know....I'm a tool. =P
I do the double clutch heel toe for fun on the street, but i never waste my time with it at the track. I do frequently double clutch my upshifts to save the tranny from wear and tear. Though, these days, with the addition of my puck clutch, I've all but stopped double clutching.
10-26-07, 01:08 PM
#59
Because I'm a MaD tyTE JDM dorifutoer, d00d!
Now, if you really want to be l33t at changing gears, you could try this:
On the throttle as your approaching the corner, right before you're about to let off, gently pull the gear shift out of gear and into neutral, without using the clutch. This should all be done as you're transitioning from throttle to brake. Once you brake down to the right speed, blip the throttle with your heel/right side of your foot, depending on how you blip the throttle. You should raise your rpm's to the point where, as you put the car back in gear, the engine's rpm should be exactly corresponding to the transmission's rpm for a given gear. Any deviation will be rewarded with a jerk, lurch, grind, blown transmission, etc. After that, get back on the throttle.
Clutchless heel-toe, ladies and gentleman, only done when you're really really really bored.
Nuances:
1. Normally, when you pull the gear out without using the clutch, the transmission doesn't want to let it go. Instead, you have to coax the engine to the proper load point, so that the gear slips out with minimal effort. Much easier done on a street clutch than a puck clutch.
2. Blip the throttle and putting the gear back in without using the clutch, is really tricky.
3. You will blow something if you do this wrong. Don't say you haven't been warned.
BTW, an average 5 speed driver, can't even shift without the clutch!
There's all sorts of variations of shifting, normal (clutch), clutchless (floating the gears), double-clutch, semi-double clutch, etc. None of these, however, by themselves, will make you a good driver. Though, you can always brag to friends, "Clutch? Pfft.....who needs a clutch? Real men drive with rev-matching!"
Now, if you really want to be l33t at changing gears, you could try this:
On the throttle as your approaching the corner, right before you're about to let off, gently pull the gear shift out of gear and into neutral, without using the clutch. This should all be done as you're transitioning from throttle to brake. Once you brake down to the right speed, blip the throttle with your heel/right side of your foot, depending on how you blip the throttle. You should raise your rpm's to the point where, as you put the car back in gear, the engine's rpm should be exactly corresponding to the transmission's rpm for a given gear. Any deviation will be rewarded with a jerk, lurch, grind, blown transmission, etc. After that, get back on the throttle.
Clutchless heel-toe, ladies and gentleman, only done when you're really really really bored.
Nuances:
1. Normally, when you pull the gear out without using the clutch, the transmission doesn't want to let it go. Instead, you have to coax the engine to the proper load point, so that the gear slips out with minimal effort. Much easier done on a street clutch than a puck clutch.
2. Blip the throttle and putting the gear back in without using the clutch, is really tricky.
3. You will blow something if you do this wrong. Don't say you haven't been warned.
BTW, an average 5 speed driver, can't even shift without the clutch!
There's all sorts of variations of shifting, normal (clutch), clutchless (floating the gears), double-clutch, semi-double clutch, etc. None of these, however, by themselves, will make you a good driver. Though, you can always brag to friends, "Clutch? Pfft.....who needs a clutch? Real men drive with rev-matching!"
Last edited by Roen; 10-26-07 at 01:16 PM.
11-02-07, 02:17 PM
#60
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clutchless shifting is particular to certain transmission. for instance, my 1st car, a subaru legacy, had a transmission that could be shifted into 1st gear easily without the clutch. the rx7 transmission is much harder to get out of gear without the clutch, and there really is no reason to shift clutchlessly in my opinion. first of all, it is far less forgiving to shift clutchlessly. if you make a mistake, needless to say your clutch it not there to take the brunt of it, and (duh) the clutch is meant to be replaced regularly anyway. second, you can't shift clutchlessly without perfectly rev matching or, needless to say, using an unwise amount of force to engage the gear. if you do use the clutch, you not only save your gears some grief from an inevitable occasional mistake. plus you can shift faster with the clutch as the rev match need not be perfect for the gear to engage, and you can pop the clutch whenever you feel like it. this is great for being in neutral, blipping the throttle, feeling the revs BEGIN to match and by the time you are in gear and pop the clutch, the revs will be better matched.
11-02-07, 02:26 PM
#61
clutchless shifting YAY! a new way to kill a tranny for very little gain!!!
I knew a guy that destroyed his tranny doing clutchless shifts at the 1/4 mile. Waste of money and you don't get that much of a time improvement.
I knew a guy that destroyed his tranny doing clutchless shifts at the 1/4 mile. Waste of money and you don't get that much of a time improvement.
11-02-07, 03:01 PM
#62
Apparently, I've heard that with some cars, you can powershift without the clutch really fast from one gear to another. While I don't think that's mechanically possible, I wonder if others have heard the same thing.
Though, one time, my friend had forgotten to check his clutch master before he left for a 3 hour trip. I drove on the way back and I kept complaining that the clutch felt funny, like there was too much play, but he said it was my imagination. After awhile, there was just way too much pedal play and I had to drive without the clutch the rest of the way back. After we got home, I popped the hood and showed him that he was almost out of fluid in the master cylinder.
Though, one time, my friend had forgotten to check his clutch master before he left for a 3 hour trip. I drove on the way back and I kept complaining that the clutch felt funny, like there was too much play, but he said it was my imagination. After awhile, there was just way too much pedal play and I had to drive without the clutch the rest of the way back. After we got home, I popped the hood and showed him that he was almost out of fluid in the master cylinder.
11-02-07, 03:50 PM
#63
it IS possible if you do it right but it gains nothing and all you need it to do it wrong ONCE to destroy the tranny.
put a little pressure on the shifter (like you're taking it out of gear) when you let off the gas to test it out. It should slip right out. you then have to match the engine and tranny speeds to shove it back in. It's not easy nor does it help you much. If you're trying to save time like this then you're a pro drag racer that has a fully built drag car. If that's the case then get a racing transmission.
put a little pressure on the shifter (like you're taking it out of gear) when you let off the gas to test it out. It should slip right out. you then have to match the engine and tranny speeds to shove it back in. It's not easy nor does it help you much. If you're trying to save time like this then you're a pro drag racer that has a fully built drag car. If that's the case then get a racing transmission.
11-02-07, 05:31 PM
#64
nono, I meant, they're (or they claim to be) flat shifting without the clutch near redline.
If you read my last post, you'll notice that I had to drive all the way back without the clutch, I should have said, I was shifting without the clutch all the way back.
If you read my last post, you'll notice that I had to drive all the way back without the clutch, I should have said, I was shifting without the clutch all the way back.
11-02-07, 07:59 PM
#66
well, i was lucky enough to have just enough fluid left in the cylinder to engage first anytime i had to stop at a light. I just revved it to 4k when in gear which loaded up the engine/tranny enough to be able to slip the shifter out of gear, i then rev-matched and slotted the shifter to the next gear. Downshifting was a little trickier, since when you have to downshift, usually you're under some pressure. But it was the same, take the shifter out of gear, rev the engine in neutral and re-engage the next gear.
11-02-07, 09:01 PM
#67
I heel-toe sometimes just because I get bored. Rev-matching just becomes second nature after awhile, doesn't really take away any concentration, just like shifting. Sure, it might waste gas, but if I cared, I wouldn't be daily driving an RX-7. I also usually drive in skate shoes which are pretty wide so it's easy.
I used to have a 3rd gen Supra as a daily driver and any kind of heel-toe in that car was impossible. Every pedal required about 3 inches or more of travel to see any definitive result, so there was no "blipping the gas." It drove almost like a small truck. Anyone else have cars that it just doesn't work with?
I used to have a 3rd gen Supra as a daily driver and any kind of heel-toe in that car was impossible. Every pedal required about 3 inches or more of travel to see any definitive result, so there was no "blipping the gas." It drove almost like a small truck. Anyone else have cars that it just doesn't work with?
11-02-07, 09:02 PM
#68
lucky bastard. Mine was drained. I Pulled over when it wouldn't going into gear put it in neutral and then just grind everytime i tried to put it in gear. Had to turn it off to put it in first and start the car in gear (imagine disabling the clutch switch and starting your car in gear) it bucked like a bitch but i got it running but shifting into second was harsh. I had to slam it into gear which honestly made me sad. Took it home found it was the fluid, bled the system and the 2nd gear syncro was damaged.
I still don't know how "power shifting" is the best approach towards a better time towards the 1/4, or at the track.
I still don't know how "power shifting" is the best approach towards a better time towards the 1/4, or at the track.
11-02-07, 10:30 PM
#69
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I do when I'm driving agressively, but when I'm just driving around normally then it's not needed, and I find it a lot harder to do smoothly when I'm not braking hard, so I don't bother. I'll usually coast to the intersection with the clutch in downshifting as I go. If it's on the highway and I'm gearing down for a corner I usually just do it before braking, but then I don't usually slow down much or at all for many corners either.
11-05-07, 11:46 PM
#70
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ironically, when learning heel tor you must learn the hardest shifts first. these are the rev matches in the low speed range. the difference between gears is less RPMs and the rev match is far more difficult to feel in the shifter when it's perfect. if you are rev matching at 6 grand there it is like a giant flashing sign when you have rev matched. the shifter practically gets sucked into the right gear. doing it from like 2500-3500rpm takes the real skill to, feeling the subtleties of your transmission. the ironic part is that you'd be a madman to be trying to learn heel toe or double clutching at the limit or during threshold braking and must start slowly, where feeling the rev match is actually harder. do people agree?
11-05-07, 11:48 PM
#71
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i used to wonder why automakers placed the gas pedal below the brake. i thought it made much more sense to put the gas above, so that one could simply slide their foot onto the brake in case of emergency, instead of having to raise it and move it over. now i think they make the gas pedal lower so you can heel toe. hahaha
11-12-07, 10:46 AM
#74
Because "kids" who "race" on the street more often than not, are "average" manual drivers with fart cans welded to their cars. They just know stomp the gas, dump clutch, and JDM tyte mad-dorifto teknique.
I practiced my heel-toe yesterday for the 1st time in a long time on 67 coming in/out of Ramona. Illinois didn't really have a need to. Stop sign, braaaap, stop sign, braaaaap, stop light, braaaaaap, brake for idiot not in turning lane, etc.
I practiced my heel-toe yesterday for the 1st time in a long time on 67 coming in/out of Ramona. Illinois didn't really have a need to. Stop sign, braaaap, stop sign, braaaaap, stop light, braaaaaap, brake for idiot not in turning lane, etc.
11-12-07, 02:00 PM
#75
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remembering jerry springer, my final thought is that everybody who drives a manual should learn AT LEAST to rev match and if you can do that you are on the brink of heel toe and should learn that too. and by should i mean pursue the knowledge aggressively.