Race Car Tech Discuss anything related to road racing and auto X.

sequential dog box, or 6speed H pattern?

Old 11-16-06, 03:05 AM
  #1  
Ooooooh, custom.
5 Year Member
Thread Starter
 
Rotary Noob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Corona, CA
Posts: 618
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
sequential dog box, or 6speed H pattern?

Eventually, i would like to have a purpose built race car, and I was wondering what people thought.

Im just curious what people think of a dogbox style 6 speed sequential. I already know what a 6 speed is like, but I would also like reasons why one over the other, since i have no experience with true sequentials.

Thanks,

Jasen
Rotary Noob is offline  
Old 11-16-06, 08:35 AM
  #2  
Lives on the Forum
15 Year Member
 
DamonB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Dallas
Posts: 9,617
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Given the choice I don't know of anyone who'd want an H-pattern over a true sequential shifter.

If you've ridden a motorcycle you've used a sequential shifter.
DamonB is offline  
Old 11-16-06, 01:01 PM
  #3  
Senior Member
5 Year Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: mooresville
Posts: 454
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
it depend on what your goals are....if your trying to compete and your class allows for a sequential you better have it, they are faster and allow less room for mistakes, at the same time if don't have your footwork right you can still spit a dog ring out in no time.
personally if its just for a track lapping car I like the feel of a dogged H-patern it forces you to work a little more plus depending on what mfg. they tend to be a little less finicky and a whole lot cheaper.
sereneseven is offline  
Old 11-16-06, 04:54 PM
  #4  
Junior Member
5 Year Member
 
fd20b's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: SD, California
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
boxes

A good H pattern will run you 7k, a good sequential that will handle hi horsepower will run you 20k plus......
fd20b is offline  
Old 11-16-06, 05:59 PM
  #5  
Panda Bear
10 Year Member
iTrader: (4)
 
Turbo23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Lititz, PA
Posts: 1,724
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
20k what drugs are you on?
Turbo23 is offline  
Old 11-16-06, 06:58 PM
  #6  
Ooooooh, custom.
5 Year Member
Thread Starter
 
Rotary Noob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Corona, CA
Posts: 618
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Ive found a true sequential dog box, with a rachet style shifter, for about 6k that can handle 650 ftlbs of torque. An M12 transmission for a Vette, is only 4k...

I would want to use it from SCCA on up to something like the American LeMans Series...note, this is an eventual process.

Footwork for a dogbox? You only use clutch to start moving dont you? What footwork would really be needed, aside from gas and brake?

thanks for the thoughts so far, more?
Rotary Noob is offline  
Old 11-16-06, 11:26 PM
  #7  
Senior Member
5 Year Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: mooresville
Posts: 454
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
^ yes most don't use the clutch on a dog box but footwork as in gas pedal vs shifting is still critical when it comes to down shifting you still need to be able to time your blips to your hand. in fact i know of many top level pro drivers who still use the clutch on down shifts to help soften the engagements.

LOL ok if you want to go alms with a rotary pm me and i can put you in contact with an x-trac guy who can help you out but it will be much more than 6k oh and if you really want to go alms i can offer my services for around 75K a year.
sereneseven is offline  
Old 11-16-06, 11:56 PM
  #8  
Ooooooh, custom.
5 Year Member
Thread Starter
 
Rotary Noob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Corona, CA
Posts: 618
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
well, if i do anything on a track, it will be at least 2 years before i start getting into everything, and i would expect around 5-10 before i even started trying to get into ALMS. But i would like to, is the point. I hardly have enough to pay for my car and rent, how in the hell would i pay you 75k a year? lol. Thanks for the clarification on the footwork though, that was confuzzling.

There is actually a ECU like computer that ferrarri i believe, developed for their new sequential 7 speed. It automatically blips the gas for you, and matches the rpms. I dont know everything about that, so i would have to read more into it, but I did read it, in motor trend i believe.
Rotary Noob is offline  
Old 11-17-06, 12:53 AM
  #9  
Senior Member
5 Year Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: mooresville
Posts: 454
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
^yes this is true there are ecu's with built in algorithums (LOL spl?) for clutchless down shifting as in almost any paddle shift application the technology has been around for quite a while. however most sanctioning body's untill recently have not allowed it. in your case i highly reccomend you look into a driving school to get your feet wet, something like russell racing driving school would be good.

LOL since you flinched at my asking price this tells me your not independently wealthy so you better hope you have some god given ability and some very good PR skillz if you really want to make it to ALMS.
sereneseven is offline  
Old 11-17-06, 01:04 AM
  #10  
Ooooooh, custom.
5 Year Member
Thread Starter
 
Rotary Noob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Corona, CA
Posts: 618
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I can drive decently well (for not having been to a racing school, for being 18, for not having any track time) I will not lie and say that I am god on a race track, I know that its not true. But i would like to think that I am a better than average driver.

No, not independantly wealthy, poor college kid is alot closer to the truth. I would like to go out and run on AutoX and go to a driving school, but I dont have the money for it. I however have very good communications skills. I could make up a bogus or lame story trying to prove that, but I hope that you will just take my word for it. But then realize, that by the time i want to get started on the ALMS im going to be 30, and have much more in the way of experience.
Rotary Noob is offline  
Old 11-17-06, 01:15 AM
  #11  
Senior Member
5 Year Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: mooresville
Posts: 454
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
LOL hahahahaha ok. well the best advice I can give you is that if you want to start your racing career at 30 make as much money from now untill then so you can fund your own ALMS team by the way this will require you to have at least 10 million in the bank and bussines that will support itself and allow for self sponsership. now if you want to make your money by racing go get a kart and see how good of a driver you are against the local hero's......how do you judge your driving skillz if you have never competed???????'
sereneseven is offline  
Old 11-17-06, 01:22 AM
  #12  
Ooooooh, custom.
5 Year Member
Thread Starter
 
Rotary Noob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Corona, CA
Posts: 618
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I judge my racing skills against people that I have raced on indoor gokart tracks, slick tracks, people at street races, average idiots on the freeways, and the fact that through all that ive done, ive never crashed.

I plan on having sponsors, financial backing, and all that. I plan on getting into SCCA club racing and the like as soon as possible (2-3 years when i have my 7 finished and im out of school) I dont plan on jumping straight into the ALMS, i know that it would be very close to impossible, i wouldnt have the experience required. I plan on starting my racing career at 20-21.

Indoor, and outdoor karting is still racing, though not really comparable (class wise) to the ALMS.
Rotary Noob is offline  
Old 11-17-06, 01:25 AM
  #13  
Senior Member
5 Year Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: mooresville
Posts: 454
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
absolutley!!!! karting is a great start what do run?
sereneseven is offline  
Old 11-17-06, 01:41 AM
  #14  
Ooooooh, custom.
5 Year Member
Thread Starter
 
Rotary Noob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Corona, CA
Posts: 618
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I dont, on a regular basis, if i had more money and a kart i would though...Ive gone to public indoor karting track and run on slick tracks before.
Rotary Noob is offline  
Old 11-17-06, 03:14 AM
  #15  
What rev limiter!?
5 Year Member
 
Weed Wacker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Streamwood
Posts: 129
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Dude, forget autocross, put that mazda together to run ITS. Trust me, as a fellow poor *** that hasn't hit 20 yet, it will take long enough to build a car for that. You will gain a shitload of experience in this class (IT is the biggest regional only class which usually has 40+ cars per race in it)and a second gen is a very competitive car there.

Here's a little perspective. I run ITA with a first gen, just for a weekend (double regional) it costs me on average $500. That doesn't include tires, a hotel if needed, maintenence, tow vehicle (a corvette is NOT a valid tow vehicle), trailer, etc.

We are building another couple racecars over this winter and so far the cheapest one is going to be 5k or so. That's just the car, that isn't including driver gear.You can build a racecar for much cheaper than that but you will not be competetive. All you really need is the required safety equipment for the car and an exhaust and your technically an IT car, but a slow one.

You won't get noticed or get sponsors, but hey, you'll have a lot of fun. Besides, your only 18 right? So you still have that 12 years to move up classes, get noticed and get your ride with an ALMS team

P.S. forget about the trans, you can put your car together for the most part with the money you would waste on that
Weed Wacker is offline  
Old 11-17-06, 03:27 AM
  #16  
Ooooooh, custom.
5 Year Member
Thread Starter
 
Rotary Noob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Corona, CA
Posts: 618
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The trans will be a while, but what im hoping for in a final build situation, is a 10 point cage, with door bars, 800hp, and a 9k redline.

For the next two years my plan is to get about 350-400 hp out of it, get the cage done, and most of the exterior body work. After I get the undertray, headlights, rear spoiler (not ricer wing...) and front and rear strut bars, i will worry about getting a tow vehicle. If my dad gets a new truck anytime in the near future, ill take his old truck. (2001 Sierra C3)

Thanks for the info, its much appreciated. any IT races coming up soon that you know of, or a place i can check it?
Rotary Noob is offline  
Old 11-17-06, 07:36 AM
  #17  
Senior Member
10 Year Member
 
EProdRx7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Rochester NY
Posts: 576
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Forget the rx. Sorry to say it but no one gives a **** about another clapped out rx smoking up the padduct. It kills me because I'm a rotory racer and have $75k in reciepts to prove it. Get yourself to the track, find the most competitive class, SM or SRF, volunteer with the best team and hope that it leads to you getting some time in the car. In the interum hang on every word the team boss says and supress every thougt about sequential boxes and rotary crap. Oh yeah go make a ton of money at the same time, you're going to need it! Sorry for the reality check
EProdRx7 is offline  
Old 11-17-06, 09:32 AM
  #18  
Lives on the Forum
10 Year Member
 
Black91n/a's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: BC, Canada
Posts: 5,707
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Being a pretty good driver isn't enough, you have to be one of the very best on the continent to get noticed by sponsors. Judging skill against other people at indoor kart tracks, on the street, etc isn't a good measure, because they're not racers. Start with track days with a reasonably stock car, do some autocrossing, and then get into road racing once you've devellopped a base set of skills to work on. Don't go modding the car to the ****, you'll end up spending way too much to get on track, go into a spec class and beat everyone, that helps get you noticed, because it's not that your car's faster, it's because YOU are faster, and that's what counts.

Don't quit your day job, there are VERY FEW paying road racing jobs in North America (you're more likely to make a living in, say, professional golf).
Black91n/a is offline  
Old 11-17-06, 09:52 AM
  #19  
Senior Member
5 Year Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: mooresville
Posts: 454
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
If you you really want to make a career out of driving heres your best shot.

1. sell everything you own
2. forget all of your previous "racing experience"
3. go to a racing shool
4. get a job at a racing school (russell /skip barber)
5. hope you meet some rich guy who wants to go racing at the school, offer to drive.

or you can do steps 1-3 and then get a kart, kt100 or TAG are good classes to show your stuff and you never know who will show at a kart race.
sereneseven is offline  
Old 11-17-06, 09:56 AM
  #20  
Lives on the Forum
10 Year Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: n
Posts: 26,664
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes on 4 Posts
You're trying to make headlight kit molds out of cereal boxes and duct tape...
Then ask us how to set-up the reverse mold...

Now you're asking us about transmissions that cost more than your car and driving in ALMS???

I need to ask again...
ARE YOU FOR REAL???


-Ted
RETed is offline  
Old 11-17-06, 07:12 PM
  #21  
Ooooooh, custom.
5 Year Member
Thread Starter
 
Rotary Noob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Corona, CA
Posts: 618
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Honestly, RETed, what is your deal? You have only talked down on me since i joined this forum.

Okay, so you know what you're talking about (or so people say). I really dont care, because your attitude sucks, (or has towards me). You could be the best person in the world when you talk about rotary, but if your attitude sucks, I could care less, I dont need help that bad, nor would i want it.

Yea, i tried a cereal box, it failed, i made a new design. And your point is? How do you think they made the first car? Did it randomly spout of of someones ***? I think not. Trial and error. So you bashing me for trying something, failing, and trying again is completely pointless. Not to mention, quite childish.

I didnt ask for you to help me make a reverse mold, I asked what would help it release, and not destroy what i had made. Would you want to redo something every single time you had to make it? Of course not.

And now, because I've been reading, and been thinking ahead, into the future about things that I may or may not do with/to my car, you have to ask if im for real?

Now, I have a question for you, are you RET-arded?

Oh yes, i made a pun out of your name...no i dont think im a bad *** for it. Dude, seriously, I dont give two ***** if you think im real or not, im allowed to dream, and think of possible things to do to my car. If you dont like it, or dont like what im posting, or think im full of ****, say that you think im full of ****, I really dont care. But at least be honest, and dont sound like a condescending *****, and maybe i would be more receptive to it.

Just because I would like to eventually drive in the ALMS doesnt mean that it is impossible, or even that it would happen. It probably wont, I realize that, but it would be fun.

And all you people saying well sell everything you own go to a racing school hope you meet a rich guy...STFU dude. You sound like a retard for saying things like that. Im not a moron, I realize that it takes many things to race, and live (at the same time) in this world. Some of which are: stable financial situation, transportation, food to eat, place to sleep, gas, tires, parts...the list goes on. I REALIZE THAT.

To those of you who DIDNT treat me like i was 5, thank you for that. (reference, Black91n/a) Just because im 18 does not mean that im a dumbass.

I realize that indoor karting isnt really an actual race, but a couple people have shown up there while i was there...Tony Stewart, Jeremy McGrath, to name a few. But, again, not real racing. I understand that. But its the behind the wheel, judgement, and similar things, that you can gain from it. I realize that sponsors only want a car that wins, because it helps them with their name, but i guess it doesnt hurt to hear it again.

Again, I UNDERSTAND that it takes time, money, commitment, and the like, to race and survive, and i dont have any of that. But over the next few years after I graduate from my auto tech school, maybe I will be the best and be flying through the ranks, or have abandoned all ambitions of racing, but I can dream, right? Dont flame me, the person, just answer my damn question.

It would be much more appreciated.
Rotary Noob is offline  
Old 11-17-06, 07:13 PM
  #22  
Senior Member
10 Year Member
 
andrewb70's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: WI
Posts: 343
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by RETed
You're trying to make headlight kit molds out of cereal boxes and duct tape...
Then ask us how to set-up the reverse mold...

Now you're asking us about transmissions that cost more than your car and driving in ALMS???

I need to ask again...
ARE YOU FOR REAL???


-Ted
LOL....Nice...

Andrew
andrewb70 is offline  
Old 11-17-06, 07:24 PM
  #23  
Death to Infinite Scroll
 
peejay's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Cleveland, Ohio, USA
Posts: 11,702
Received 43 Likes on 40 Posts
A dog-box sequential, as opposed to all of those synchromesh sequential trannies?

That's about the point when I realized it's either a troll or a dreamer.

The answer of course is you use what the rules require.
peejay is offline  
Old 11-17-06, 07:53 PM
  #24  
Ooooooh, custom.
5 Year Member
Thread Starter
 
Rotary Noob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Corona, CA
Posts: 618
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Thank you for the straight answer. Wasnt quite what i was looking for, but it is much appreciated.
Rotary Noob is offline  
Old 11-17-06, 07:57 PM
  #25  
Lives on the Forum
10 Year Member
 
Black91n/a's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: BC, Canada
Posts: 5,707
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
One more thing, don't plan too far ahead, technology is constantly changing, so there's likely to be a better solution come around in a few years for just about any system for a race car. Who knows, maybe in 5 years there'll be a super trick 7 speed fully automatic sequential box available for $2k or something. You never know.

Try to do a lot of reading of racecar books, like the ones by Caroll Smith. Also, there's some good magazines out there that deal with motorsports and the technical aspects of it that'll help keep you informed. Grassroots Motorsports is good for stuff that the average guy can afford. Racecar Engineering and Race Tech are good for more expensive, pro level, state of the art stuff.

In this months GRM there's an article about how to become a pro level road racer in the US.

We've all had these dreams, don't get mad when people tell you the truth that it's not likely to happen.

Take my advice on the driver education, do it in steps, gradually building speed and skill. Don't try to have your first track laps in a wheel to wheel race in a 700hp monster, that's a recipe for disaster. You'll find that most racers would much rather have more track time in a slower car than spending that time and money making the car faster and getting less time. If you can, run in 2 classes, that way you'll get twice as much track time per weekend for little extra cost.

Buying a fully built race car will cost you about half as much as building it yourself.
Black91n/a is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Quick Reply: sequential dog box, or 6speed H pattern?


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

© 2019 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
 
  • Ask a Question
    Get answers from community experts
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: