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Prod shock options?

Old 07-03-06, 08:58 AM
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Prod shock options?

Okay, I know about the Susko option, but then again there was the problem before with the Advance shocks, and the new Konis... well, they're largish inserts, but they're still inserts; internal resevoir and all the rest. I know Dernehl and probably some others are running Motons with external resevoirs... how much do *those* cost? And are there any other real options?
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Old 07-03-06, 03:43 PM
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Motons are just over $5,000 for three ways and just over $11,000 for the four ways.
It really depends on what you ar trying to do, have fun or win nationals? There are a ton of other things to spend money on before you spend $5K on shocks. That level of shock is purchased when you are looking for that last few tenths of a second a lap. You will get more out of new tires than $5K shocks, at least for the first half of a race. If you aren't far from street spring rates get some regular Konis or Tokicos. There isn't much offered between the $150 a piece range and the $1000 each price point.
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Old 07-03-06, 09:48 PM
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There are also Jrz, ISC services them, not sure if they sell them...


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Old 07-05-06, 03:56 PM
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I've got a spare pair of Dynamic front two ways with Remotes.
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Old 07-05-06, 07:00 PM
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jgrewe: Not bad advice really... but suffice to say that we are quite a ways from stock spring rates. Vaguely trying to figure out how much more it'd take to get to a national level car (or at least getting the parts there... don't have a national level driver to sort it )

JRZ... hrm... it does say in the GCR you can substitute struts...

Here I was hoping there was something between the Tokicos and the Motons...
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Old 07-05-06, 08:16 PM
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Kenku, do you guys have an ITA car & do you turn laps at Blackhawk Farm ? What times do you turn at the Farm ? What have you completed the remainder of your suspension ? Don't think big buck shocks/inserts are going to do the job all by themselves.
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Old 07-05-06, 08:42 PM
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Yeah, we run at Blackhawk with Midwestern Council, so it's not like I'm claiming to be any hot **** (hell, I'm not even the driver except on autocross days) The old chassis started out as an ITA car, but was in the process of migrating to Prod when there was a Miata encounter. New shell's getting done rather more thoroughly with regards to the cage and lightening. The Susko bits are carried over, plus we converted to the -SE bolt pattern with FC spindles and rotors... boxed in control arms with spherical ends, revised swaybar links (not Susko's method, but similar) tweaked steering arms... *shrug* Don't remember what we're running for spring rates exactly... 600/225 off the top of my head, but that's probably going to change with the move to slicks anyway.

That leaves the Illuminas... if there's much else to do to the suspension that's allowed by the book, I'm not seeing it.
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Old 07-05-06, 09:10 PM
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Kenku, times from the Farm ? (E cars are turning IIRC 17's/ Simaris 1st gen 19's)

Front/rear sway bar is open.

Struts/inserts/shocks/springs are open.

Strut spacers are open to lower the front & cure the Ackerman.

Spherical bearings for front lower control arm.

Replace lower control arm latteral location link bushings.

Castor/camber adjusters are open.

Strut support.

Third link rearend/Spherical bearings in lower links.

Panhard bar located to chassis (Right or Left) to suit tracks run to replace Watts linkage.
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Old 07-05-06, 09:12 PM
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If you can get a shock dyno print out from Tokico you can tell if they will get close to critical damping with some math. If you can't get a print out from them send them to me and I'll throw them on my shock dyno for a few bucks each. I don't know if they adjust rebound only or if compression is affected a bit but rebound is what matters more when it comes to spring rates. Since you are still pretty close to stock unsprung weights compression values should be fine on the Illuminas.

Last edited by jgrewe; 07-05-06 at 09:14 PM.
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Old 07-05-06, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by David Dewhurst
Kenku, times from the Farm ? (E cars are turning IIRC 17's/ Simaris 1st gen 19's)
I think the fastest was in the 1:25 range, still with the ITA wheel/tire package. Lateral link location I did forget about. We actually have Simaris's 12A and some other stuff... their shop's pretty close to here.
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Old 07-05-06, 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Kenku
with FC spindles and rotors...
Not legal for 1st gen. Refer to PCS-39. Spindles are fine but FC rotor is listed as 10.9" the largest 1st gen rotor is 9.8".

I went with the Susko Koni's and KC Raceware front hubs/rotors.
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Old 07-06-06, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by cpa7man
Not legal for 1st gen. Refer to PCS-39. Spindles are fine but FC rotor is listed as 10.9" the largest 1st gen rotor is 9.8".

I went with the Susko Koni's and KC Raceware front hubs/rotors.
4-bolt FC rotors are 9.8, same as the alternate GSL-SE brakes.
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Old 07-06-06, 06:37 AM
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[QUOTE.. if there's much else to do to the suspension that's allowed by the book, I'm not seeing it.[/QUOTE]

Lessee..... Build custom rear suspension lateral location scheme, build tubular "speedway" style anti-roll bars for sprung and unsprung weight reduction. Make new front lower control arms and radius rods for reduced weight and improved geometry. Make new strut housings with modified camber to use 2.25" coilovers on threaded body. Replace outer tie rod end with heim joint and figure out correct location to improve bump steer (might wait until Jan.)

All of this is of course going to require that you get your hands on some suspension software and start figuring out what you want it to do. Susprog is cheap, works pretty well.

[QUOTE.. We actually have Simaris's 12A and some other stuff... [/QUOTE]

I have Simaris's 12A too. How many motor's did they have?
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Old 07-06-06, 07:14 AM
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Port Huron, MI gives you away Dave.

***I have Simaris's 12A too. How many motor's did they have?***

Dave, "did" is past tense. How many do they have is the correrct question. The last time I saw Jay he was porting a side plate to replace a cooked one.

Have Fun ; )
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Old 07-06-06, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Kenku
4-bolt FC rotors are 9.8, same as the alternate GSL-SE brakes.
My bad. I know very little about FC's. So you use the SE caliper and all is good.

Anyway all these discussions regarding fancy setups?? At last years Runoffs the 1st gen Prod pole sitter had a very a basic setup. Bascially Susko's setup with Advance shocks. Jim even came up for testing the week before qualifying.
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Old 07-06-06, 10:18 AM
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Well, steering arms already got modified for improved bumpsteer though, okay, yeah there are extra bits and pieces here and there. Lateral location is a funny question... I know that the panhard isn't technicially the best possible solution, but it's light. Mumford link maybe?

As of now, Simaris doesn't have any 12A stuff. Traded a Lotus Europa for the remainder of it. Dunno how many 13Bs they've got around... at least 3 "potential" motors.

I'll be honest, a good part of why I brought the whole shock thing up is that I've been doing research here and there and wondering if it'd be worth my time to try to develop a strut from Bilstein internals. Yeah, I know Thrash was just running the Advance shocks (albeit evidently with an unusual spring package and damper settings) but... well, with the Advance shocks being evidently unserviceable, it'd be nice to have something that could be valved to the same sort of configuration (or whatever else). Obviously a bit of machining and testing but... god, that's a lot for the Motons.
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Old 07-06-06, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Kenku
Mumford link maybe?

but... well, with the Advance shocks being evidently unserviceable, it'd be nice to have something that could be valved to the same sort of configuration (or whatever else).
Mumford. What a darned good idea. Bet you could put your roll center right where you wanted it, maybe even incorporate mounts for an anti-sway bar or something........

Why are the Advanced Shocks unserviceable? While Jim and Jay may not be working together anymore, they can be disassembled, modified and rebuilt easily. Is Jay not supporting parts anymore? Even then, it's probably easier to build your own parts for Advanced shocks than to build a complete set from scratch. Just remember to anodize the pistons after any machining........
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Old 07-06-06, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Dyno
Mumford. What a darned good idea. Bet you could put your roll center right where you wanted it, maybe even incorporate mounts for an anti-sway bar or something........

Why are the Advanced Shocks unserviceable? While Jim and Jay may not be working together anymore, they can be disassembled, modified and rebuilt easily. Is Jay not supporting parts anymore? Even then, it's probably easier to build your own parts for Advanced shocks than to build a complete set from scratch. Just remember to anodize the pistons after any machining........
Last I heard from Simaris, the reason Susko dropped the Advance shocks is because they dropped off the face of the earth and he couldn't get shocks to them to get rebuilt; no answering phone calls, or emails or anything much less parts going back and forth. Then again, reverse engineering things is fun. I figured the Bilstein based idea might be easier than making replacement parts though... all the precision crap (pistons, valving, seals, etc) is off-the-shelf, only need to adapt the shock body to the FB spindle.

The question with the mumford is if it's worth the trouble/weight compared to a panhard. In theory it's better, and they worked well for Mallock but in practice? I won't pretend to have an answer for that.
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Old 07-07-06, 07:31 AM
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If your interested in Bilstein internals talk with Mike Vansteinberg at ISC Racing in FL.
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Old 07-11-06, 04:55 PM
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Don't know much about racing suspensions, but I did just send a set of spindles off to ISC racing to have them modified for the Bilstein inserts.

ISC does all the modifcations so you do not have to worry about engineering anything. For the price, I don't think you can beat the bilsteins, or the setup that ISC puts out.

I know Gforce is well known, and jim is a great guy and all, but his shock setup is way to expensive compared to the ISC stuff.
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