Point me in the right direction.
11-13-12, 01:41 PM
#1
Point me in the right direction.
Hey guys/gals, so as my build is getting closer to being finished I'm getting down to stuff that I believe will require me to mod according to the rules of whatever class I'm trying to get into. The main reason I built the car was to gain experience that is crucial for an engineering student trying to get into the automotive industry, but now I also want to use the car for what it was made for. 
I checked out the FAQ and it looks like, per your guys recommendations, that NASA is a good place to start for instruction.
I guess I'm also looking for advice as to what power output should I be shooting for/can I go custom subframe? I prefer not to be thrown to the big dogs as a newcomer to track days.
Region: northern/southern California
Car: 3rd Gen RX-7
Motor: 20b w/ GTX42R
Cage: I have a chromoly raceshop rollbar (4 pt)
What other info is needed? I have full pillowball suspension bushings, does that matter, etc....?
Cheers,
Mike
I checked out the FAQ and it looks like, per your guys recommendations, that NASA is a good place to start for instruction.
I guess I'm also looking for advice as to what power output should I be shooting for/can I go custom subframe? I prefer not to be thrown to the big dogs as a newcomer to track days.
Region: northern/southern California
Car: 3rd Gen RX-7
Motor: 20b w/ GTX42R
Cage: I have a chromoly raceshop rollbar (4 pt)
What other info is needed? I have full pillowball suspension bushings, does that matter, etc....?
Cheers,
Mike
11-13-12, 02:22 PM
#2
Mike,
For NASA you most likely will find yourself in one of the Super Touring Classes.
In SCCA you can run in ITE or Super Production, both are regional based classes. There are few rules beyond safety and tires. Cal Club class rules. San Francisco Region rules.
In either of these sanctioning bodies you will be running with the big dogs. Realize that the car you have built will have GT1 level capabilities.
If you are new to tracking a car, you might want to rent or borrow something more timid for a few track days. Learning in a car with limited power and a good setup will most likely have a much better outcome than starting with something unknown that has the potential to reach lightspeed.
Guy
For NASA you most likely will find yourself in one of the Super Touring Classes.
In SCCA you can run in ITE or Super Production, both are regional based classes. There are few rules beyond safety and tires. Cal Club class rules. San Francisco Region rules.
In either of these sanctioning bodies you will be running with the big dogs. Realize that the car you have built will have GT1 level capabilities.
If you are new to tracking a car, you might want to rent or borrow something more timid for a few track days. Learning in a car with limited power and a good setup will most likely have a much better outcome than starting with something unknown that has the potential to reach lightspeed.
Guy
11-13-12, 03:11 PM
#3
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in NASA you can do TT also, its nice because its not wheel to wheel.
i agree with fingerlock though, if you've never been on track before a 20B FD is way too much car to start with.
i agree with fingerlock though, if you've never been on track before a 20B FD is way too much car to start with.
11-13-12, 03:23 PM
#4
You'll need a full cage for anything more than a track day with either sanctioning body.
I'll 3rd the thought of starting out in something besides the track weapon you want to build. Rent a spec miata for a track day. Its a momentum car, you will learn to carry speed through the corner a lot better than if you have 400hp to get you, into/out of, trouble. You'll find you'll need to pedal your RX pretty hard to go as fast as the chick car with 1/3 the HP.
I'll 3rd the thought of starting out in something besides the track weapon you want to build. Rent a spec miata for a track day. Its a momentum car, you will learn to carry speed through the corner a lot better than if you have 400hp to get you, into/out of, trouble. You'll find you'll need to pedal your RX pretty hard to go as fast as the chick car with 1/3 the HP.
11-13-12, 03:44 PM
#5
For track day instruction you will be in NASA HPDE1 which won't be with the "big dogs" it will be with all the people who are new and you won't be racing at all 
. so you'll be fine.
but you might want to bring your DD or something to the first one if you're not comfortable with your driving abilities and your car....
. so you'll be fine.but you might want to bring your DD or something to the first one if you're not comfortable with your driving abilities and your car....
11-13-12, 04:46 PM
#6
Mike,
For NASA you most likely will find yourself in one of the Super Touring Classes.
In SCCA you can run in ITE or Super Production, both are regional based classes. There are few rules beyond safety and tires. Cal Club class rules. San Francisco Region rules.
In either of these sanctioning bodies you will be running with the big dogs. Realize that the car you have built will have GT1 level capabilities.
If you are new to tracking a car, you might want to rent or borrow something more timid for a few track days. Learning in a car with limited power and a good setup will most likely have a much better outcome than starting with something unknown that has the potential to reach lightspeed.
Guy
For NASA you most likely will find yourself in one of the Super Touring Classes.
In SCCA you can run in ITE or Super Production, both are regional based classes. There are few rules beyond safety and tires. Cal Club class rules. San Francisco Region rules.
In either of these sanctioning bodies you will be running with the big dogs. Realize that the car you have built will have GT1 level capabilities.
If you are new to tracking a car, you might want to rent or borrow something more timid for a few track days. Learning in a car with limited power and a good setup will most likely have a much better outcome than starting with something unknown that has the potential to reach lightspeed.
Guy
You'll need a full cage for anything more than a track day with either sanctioning body.
I'll 3rd the thought of starting out in something besides the track weapon you want to build. Rent a spec miata for a track day. Its a momentum car, you will learn to carry speed through the corner a lot better than if you have 400hp to get you, into/out of, trouble. You'll find you'll need to pedal your RX pretty hard to go as fast as the chick car with 1/3 the HP.
I'll 3rd the thought of starting out in something besides the track weapon you want to build. Rent a spec miata for a track day. Its a momentum car, you will learn to carry speed through the corner a lot better than if you have 400hp to get you, into/out of, trouble. You'll find you'll need to pedal your RX pretty hard to go as fast as the chick car with 1/3 the HP.
For track day instruction you will be in NASA HPDE1 which won't be with the "big dogs" it will be with all the people who are new and you won't be racing at all . so you'll be fine.
but you might want to bring your DD or something to the first one if you're not comfortable with your driving abilities and your car....
. so you'll be fine.but you might want to bring your DD or something to the first one if you're not comfortable with your driving abilities and your car....
(see link below) I have a 04 350z that I daily. I'll definitely look into starting off in that.https://www.rx7club.com/build-thread...ckadde-853345/
Cheers,
Mike
11-13-12, 04:49 PM
#7
i would suggest starting out in local autocrosses to become familiar with the car before moving up to the open track. with the mods you have done so far you are already looking into open classes which are going to put you head to head with some very highly modified cars.
even on low boost that thing is going to have a rather steep learning curve.
even on low boost that thing is going to have a rather steep learning curve.
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11-13-12, 05:22 PM
#9
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If you think you want to do W2W competition, make sure you meet cage requirements
NASA
15.6.18 Roll Cage Tubing Sizes
For the purposes of determining roll bar tubing sizes, vehicle weight is as raced, but
without fuel and driver. Note: There is an allowance of minus 0.010 inches on all tubing
thicknesses. Minimum tubing size for the roll cage is:
Up to 1500 lbs.
1.375” x 0.095” Seamless Alloy (4130), Seamless mild steel (CDS Mechanical) or DOM
1.500” x 0.080” Seamless Alloy (4130), Seamless mild steel (CDS Mechanical) or DOM
1501 - 2500 lbs.
1.500” x 0.095” Seamless Alloy (4130), Seamless mild steel (CDS Mechanical) or DOM
1.500” x 0.120” ERW* (No issuance of log books for cars with ERW cages 04/30/03)
*Note- Specifications listed for reference for inspection of grandfathered vehicles.
2501 - 3000 lbs.
1.500” x 0.120” Seamless Alloy (4130), Seamless mild steel (CDS Mechanical) or DOM
1.750” x 0.095” Seamless Alloy (4130), Seamless mild steel (CDS Mechanical) or DOM
1.750” x 0.120” ERW* (No issuance of log books for cars with ERW cages 04/30/03)
*Note- Specifications listed for reference for inspection of grandfathered vehicles.
NASA
15.6.18 Roll Cage Tubing Sizes
For the purposes of determining roll bar tubing sizes, vehicle weight is as raced, but
without fuel and driver. Note: There is an allowance of minus 0.010 inches on all tubing
thicknesses. Minimum tubing size for the roll cage is:
Up to 1500 lbs.
1.375” x 0.095” Seamless Alloy (4130), Seamless mild steel (CDS Mechanical) or DOM
1.500” x 0.080” Seamless Alloy (4130), Seamless mild steel (CDS Mechanical) or DOM
1501 - 2500 lbs.
1.500” x 0.095” Seamless Alloy (4130), Seamless mild steel (CDS Mechanical) or DOM
1.500” x 0.120” ERW* (No issuance of log books for cars with ERW cages 04/30/03)
*Note- Specifications listed for reference for inspection of grandfathered vehicles.
2501 - 3000 lbs.
1.500” x 0.120” Seamless Alloy (4130), Seamless mild steel (CDS Mechanical) or DOM
1.750” x 0.095” Seamless Alloy (4130), Seamless mild steel (CDS Mechanical) or DOM
1.750” x 0.120” ERW* (No issuance of log books for cars with ERW cages 04/30/03)
*Note- Specifications listed for reference for inspection of grandfathered vehicles.
11-13-12, 06:15 PM
#10
NASA would be my recommendation.
A discussion to have LATTER is how your car will class, but because of the kind of build you are talking about you should be aware that the power to weight a 20B turbo RX-7 will be at will likely put you into ST (super touring) the problem with regular super touring is you cannot mess with the subframes at all, further you cannot cut up the floor or trans tunnel at all. And only minor modifications can be made to the firewall. Eclipse any of those in your build and you are running STR or SU. SU has anything and everything up to old retired daytona prototypes. STR you are competing wtih all kinds of open cockpit sports racers and will get crushed. Those are the big dog classes you talk about.
But, back to what you should be thinking about. Your driving. You will start in HPDE. Follow the advice of others here. Use a nearly 100% stock car of some kind or rent someones sorted track car. There is something that very few people even who do track days think about; nothing distracts from and detracts from the fun and leaning that can be had at track days more than sorting a car. The more modifications you have in a car the more sorting is need and nothing will expose the weak spots and non-sorted things on a performance car quicker than a track day. When you are learning you really dont want to have your mind focused on what those noises are, whether or not the car will hold together and what systems in the car are not fully engineered. So first few events use a stock car or someones sorted track car. Once you get comfortable in HPDE then use a few to sort out the car, with what you have going it could take 3-4 weekends and a LOT more money than you have anticipated to shore up weak spots in your build. This is not me knocking your or other skills but all builds require testing, tuning, and re-re-engineering.
Even in HPDE your roll bar/cage has to meet certian requirements. You dont NEED one, but if you have one there are only certian brands or construction allowed. My advice would be to either leave all the stock systems in place, or go with a schroth 4pt belt and buy a good helmet. Anything more than that and my strong recommendations are go full competition rules compliant cage, full race seat installed per the rules and a full 6-point harness, PLUS a head and neck restraint. Going half way with race safety equipment is more dangerous than having none at all because safety systems are just that systems. Factory systems are designed to work as a system and race systems are designed to rely on the systems as a whole.
Being a chief tech inspector nothing takes more of my time and makes participants more annoyed than the process to figure out if i can let their home made roll bar with tuner seats and a 5-point harness even go near the track.
My personal opinion, ive never found autocross to be necessary or even useful in learning car control. But having too much car at your first ANYTHING autocross or otherwise will hurt your learning process.
Of the few things i wish i knew when i started.
1. Start with a mostly STOCK car with STOCK safety systems.
2. Initially spend money on a GOOD helmet and GOOD brake pads. Leave everything else alone.
3. Sort the supercar build once your have a NUMBER, like a YEAR, of track weekends under your belt.
4. Read the CCR (NASA) in full if you want to know what will be a show stopper for your car getting on track at all.
PS. Honestly the guys who i think are the smartest about their peformance/race driving progresson, do a few weekends with their stock street car, then rent a spec racer like a spec miata or 944spec and use that to find what kind of racing they will like as well as learn how to handle a race car. Then maybe attend a race driving weekend school, and from there decide what racecar they want to run.
A discussion to have LATTER is how your car will class, but because of the kind of build you are talking about you should be aware that the power to weight a 20B turbo RX-7 will be at will likely put you into ST (super touring) the problem with regular super touring is you cannot mess with the subframes at all, further you cannot cut up the floor or trans tunnel at all. And only minor modifications can be made to the firewall. Eclipse any of those in your build and you are running STR or SU. SU has anything and everything up to old retired daytona prototypes. STR you are competing wtih all kinds of open cockpit sports racers and will get crushed. Those are the big dog classes you talk about.
But, back to what you should be thinking about. Your driving. You will start in HPDE. Follow the advice of others here. Use a nearly 100% stock car of some kind or rent someones sorted track car. There is something that very few people even who do track days think about; nothing distracts from and detracts from the fun and leaning that can be had at track days more than sorting a car. The more modifications you have in a car the more sorting is need and nothing will expose the weak spots and non-sorted things on a performance car quicker than a track day. When you are learning you really dont want to have your mind focused on what those noises are, whether or not the car will hold together and what systems in the car are not fully engineered. So first few events use a stock car or someones sorted track car. Once you get comfortable in HPDE then use a few to sort out the car, with what you have going it could take 3-4 weekends and a LOT more money than you have anticipated to shore up weak spots in your build. This is not me knocking your or other skills but all builds require testing, tuning, and re-re-engineering.
Even in HPDE your roll bar/cage has to meet certian requirements. You dont NEED one, but if you have one there are only certian brands or construction allowed. My advice would be to either leave all the stock systems in place, or go with a schroth 4pt belt and buy a good helmet. Anything more than that and my strong recommendations are go full competition rules compliant cage, full race seat installed per the rules and a full 6-point harness, PLUS a head and neck restraint. Going half way with race safety equipment is more dangerous than having none at all because safety systems are just that systems. Factory systems are designed to work as a system and race systems are designed to rely on the systems as a whole.
Being a chief tech inspector nothing takes more of my time and makes participants more annoyed than the process to figure out if i can let their home made roll bar with tuner seats and a 5-point harness even go near the track.
My personal opinion, ive never found autocross to be necessary or even useful in learning car control. But having too much car at your first ANYTHING autocross or otherwise will hurt your learning process.
Of the few things i wish i knew when i started.
1. Start with a mostly STOCK car with STOCK safety systems.
2. Initially spend money on a GOOD helmet and GOOD brake pads. Leave everything else alone.
3. Sort the supercar build once your have a NUMBER, like a YEAR, of track weekends under your belt.
4. Read the CCR (NASA) in full if you want to know what will be a show stopper for your car getting on track at all.
PS. Honestly the guys who i think are the smartest about their peformance/race driving progresson, do a few weekends with their stock street car, then rent a spec racer like a spec miata or 944spec and use that to find what kind of racing they will like as well as learn how to handle a race car. Then maybe attend a race driving weekend school, and from there decide what racecar they want to run.
11-14-12, 11:33 PM
#11
A guy I dragged into track driving started out with his street 350Z. He did about 5 events in it and realized he was going pretty damn fast. Fast enough to write the car off if something happened.
He bought an FB RX7 that had been built for EP and I went through it for him, set everything up. I told him he was going to want to throw rocks at the Z once he got a taste of the EP car on hot slicks. He did a double school at Roebling Road and every session he kept coming in saying, "I keep pushing the car harder in the turns and it keeps sticking, how fast will this thing go?!?! I told him to go faster until his head feels 65% heavier than it did driving the Z because the car should be able to hit 1.6 G's.
We also have a Spec Miata together. His driving has improved after switching back and forth. He's showing a lot more speed at the apex in the EP car now after learning to drive the Spec Pinata.
Good luck, you've gotten some good tips here to keep you from picking up bad habits that are a bitch to break.
He bought an FB RX7 that had been built for EP and I went through it for him, set everything up. I told him he was going to want to throw rocks at the Z once he got a taste of the EP car on hot slicks. He did a double school at Roebling Road and every session he kept coming in saying, "I keep pushing the car harder in the turns and it keeps sticking, how fast will this thing go?!?! I told him to go faster until his head feels 65% heavier than it did driving the Z because the car should be able to hit 1.6 G's.
We also have a Spec Miata together. His driving has improved after switching back and forth. He's showing a lot more speed at the apex in the EP car now after learning to drive the Spec Pinata.
Good luck, you've gotten some good tips here to keep you from picking up bad habits that are a bitch to break.
11-15-12, 11:10 AM
#12
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350Z is pretty darn fast too, for something to learn in. I've seen a pretty bad roll over at the track in a street 350Z doing HPDE. That car was totaled. When you have a car that can hit triple digit speeds without breaking a sweat, you should look into some serious protection if your going to push it on the track.
11-15-12, 10:49 PM
#13
at my last HPDE my corolla's brake master cylinder failed on Saturday so I came back Sunday with my Stock Subaru (FC wasn't ready) which has a Schroth 4 point and was told by the tech guy that I wasn't allowed to use it (he said all 4 points are illegal). I didn't really believe him since the Schroth has the ASM (anti-submarine) strap... but wasn't going to argue with him since I still have my stock belts too, so I just used those.
I'm not planning on tracking the Subaru again so I never actually looked it up.
11-16-12, 11:47 AM
#14
The Schroth 4-pts are the only legal ones i know of. But, yes make sure they have the 2008 FIA tag.
For a brief period of time all 4-points were illegal but as of the last 2 years you those belts with 08 FIA tags (or stock 4-point belts) are usable because they have the break-away inside shoulder belt, effectively making them 3-point belts in a crash. Which is ideal for use with no roll bar and stock seats.
Your tech dood did not have a good understanding of the rules.
For a brief period of time all 4-points were illegal but as of the last 2 years you those belts with 08 FIA tags (or stock 4-point belts) are usable because they have the break-away inside shoulder belt, effectively making them 3-point belts in a crash. Which is ideal for use with no roll bar and stock seats.
Your tech dood did not have a good understanding of the rules.
NASA CCR Section 11.3
Effective May 1,
2011, the only four-point belt systems that are allowed for use in HPDE / TT are
1) those that carry an “FIA B-xxx.T/08 certification, or 2) those that carry a label
from the belt manufacturer stating that the belts meet Federal Motor Vehicle
Safety Standard (FMVSS) 209 AND that the belts were designated for the
specific vehicle (e.g. “For use only in BMW E36 models”). Such label must be
easily visible to the NASA inspector. Note- four-point belt sets that have a DOT
certification alone are not allowed.
Effective May 1,
2011, the only four-point belt systems that are allowed for use in HPDE / TT are
1) those that carry an “FIA B-xxx.T/08 certification, or 2) those that carry a label
from the belt manufacturer stating that the belts meet Federal Motor Vehicle
Safety Standard (FMVSS) 209 AND that the belts were designated for the
specific vehicle (e.g. “For use only in BMW E36 models”). Such label must be
easily visible to the NASA inspector. Note- four-point belt sets that have a DOT
certification alone are not allowed.
11-16-12, 02:11 PM
#15
The Schroth 4-pts are the only legal ones i know of. But, yes make sure they have the 2008 FIA tag.
For a brief period of time all 4-points were illegal but as of the last 2 years you those belts with 08 FIA tags (or stock 4-point belts) are usable because they have the break-away inside shoulder belt, effectively making them 3-point belts in a crash. Which is ideal for use with no roll bar and stock seats.
Your tech dood did not have a good understanding of the rules.
For a brief period of time all 4-points were illegal but as of the last 2 years you those belts with 08 FIA tags (or stock 4-point belts) are usable because they have the break-away inside shoulder belt, effectively making them 3-point belts in a crash. Which is ideal for use with no roll bar and stock seats.
Your tech dood did not have a good understanding of the rules.
I have the rallye 4 which aren't FIA certified:
SCHROTH RACING > Professional Racing Harnesses
the PROFI II ASMs are:
SCHROTH RACING > Professional Racing Harnesses
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