extend porting vs. bridge porting
10-22-09, 11:15 PM
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extend porting vs. bridge porting
I am reading up on porting the intake ports on my 13B 6 port.
What I am reading versus what I am hearing about bridge porting confuses me. Everyone I talk to says a bridge ported 13B will ast 6-12months. PERIOD. And from what I'm seeing only the monster/j porting results in coolant seeping into the housing because of the cut that has to be made into the o-ring and housing mod. As far as I can tell from this link: http://www.turborx7.com/portingpictures.htm
a bridge port can be driveable and doesn't have a shortened lifespan. The extend port looks to be what I need for what I want to do(drift) with one of my fc's. I hope to learn enough about this before next fall when I start purchasing things.
Which port would result in the best gains without sacraficing the longevity of my engine.
What I am reading versus what I am hearing about bridge porting confuses me. Everyone I talk to says a bridge ported 13B will ast 6-12months. PERIOD. And from what I'm seeing only the monster/j porting results in coolant seeping into the housing because of the cut that has to be made into the o-ring and housing mod. As far as I can tell from this link: http://www.turborx7.com/portingpictures.htm
a bridge port can be driveable and doesn't have a shortened lifespan. The extend port looks to be what I need for what I want to do(drift) with one of my fc's. I hope to learn enough about this before next fall when I start purchasing things.
Which port would result in the best gains without sacraficing the longevity of my engine.
10-23-09, 09:16 AM
#3
Old Rotary Dog
First answer the question: "why do I want to port and what am I looking to get out of it?". For general performance, a big street port is probably your best solution. Remember, the bigger the, the less "behaved" that engine will be on the street.
-b
-b
10-23-09, 09:28 AM
#4
I am reading up on porting the intake ports on my 13B 6 port.
What I am reading versus what I am hearing about bridge porting confuses me. Everyone I talk to says a bridge ported 13B will ast 6-12months. PERIOD. And from what I'm seeing only the monster/j porting results in coolant seeping into the housing because of the cut that has to be made into the o-ring and housing mod. As far as I can tell from this link: http://www.turborx7.com/portingpictures.htm
a bridge port can be driveable and doesn't have a shortened lifespan. The extend port looks to be what I need for what I want to do(drift) with one of my fc's. I hope to learn enough about this before next fall when I start purchasing things.
Which port would result in the best gains without sacraficing the longevity of my engine.
What I am reading versus what I am hearing about bridge porting confuses me. Everyone I talk to says a bridge ported 13B will ast 6-12months. PERIOD. And from what I'm seeing only the monster/j porting results in coolant seeping into the housing because of the cut that has to be made into the o-ring and housing mod. As far as I can tell from this link: http://www.turborx7.com/portingpictures.htm
a bridge port can be driveable and doesn't have a shortened lifespan. The extend port looks to be what I need for what I want to do(drift) with one of my fc's. I hope to learn enough about this before next fall when I start purchasing things.
Which port would result in the best gains without sacraficing the longevity of my engine.
Either port will sacrifice longevity, assuming they are done properly. Withat that said, a bridgeport will not run properly on thestock ECU. To add to the insult, you will not be able to run an "extended" port on a 13B, due to its natural port design.
10-24-09, 02:06 AM
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When you say one can't run an extended port on a 13B does that have anything to due to it having 6ports? Do I need a 4 port instead?
Well I'm not intending on using a factory ecu to manage the engine when the time comes. The black fc I'd like to build needs to be street legal but as radical as possible.
So let us say hypothetically we turbo a TII 13B 6 port engine that I swap into my 87FC. I obviously need to do something different with my harness...asides from that what would be the hp/tq ceiling on and unmodified TII 13B 6 port with a large turbo and the best standalone and fuel delivery money can buy?
Would that scenario be any less likely to end prematurely?
I understand that no matter what, the addition of stress on components that are designs to see/feel <200hp in the 13B will result in failure eventually, but can't a rotary engine be built to be bulletproof? That is what I want; a bulletproof 13B or 20B if that would be better.
What I want to do with this car: Race and Drift
Budget: I'd like to do it for <$20k
Well I'm not intending on using a factory ecu to manage the engine when the time comes. The black fc I'd like to build needs to be street legal but as radical as possible.
So let us say hypothetically we turbo a TII 13B 6 port engine that I swap into my 87FC. I obviously need to do something different with my harness...asides from that what would be the hp/tq ceiling on and unmodified TII 13B 6 port with a large turbo and the best standalone and fuel delivery money can buy?
Would that scenario be any less likely to end prematurely?
I understand that no matter what, the addition of stress on components that are designs to see/feel <200hp in the 13B will result in failure eventually, but can't a rotary engine be built to be bulletproof? That is what I want; a bulletproof 13B or 20B if that would be better.
What I want to do with this car: Race and Drift
Budget: I'd like to do it for <$20k
Last edited by cis2711; 10-24-09 at 02:11 AM.
10-24-09, 04:32 AM
#7
Drifting has alot to do with how you drive(99.9%) and setup the suspension. Tire size and air pressure can also get u comfortable sideways. power isn't everything, the clutch and e-brake go a long way in controlling *** out conditions.
There is no tII 6 port, they only made a 4 port turbo at the factory. Is it a 4lug or 5 lug 87fc??? They have different rearends in them as well
If you got 20K y don't you look into a p-port 20b or 26b????????? Most don't have 20k to throw at an 87fc though, do you??? 10k RPM p-port 4 rotor power gives me wood
n/a-rotaries are damn reliable when properly tuned, built and driven. Any thing will break if you don't do it right then abuse it... which happens more often than not.
There is no tII 6 port, they only made a 4 port turbo at the factory. Is it a 4lug or 5 lug 87fc??? They have different rearends in them as well
If you got 20K y don't you look into a p-port 20b or 26b????????? Most don't have 20k to throw at an 87fc though, do you??? 10k RPM p-port 4 rotor power gives me wood
n/a-rotaries are damn reliable when properly tuned, built and driven. Any thing will break if you don't do it right then abuse it... which happens more often than not.
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10-24-09, 08:22 AM
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Stock port FTW
Questions are: will it be N/A or turbo, desired powerband-power etc... To much variables. Longevity of given porting is also hard to tell, for example, really agressive early opening streetport(that supports only 1/3 of corner seal) from my point of view, is more suspect to fail than properly done bridgeport... Then here is your desire for street legal ability. Some people are driving bridgeports(PPs etc..) on the street and driveability for them is good(again personal thing) but you can´t kill noise without killing power...
Which TII block?? It seems that S4 engine is prone to cracking rear iron upper dowel area at certain power levels...
stock porting doesn´t limit your MAX power/torque in turbo engine(of course, there is limit, but probably far higher than what you are planning to run)
For your intended aplication, I would go with properly done full-cut half-bridgeport
Questions are: will it be N/A or turbo, desired powerband-power etc... To much variables. Longevity of given porting is also hard to tell, for example, really agressive early opening streetport(that supports only 1/3 of corner seal) from my point of view, is more suspect to fail than properly done bridgeport... Then here is your desire for street legal ability. Some people are driving bridgeports(PPs etc..) on the street and driveability for them is good(again personal thing) but you can´t kill noise without killing power...Which TII block?? It seems that S4 engine is prone to cracking rear iron upper dowel area at certain power levels...
stock porting doesn´t limit your MAX power/torque in turbo engine(of course, there is limit, but probably far higher than what you are planning to run)
For your intended aplication, I would go with properly done full-cut half-bridgeport
10-24-09, 11:00 AM
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Very helpful thus far guys thank you.
As far as what power I may think I need for drifting or racing I have only the slightest clue. I have only read drifitng manuals and racing manuals I have never done it. So its good for me to get a feel from other people about what I need.
I would imagine that 300rwhp would be just fine in a rwd fc that weighs 2600lbs. I know it is difficult to get that out of an n/a 13B. A turboed app. would be more up my alley I assume.
I did a mazda bp-t swap into a ford escort gt last May and I have since been pleased with it. I did a soft rebuild on it and restored it to running condition and it hasn't blown up because I did it right. I would like to do the same with my fc's.
Both my fc's are 87 5 lug fc's. Both 5 speed. One is a black mutt sport model with manual windows and an open rear diff, the other is a blue glx model with the 4.10:1 mechanical posi. The sport mutt fc is the car that runs perfectly and is drivable. The blue glx needs an VAF and a fuel pump as well as something to keep it from flooding. I'll figure that out eventually. I haven't decided whether I want to put the posi behind the black base model fc and drift it...or keep the posi in the glx and do my turbo swap in it and make the glx the drift car. I like the idea of manual windows in the black fc for a lighter car.
I believe I'd like to go with a 4 port 13B turbo build with whatever port is reliable and will yield enough flow to produce ~300hp. More power would be okay but 300 I think will be plenty to start with.
As far as the trans is concerned, does PAR make a kit that we can buy and have installed in our trans to keep gears from stripping? OR is there a trans that is best to use in the drifting application? I have read that some people adapt the supra trans.
As far as my budget is concerned: I need to do everything to the fc for a total under 20k that includes the engine, suspension, drivetrain, body, wheel/tires, exhaust, tuning, safety equipment for racing, rollcage. Hopefully it can be done for under 20k.
As far as what power I may think I need for drifting or racing I have only the slightest clue. I have only read drifitng manuals and racing manuals I have never done it. So its good for me to get a feel from other people about what I need.
I would imagine that 300rwhp would be just fine in a rwd fc that weighs 2600lbs. I know it is difficult to get that out of an n/a 13B. A turboed app. would be more up my alley I assume.
I did a mazda bp-t swap into a ford escort gt last May and I have since been pleased with it. I did a soft rebuild on it and restored it to running condition and it hasn't blown up because I did it right. I would like to do the same with my fc's.
Both my fc's are 87 5 lug fc's. Both 5 speed. One is a black mutt sport model with manual windows and an open rear diff, the other is a blue glx model with the 4.10:1 mechanical posi. The sport mutt fc is the car that runs perfectly and is drivable. The blue glx needs an VAF and a fuel pump as well as something to keep it from flooding. I'll figure that out eventually. I haven't decided whether I want to put the posi behind the black base model fc and drift it...or keep the posi in the glx and do my turbo swap in it and make the glx the drift car. I like the idea of manual windows in the black fc for a lighter car.
I believe I'd like to go with a 4 port 13B turbo build with whatever port is reliable and will yield enough flow to produce ~300hp. More power would be okay but 300 I think will be plenty to start with.
As far as the trans is concerned, does PAR make a kit that we can buy and have installed in our trans to keep gears from stripping? OR is there a trans that is best to use in the drifting application? I have read that some people adapt the supra trans.
As far as my budget is concerned: I need to do everything to the fc for a total under 20k that includes the engine, suspension, drivetrain, body, wheel/tires, exhaust, tuning, safety equipment for racing, rollcage. Hopefully it can be done for under 20k.
Last edited by cis2711; 10-24-09 at 11:12 AM.
10-24-09, 01:07 PM
#10
because $20K won't get the project done.
i can't say i know much about drifting setups, but i'd imagine you'd want to have the LSD behind you.
seeing that you've never driven a turbo rotary before, i would say start with a solid rebuild on stock ports. this is one of the few times you'll hear me recommend stock ports, but i think in your case it would be appropriate. you can make 300 on stock ports with the right turbo and support. it will mean having to open the engine again whenever you do choose to port it. at that point, i don't see you needing more than a decent streetport.
use your time and resources to get yourself and the rest of the car sorted. learn as much as you can and spend your money as wisely as you can.
Both my fc's are 87 5 lug fc's. Both 5 speed. One is a black mutt sport model with manual windows and an open rear diff, the other is a blue glx model with the 4.10:1 mechanical posi. The sport mutt fc is the car that runs perfectly and is drivable. The blue glx needs an VAF and a fuel pump as well as something to keep it from flooding. I'll figure that out eventually. I haven't decided whether I want to put the posi behind the black base model fc and drift it...or keep the posi in the glx and do my turbo swap in it and make the glx the drift car. I like the idea of manual windows in the black fc for a lighter car.
use your time and resources to get yourself and the rest of the car sorted. learn as much as you can and spend your money as wisely as you can.
10-25-09, 12:37 AM
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I have been told that I cannot turbo an N/A 13B. People tell me that I need the TII rotors to do so. I guess that has something to do with compression ratios being too high in the N/A rotors.
Hmm. Could I use my current 6 port 13B's? theoretically if I were to boost the N/A 6 port engines the compression would be too high. Couldn't I counter that with 93 octane and retarded timing at some points in the tune? I don't need to run a MASSIVE about of boost. I'd assume 10-15lbs at whatever cfm that is practical would be just fine. Obviously we are talking standalone here. Haltech? Has anyone here had sucess with MSI or II on their rotary?
Hmm. Could I use my current 6 port 13B's? theoretically if I were to boost the N/A 6 port engines the compression would be too high. Couldn't I counter that with 93 octane and retarded timing at some points in the tune? I don't need to run a MASSIVE about of boost. I'd assume 10-15lbs at whatever cfm that is practical would be just fine. Obviously we are talking standalone here. Haltech? Has anyone here had sucess with MSI or II on their rotary?
10-25-09, 12:52 PM
#12
anyway, the decision is totally yours, but the people that told you you can't turbocharge a 6 port are wrong! period. it's not an ideal situation, but it does work and it can work quite well. if you're going to go through the trouble of rebuilding with T2 rotors, then i'd say you might as well get a T2 motor and start there.
i'll assume MSI and MSII are MegaSquirt? if so, then yes people use them in a plethora of rotary applications (stock, race ports, forced induction, etc.). there's a whole forum for MegaSquirt questions when you're ready.
EDIT
actually, i just read my response and i think i see where you may have misunderstood what i was saying. are you asking about the 6 port because i said start with a stock rebuild on the stock ports? if so, i meant on the turbo engine that you acquire. i was simply saying i'd recommend not streetporting it at first. if that's what it is, then sorry for the confusion.
10-25-09, 08:35 PM
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13brefc86- are you referring to MSII as cheap? I know many people who have nothing but good things to say about MSII. Haltech has a good reputation apparently.
diabolical1- I'd like to think that I can start off with my current engine but if it would be easier to source a S4 TII engine then I guess that is fine too. I'd like to try a decent turbo/mani/big exhaust on my factory six-port with an upgraded fuel system, nice standalone, better iginition, and front mount IC. Theoretically I could get a rich tune using 93 octane and not have many problem managing 300hp on the factory internals with stock ports..? Right? That way it can be a test engine to see how I handle the FC with enough power to be comfortable in the drifitng scene. What would i have to worry about as far as internals that would go first? There's always that smoking gun component that fails first. What is it usually in the N/A 13B?
diabolical1- I'd like to think that I can start off with my current engine but if it would be easier to source a S4 TII engine then I guess that is fine too. I'd like to try a decent turbo/mani/big exhaust on my factory six-port with an upgraded fuel system, nice standalone, better iginition, and front mount IC. Theoretically I could get a rich tune using 93 octane and not have many problem managing 300hp on the factory internals with stock ports..? Right? That way it can be a test engine to see how I handle the FC with enough power to be comfortable in the drifitng scene. What would i have to worry about as far as internals that would go first? There's always that smoking gun component that fails first. What is it usually in the N/A 13B?
10-27-09, 08:41 PM
#15
13brefc86- are you referring to MSII as cheap? I know many people who have nothing but good things to say about MSII. Haltech has a good reputation apparently.
diabolical1- I'd like to think that I can start off with my current engine but if it would be easier to source a S4 TII engine then I guess that is fine too. I'd like to try a decent turbo/mani/big exhaust on my factory six-port with an upgraded fuel system, nice standalone, better iginition, and front mount IC. Theoretically I could get a rich tune using 93 octane and not have many problem managing 300hp on the factory internals with stock ports..? Right? That way it can be a test engine to see how I handle the FC with enough power to be comfortable in the drifitng scene. What would i have to worry about as far as internals that would go first? There's always that smoking gun component that fails first. What is it usually in the N/A 13B?
diabolical1- I'd like to think that I can start off with my current engine but if it would be easier to source a S4 TII engine then I guess that is fine too. I'd like to try a decent turbo/mani/big exhaust on my factory six-port with an upgraded fuel system, nice standalone, better iginition, and front mount IC. Theoretically I could get a rich tune using 93 octane and not have many problem managing 300hp on the factory internals with stock ports..? Right? That way it can be a test engine to see how I handle the FC with enough power to be comfortable in the drifitng scene. What would i have to worry about as far as internals that would go first? There's always that smoking gun component that fails first. What is it usually in the N/A 13B?
I'm getting out from under the turbo rain cloud and going with a wild little 4 Port full bridgeport N/A, i'm only aiming for 210hp.
10-28-09, 11:02 AM
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No i never said its cheap but i just have a couple of friends that used it and didn't like it. i myself have a haltech and like it.
11-15-09, 05:16 AM
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Check our aaroncake.. He successfully turboed an na motor and last I saw he was a t 400rwhp. It may be more now, but his 7 is definently screaming
11-15-09, 12:02 PM
#18
After reading a few of your posts, you stated you havetn actually taken the FC out for any lapping or drifting events.
As anyone else here stated get some wheel time, play with suspension/ tire size combos.
After a season you will probably understand the car more and the power needed.
Theres a thread in the drifitng section for NA drifters of FCs, have a look there and see that there doing it quite well with the 120hp-180hp some have
As anyone else here stated get some wheel time, play with suspension/ tire size combos.
After a season you will probably understand the car more and the power needed.
Theres a thread in the drifitng section for NA drifters of FCs, have a look there and see that there doing it quite well with the 120hp-180hp some have
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