Power FC inovative wideband o2
10-12-05, 01:13 PM
#76
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Hi,
Seems there is a lot of confusion about grounding the LC-1. First some background:
Any current flowing through a wire causes a voltage on that wire. If the wire is a ground wire, that voltage is invisible to the device at the other end (LC-1) and it would reference that point as ground. This means that another devive on the other end of the wire will reference a different ground point and there is a voltage offset between the devices. This is called ground offset. The bigger the current, the bigger that voltage. Because the heater of the sensor draws a relatively large current, it would correspondingly create a large offset. Therefore the LC-1 has multiple grounds. The heater ground (blue wire) can be connected to any convenient chassis ground, because the only thing in the LC-1 that references to it is the heater, and it is not critical.
On a 7-wire LC-1:
The system ground (white) and analog out ground (green) should be connected together and to the ECU or datalogger ground. This way the ground offsets are minimized. If an analog AFR display is used on one of the analog outs, IT's ground should ALSO be connected to the same ground point where system (white) and analog out (green) ground are connected.
On a 6-wire LC-1:
The system/analog out ground (metallic) should be connected to the ECU or datalogger ground. This way the ground offsets are minimized. If an analog AFR display is used on one of the analog outs, IT's ground should ALSO be connected to the same ground point where system/analog out ground (metallic) is connected.
On both LC-1 types:
- Red is switched 12V power
- Yellow is Analog out 1, with the default programming simulating a NBO2 sensor. Leave open and insulated if not used
- Brown is Analog out 2. with the default programming it outputs a linear voltage from 7.35 AFR (Lambda 0.5) at 0 Volt to 22.4 AFR (Lambda 1.523) at 5V. Leave open and insulated if not used.
- Black is the calibration wire. Connect momentarily to ground to calibrated, otherwise leave open. Alternatively you can connect a LED between this and ground to show the LC-1 status.
If an XD-1 is used, it should be grounded ALSO to the same point where the system and analog out grounds are grounded.
Hope this clears it up.
Regards,
Klaus
Seems there is a lot of confusion about grounding the LC-1. First some background:
Any current flowing through a wire causes a voltage on that wire. If the wire is a ground wire, that voltage is invisible to the device at the other end (LC-1) and it would reference that point as ground. This means that another devive on the other end of the wire will reference a different ground point and there is a voltage offset between the devices. This is called ground offset. The bigger the current, the bigger that voltage. Because the heater of the sensor draws a relatively large current, it would correspondingly create a large offset. Therefore the LC-1 has multiple grounds. The heater ground (blue wire) can be connected to any convenient chassis ground, because the only thing in the LC-1 that references to it is the heater, and it is not critical.
On a 7-wire LC-1:
The system ground (white) and analog out ground (green) should be connected together and to the ECU or datalogger ground. This way the ground offsets are minimized. If an analog AFR display is used on one of the analog outs, IT's ground should ALSO be connected to the same ground point where system (white) and analog out (green) ground are connected.
On a 6-wire LC-1:
The system/analog out ground (metallic) should be connected to the ECU or datalogger ground. This way the ground offsets are minimized. If an analog AFR display is used on one of the analog outs, IT's ground should ALSO be connected to the same ground point where system/analog out ground (metallic) is connected.
On both LC-1 types:
- Red is switched 12V power
- Yellow is Analog out 1, with the default programming simulating a NBO2 sensor. Leave open and insulated if not used
- Brown is Analog out 2. with the default programming it outputs a linear voltage from 7.35 AFR (Lambda 0.5) at 0 Volt to 22.4 AFR (Lambda 1.523) at 5V. Leave open and insulated if not used.
- Black is the calibration wire. Connect momentarily to ground to calibrated, otherwise leave open. Alternatively you can connect a LED between this and ground to show the LC-1 status.
If an XD-1 is used, it should be grounded ALSO to the same point where the system and analog out grounds are grounded.
Hope this clears it up.
Regards,
Klaus
10-12-05, 02:03 PM
#77
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Yes, thankyou Matt and klatinn for all the input....I got it straight now, but still curious as to why there is two different versions (6 wire and 7 wire LC-1....I have the 7 wire version). So basically to sum it all up.....
- Red goes to switched power
- Blue goes to a good ground
- White/Green/XD-1 Ground wire should all be tied together and connected to the AN2 on the datalogit
- Yellow is used to simulate a NBO2
- Brown goes to AN1 (0v=7.35 & 5v=22.39 or 22.4 ?)
- Black is used for calibration but not needed if the XD-1 guage is hooked up
So this is the picture I have in my head....please tell me that I am finally right
- Red goes to switched power
- Blue goes to a good ground
- White/Green/XD-1 Ground wire should all be tied together and connected to the AN2 on the datalogit
- Yellow is used to simulate a NBO2
- Brown goes to AN1 (0v=7.35 & 5v=22.39 or 22.4 ?)
- Black is used for calibration but not needed if the XD-1 guage is hooked up
So this is the picture I have in my head....please tell me that I am finally right
10-12-05, 03:07 PM
#78
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I believe Klaus works for Innovative so I'll let him give the final answers but...
The manual sais 0v=7.35 & 5v=22.39 but 5V=22.4 would make very little difference.
I thought the AFR/Lambda readings were passed to the XD-1 through the serial interface so ground for the XD-1 wouldn't matter. Anything hooked up to a analog output would though.
Where is my LC-1 Klaus? My RMA # is 1527 and I sent it USPS August 30. My car is sitting now for about 2 weeks waiting. That is good customer service to come to our forum though
.
The manual sais 0v=7.35 & 5v=22.39 but 5V=22.4 would make very little difference.
I thought the AFR/Lambda readings were passed to the XD-1 through the serial interface so ground for the XD-1 wouldn't matter. Anything hooked up to a analog output would though.
Where is my LC-1 Klaus? My RMA # is 1527 and I sent it USPS August 30. My car is sitting now for about 2 weeks waiting. That is good customer service to come to our forum though
.
10-12-05, 05:44 PM
#79
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Hi,
Matt,
Your RMA#1529 was issued on 9/29. We received your LC-1 on 10/5. Because we were back-logged with LC-1's there was a delay. It's going out either today or tomorrow. Sorry about that. The 22.39 value is correct. I was going from memory.
HYDOUKEN,
I don't know wether the datalogit AN2 input is a floating ground input or a real ground. If it's a floating ground you also need to wire it to a real ground. A floating ground is just a differential input and can't carry any ground currents. Just to make sure I would ground it anyway.
The reason I stated that the XD-1 should preferrably also be grounded to the System/analog out ground point is because the serial port ground is connected to the XD-1 ground internally in the XD-1 and to the LC-1 system ground in the LC-1. If you have any ground offsets between the XD-1 ground and LC-1 system/analog out ground the XD-1's current would go the path of least resistance and could flow through the LC-1 and it's system ground. This can also cause ground offsets and noise on the analog outs.
Regards,
Klaus
Matt,
Your RMA#1529 was issued on 9/29. We received your LC-1 on 10/5. Because we were back-logged with LC-1's there was a delay. It's going out either today or tomorrow. Sorry about that. The 22.39 value is correct. I was going from memory.
HYDOUKEN,
I don't know wether the datalogit AN2 input is a floating ground input or a real ground. If it's a floating ground you also need to wire it to a real ground. A floating ground is just a differential input and can't carry any ground currents. Just to make sure I would ground it anyway.
The reason I stated that the XD-1 should preferrably also be grounded to the System/analog out ground point is because the serial port ground is connected to the XD-1 ground internally in the XD-1 and to the LC-1 system ground in the LC-1. If you have any ground offsets between the XD-1 ground and LC-1 system/analog out ground the XD-1's current would go the path of least resistance and could flow through the LC-1 and it's system ground. This can also cause ground offsets and noise on the analog outs.
Regards,
Klaus
10-12-05, 07:10 PM
#81
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I believe it would be a floating ground as AN2 on the Datalogit box isn't specifically a ground but another input. You had it correct already HYDOUKEN...
- White/Green/XD-1 Ground wire should all be tied together and connected to the AN2 on the datalogit
Thanks Klaus, Maybe they should put you in charge of updating the manual
.
- White/Green/XD-1 Ground wire should all be tied together and connected to the AN2 on the datalogit
Thanks Klaus, Maybe they should put you in charge of updating the manual
.
10-14-05, 06:28 AM
#83
Maybe you can help with connecting the analog output on the LM1 to the datalog it. Which wire goes were? Here is my thread.
https://www.rx7club.com/power-fc-forum-47/connecting-lm-1-datalogit-other-sensors-471501/
https://www.rx7club.com/power-fc-forum-47/connecting-lm-1-datalogit-other-sensors-471501/
10-14-05, 11:48 AM
#85
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Originally Posted by Matt Hey
- White/Green/XD-1 Ground wire should all be tied together and connected to the AN2 on the datalogit.
Regards,
Klaus
10-14-05, 01:38 PM
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ok, thankyou Matt and klatinn for the info....but still why there is two different versions (6 wire and 7 wire LC-1..). So one last time..
- Red goes to switched power
- Blue goes to a good ground
- White/Green/XD-1 Ground wire should all be tied together and connected to the AN2 on the datalogit as well as a ground wire too? (preferrably a ground that the ECU uses...like the two wires that are grounded on the ecu bracket; run a wire from there back to AN2>?)
- Yellow is used to simulate a NBO2
- Brown goes to AN1 (0v=7.35 & 5v=22.39)
- Black is used for calibration but not needed if the XD-1 guage is hooked up
....please tell me that I am finally right
- Red goes to switched power
- Blue goes to a good ground
- White/Green/XD-1 Ground wire should all be tied together and connected to the AN2 on the datalogit as well as a ground wire too? (preferrably a ground that the ECU uses...like the two wires that are grounded on the ecu bracket; run a wire from there back to AN2>?)
- Yellow is used to simulate a NBO2
- Brown goes to AN1 (0v=7.35 & 5v=22.39)
- Black is used for calibration but not needed if the XD-1 guage is hooked up
....please tell me that I am finally right
10-14-05, 02:41 PM
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Yes, you are finally right
The reason there are 6-wire and 7-wire LC-1's is that we found that on one datalogger on the market (used in racing) there's a relatively big cap directly over the differential inputs. The cap caused spikes on the AFR readings when a common ground (metallic) was used for system and analog out GND because it formed a high frequency short for the analog outs that coupled into the AFRs via the common ground wire and internal power of the LC-1. Rather than say just screw it, we made a design change so it works on others with the same design flaw. In addition we recommend for those to put a 470 Ohm resistor in line with the analog outs. We have not found another system with the same problem though.
Regards,
Klaus
The reason there are 6-wire and 7-wire LC-1's is that we found that on one datalogger on the market (used in racing) there's a relatively big cap directly over the differential inputs. The cap caused spikes on the AFR readings when a common ground (metallic) was used for system and analog out GND because it formed a high frequency short for the analog outs that coupled into the AFRs via the common ground wire and internal power of the LC-1. Rather than say just screw it, we made a design change so it works on others with the same design flaw. In addition we recommend for those to put a 470 Ohm resistor in line with the analog outs. We have not found another system with the same problem though.
Regards,
Klaus
10-15-05, 02:40 AM
#88
Klaus: are you familiar enough with the datalogit box to know if it is possible to solve the floating ground issue without wasting an extra channel to correct the voltage that the data-logging device sees from your LM1? (meaning that 2 channels are used instead of just 1 of the 4 inputs)
It sounds like the LC1 is capable of doing this if I am reading the thread correctly.
What would need to be done to subtract off the wandering voltage fluctuations that are prevalent in our electrical systems causing slightly off A/F readings without using the AN1 – AN2 feature? (auxiliary input 1 – auxiliary input 2)
Below is a screen shot of our auxiliary input setup screen. It allows us to set the LM1 up normally, set the datalogit to same parameters under AN1, and use the AN2 function to subtract off the fluctuating voltage (supposedly making the voltage read out more accurate and therefore air fuel readout more accurate)
If this is not descriptive enough, I will detail it more at your request. It is hard to tell exactly what you will need to know to help on this question, if it is doable at all.
It is just that some of us use all 4 of our inputs, and could use more if they were supplied, and half are used just fro WB.
It sounds like the LC1 is capable of doing this if I am reading the thread correctly.
What would need to be done to subtract off the wandering voltage fluctuations that are prevalent in our electrical systems causing slightly off A/F readings without using the AN1 – AN2 feature? (auxiliary input 1 – auxiliary input 2)
Below is a screen shot of our auxiliary input setup screen. It allows us to set the LM1 up normally, set the datalogit to same parameters under AN1, and use the AN2 function to subtract off the fluctuating voltage (supposedly making the voltage read out more accurate and therefore air fuel readout more accurate)
If this is not descriptive enough, I will detail it more at your request. It is hard to tell exactly what you will need to know to help on this question, if it is doable at all.
It is just that some of us use all 4 of our inputs, and could use more if they were supplied, and half are used just fro WB.
10-15-05, 06:06 PM
#89
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Hi,
There's very little that can be done regarding the analog noise on the LM-1 when using a single ended input like you want to do. The only real way would be to make your own differential amplifier. If you email me (Klaus at Innovate-tech.com) I can send you a schematic. Should not cost more than about 5$ worth of parts. But you will need an external 5V power supply (schematic for how to make that is in the LogWorks 2 Manual).
Regards,
Klaus
There's very little that can be done regarding the analog noise on the LM-1 when using a single ended input like you want to do. The only real way would be to make your own differential amplifier. If you email me (Klaus at Innovate-tech.com) I can send you a schematic. Should not cost more than about 5$ worth of parts. But you will need an external 5V power supply (schematic for how to make that is in the LogWorks 2 Manual).
Regards,
Klaus
10-17-05, 12:45 PM
#90
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- hey rotarypower101 I was curious as to what you are using the other Inputs for.....
- Klaus, what rotarypower101 is trying to accomplish is it possible with the LC-1. Also Matt or Klaus.....with me connecting a ground wire directly to AN2...will that affect anything...besides making a more accurate WB02 reading. Also I was concidering soldering all the wires (White/Green/XD-1 Ground/ground wire to ecu braket) together and then putting it into AN2...would this be a cleaner way of doing it....basically so one wire doesnt fall out of the AN2 by accident
- Klaus, what rotarypower101 is trying to accomplish is it possible with the LC-1. Also Matt or Klaus.....with me connecting a ground wire directly to AN2...will that affect anything...besides making a more accurate WB02 reading. Also I was concidering soldering all the wires (White/Green/XD-1 Ground/ground wire to ecu braket) together and then putting it into AN2...would this be a cleaner way of doing it....basically so one wire doesnt fall out of the AN2 by accident
10-17-05, 03:18 PM
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Hi,
The LC-1 was specifically designed to minimize ground offset from heater current. That's the advantage when designing for permanent installation.
What you want to do is connect the heater ground to a good ground, but not to the dataloggit ground. Connect the analog out gnd and system gnd to the datalogit ground and go from there. There should be none or very little constant ground offset, which can be easily compensated for by programming the LC-1.
Regard,
Klaus
The LC-1 was specifically designed to minimize ground offset from heater current. That's the advantage when designing for permanent installation.
What you want to do is connect the heater ground to a good ground, but not to the dataloggit ground. Connect the analog out gnd and system gnd to the datalogit ground and go from there. There should be none or very little constant ground offset, which can be easily compensated for by programming the LC-1.
Regard,
Klaus
10-17-05, 05:14 PM
#92
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So Klaus do you think i should stick with the original plan of
- Red goes to switched power
- Blue goes to a good ground
- White/Green/XD-1 Ground wire should all be tied together and connected to the AN2 on the datalogit as well as a ground wire too? (preferrably a ground that the ECU uses...like the two wires that are grounded on the ecu bracket; run a wire from there back to AN2>?)
- Yellow is used to simulate a NBO2
- Brown goes to AN1 (0v=7.35 & 5v=22.39)
- Black is used for calibration but not needed if the XD-1 guage is hooked up
-OR-
Sperate all the grounds except for the white/green connected to AN2
and Just connect the XD-1 ground to closet chassis and not run a ground wire to the AN2.....
The main reason for the two options is ....what are the affects if I run a soild ground wire to AN2 with the first setup that i have listed. Is the first setup just a more accurate reading? Sorry for all the questions....just wanna make sure I get it right cause it will be mounted in a location that is not very accessible once installed
- Red goes to switched power
- Blue goes to a good ground
- White/Green/XD-1 Ground wire should all be tied together and connected to the AN2 on the datalogit as well as a ground wire too? (preferrably a ground that the ECU uses...like the two wires that are grounded on the ecu bracket; run a wire from there back to AN2>?)
- Yellow is used to simulate a NBO2
- Brown goes to AN1 (0v=7.35 & 5v=22.39)
- Black is used for calibration but not needed if the XD-1 guage is hooked up
-OR-
Sperate all the grounds except for the white/green connected to AN2
and Just connect the XD-1 ground to closet chassis and not run a ground wire to the AN2.....
The main reason for the two options is ....what are the affects if I run a soild ground wire to AN2 with the first setup that i have listed. Is the first setup just a more accurate reading? Sorry for all the questions....just wanna make sure I get it right cause it will be mounted in a location that is not very accessible once installed
10-17-05, 07:23 PM
#93
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Hi,
It's really very simple. As I understand, the datalogit can run it's inputs either as single ended (for example AN1 referenced to ground), or double ended (AN1 referenced to AN2). If you use double ended operation, the LC-1 grounds still have to be connected to a real ground, not only an input. That's where the solid ground from AN2 to ground is needed. Double ended (differential) inputs are ALWAYS better than single ended with regards to noise rejection. That's why our LMA-3 has double ended (differential) inputs for each channel. A double ended input can be converted to a virtual single ended by connecting the negative side to ground. But a single ended input can only be converted by additional electronics.
Regards,
Klaus
It's really very simple. As I understand, the datalogit can run it's inputs either as single ended (for example AN1 referenced to ground), or double ended (AN1 referenced to AN2). If you use double ended operation, the LC-1 grounds still have to be connected to a real ground, not only an input. That's where the solid ground from AN2 to ground is needed. Double ended (differential) inputs are ALWAYS better than single ended with regards to noise rejection. That's why our LMA-3 has double ended (differential) inputs for each channel. A double ended input can be converted to a virtual single ended by connecting the negative side to ground. But a single ended input can only be converted by additional electronics.
Regards,
Klaus
10-18-05, 12:52 PM
#94
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I think I am making this more difficult than it really needs to be......so to keep it simple I will just stick with the first way that you told me Klaus which is:
- Red goes to switched power
- Blue goes to a good ground
- White/Green/XD-1 Ground wire should all be tied together and connected to the AN2 on the datalogit as well as a ground wire too? (preferrably a ground that the ECU uses...like the two wires that are grounded on the ecu bracket; run a wire from there back to AN2)
- Yellow is used to simulate a NBO2
- Brown goes to AN1 (0v=7.35 & 5v=22.39)
- Black is used for calibration but not needed if the XD-1 guage is hooked up
Mainly I just wanted to know what adverse affects would be when grounding out the AN2 connection to the Datalogit with the White/Green/XD-1 Ground wire. Is this method jsut a better way to keep analog noise down to a minimal?
- Red goes to switched power
- Blue goes to a good ground
- White/Green/XD-1 Ground wire should all be tied together and connected to the AN2 on the datalogit as well as a ground wire too? (preferrably a ground that the ECU uses...like the two wires that are grounded on the ecu bracket; run a wire from there back to AN2)
- Yellow is used to simulate a NBO2
- Brown goes to AN1 (0v=7.35 & 5v=22.39)
- Black is used for calibration but not needed if the XD-1 guage is hooked up
Mainly I just wanted to know what adverse affects would be when grounding out the AN2 connection to the Datalogit with the White/Green/XD-1 Ground wire. Is this method jsut a better way to keep analog noise down to a minimal?
10-18-05, 01:17 PM
#95
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The PFC has a serial output that provides power and ground for the Datalogit. Hooking up to the Datalogit ground is confusing because the ground goes back to the PFC and is then grounded at many places along the wiring harness.
10-18-05, 04:52 PM
#96
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Which way should I hook this thing up? At least I have it narrowed down to two different setups......just wanna know which way will provide a more accurate reading. I know Klaus suggest wiring a ground to the datalogit with white/green/xd-1 guage negative all tied together and inserted in AN2. Just wanna know why I cant just use white/green in AN2 and gound the XD-1 negative to a chassis ground and the system ground to a different chassis ground
10-18-05, 07:30 PM
#97
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Hi HYDOUKEN,
Very simply, AN2 is NOT a ground, but an input. The LC-1's System and analog out ground HAVE to be grounded somewhere. Because AN2 is not a ground, it's to the LC-1 just as if left open. It would probably work somewhat, because there's a safety system built into the LC-1 that prevents it from having too much offset between heater ground and system ground (allows +- 1Volt max). Without that, and System Gnd disconnected, the sensor would burn up in about 2 minutes.
The reason I also suggested to connect the XD-1 ground there is because there's also a ground path in the serial cable. If the XD-1 is on a radically different ground, the resulting current between the grounds can skew the readings.
Regards,
Klaus
Very simply, AN2 is NOT a ground, but an input. The LC-1's System and analog out ground HAVE to be grounded somewhere. Because AN2 is not a ground, it's to the LC-1 just as if left open. It would probably work somewhat, because there's a safety system built into the LC-1 that prevents it from having too much offset between heater ground and system ground (allows +- 1Volt max). Without that, and System Gnd disconnected, the sensor would burn up in about 2 minutes.
The reason I also suggested to connect the XD-1 ground there is because there's also a ground path in the serial cable. If the XD-1 is on a radically different ground, the resulting current between the grounds can skew the readings.
Regards,
Klaus
10-19-05, 11:33 AM
#98
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OK Klaus I figured last night how I was going to wire all this stuff together (being that the AN2 input is too small to fit all those wires I came up with something alittle bit different). I am going to to ground the white/green/xd-1 negative to the ecu bracket (so they all share the exact same ground point) then run a wire from this ground point into AN2....so that I only have one physical wire going into the AN2 input port. This will still work the same correct? Also do you have some kinda relay that will delay power to the LC-1 for a preset amount of time (15sec?) so that the exhaust system can get all the moisture out?
10-19-05, 01:56 PM
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Hi,
Your hookup now is perfect.
We don't have a time-delay relay. But if you power the LC-1 only when the car is running it should be ok. Some people have used the alternator warning light output to drive a relay. Because that's only at 12V when the engine is running.
Regards,
Klaus
Your hookup now is perfect.
We don't have a time-delay relay. But if you power the LC-1 only when the car is running it should be ok. Some people have used the alternator warning light output to drive a relay. Because that's only at 12V when the engine is running.
Regards,
Klaus
10-19-05, 05:07 PM
#100
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thanks Klaus I think i got the wiring down about 10 posts ago ...when you told me the first time. I am just a slow learner and also wanted a reason why everything needed to be hooked up the way it did. I mainly use a remote start feature for my car every morning and this causes the car to power on for a good 5 sec before actually cranking the car up. Thats the reason why I am looking for a time-delay relay....to counter the auto-start delay from powering the car to actually cranking it.
...when you told me the first time. I am just a slow learner and also wanted a reason why everything needed to be hooked up the way it did. I mainly use a remote start feature for my car every morning and this causes the car to power on for a good 5 sec before actually cranking the car up. Thats the reason why I am looking for a time-delay relay....to counter the auto-start delay from powering the car to actually cranking it.