I’m getting ready to buy gauges, no experience with them before. Am I correct in that the AFR needs to be attached to a welded bung on the DP, and the PFC, not just to the PFC? Water Temp into the radiator with a hose adapter and to PFC as well? Last is going to be boost…
Already have the PFC, just going single and adding gauges and tune.
Just trying to prep and buy all the parts before I start and have to stop because I’m missing something. Not a whole lot of threads on gauges and PFCs.

 

You'll need the sensor in place wherever you're trying to measure, but only going to the PFC if you want the ECU to read it. If the info is just for you to see, you only need it to go from the sensor to the gauge. The wideband (AFR) should be mounted in the downpipe, yes. For the coolant temp, I suggest putting it right behind the thermostat or where the stock sensor is. In the radiator would give you readings that rarely update. Right behind the thermostat is the hottest point.

Are you using an old school Datalogit or going with the new FC Tweak products? If you're on Datalogit, I would suggest wiring the AFR to the Datalogit as well, that will help you tune. But at this point I would go with FC Tweak if it's in your budget, it looks like they're making the Power FC as capable as newer ECUs. And if you use FC Tweak, you could probably wire the rest of the sensors to it as well. Otherwise, just wire those to the gauges.

You'll also need power and ground for each gauge, wired to 12V switched.

Which generation is your car?

 

It’s a 93 Touring. I just have Datalogit, I don’t have FC Tweak, was just reading up on PFC Master actually. But for now, all my money is going into single turbo and gauges. Running on one primary and a shutoff blown secondary. Just want to drive normal again right now. Started the gauge project before I knew my secondary was blown, that’s why they are a “priority”, finishing them up is all.
Eventually upgrade to Data or PFCMaster.

 

For the wideband, pay attention to the installation instructions. There is a distance and angle the sensor needs to be installed in. You don't need the water temp gauge at all. You would be better off doing oil temp or oil pressure. The commander shows water temp and THAT number is the one that matters. Whatever the ecu thinks the temp is, is what the temp is. Same applies to boost.

 

The only sensors that really matter are those which have a connection to the ECU, and on which the ECU can take corrective action upon. The only way to interface new sensors to the Apexi is through the PFC Master. In its original form, the PFC will only read the factory sensors, such as air, water temperature sensors, boost sensor, etc.... You cannot just add a gauge,say for fuel pressure or AFR, and hook it up to the PFC. With the PFC Master you will be able to add any extra sensors of your choice, and most importantly,make the PFC aware of their readings and take corrective actions in real time upon user set limits for every parameter. Once you fit the PFC Master, all the conventional gauges will just be a dead weight, since all parameters will be displayed on the PFC Master screen. The PFC will be then able to take the required corrective actions on them and the voice assistant will immediately alert you over your audio system whenever something goes wrong. So, my recommendation is to first get your existing problems fixed, and save the rest for something more useful and functional than conventional gauges. Below are two screenshots from the PFC Master.


PFC Master main dash screen

PFC Master I/O Extender channels

 

Do you have an Innovate wideband or another brand?

Are you swapping the vacuum lines also? That might be the cause of your boost issues.

I never heard anything about the angle of the sensor, but maybe I missed that part. That being said, I haven't had an external wideband for almost 10 years now. I do remember not having it too close to the outlet of the turbine housing, and I remember being able to use a heat sink to help with that, but I usually just put it where the O2 sensor was.

I would suggest at least linearizing the stock gauge, if not an aftermarket gauge. At least while he's using Datalogit instead of PFC Master. Once the safety parameters are in place it's not as big a deal. I personally like having a way to monitor things myself, but at least once there are safeties in place it's not really necessary.

This is a good point. OP might as well ditch the gauge project and go with this now rather than doing work just to undo it later or have obsolete things that added unneeded cost. Although the learning curve might be a bit bigger with your products than some simple gauges lol. Or is it fairly plug and play? I figure it wouldn't be too much extra work, if any, if you're just wiring all those gauges to the I/O expander. That might make it even simpler.

Although I moved away from PFC in 2015, I think it's really cool that you're making so many advancements to keep it alive and bring it into the future.

I was thinking it would be really cool if you could have an option for the PFC Master to fit in the double din, that way you don't have anything external hanging on the dash, but then you'd lose the functionality of the stereo, unless you could somehow add that in too. It's already wild that it's a media player as well already.

 

i'm not exactly sure, but i feel like Xavier thought about that.

 

“That being said, I haven't had an external wideband for almost 10 years now. I do remember not having it too close to the outlet of the turbine housing, and I remember being able to use a heat sink to help with that, but I usually just put it where the O2 sensor was.”

“I personally like having a way to monitor things myself, but at least once there are safeties in place it's not really necessary.”



So only the mid pipe has an O2 sensor, main DP is catless. Wouldn’t using the mid pipe be too far down the line for accurate readings if I used the O2 slot?

And yes, a lot of it is peace of mind, not necessarily for mapping. I had my AST blow up while driving, huge mess, so “seeing” my temps is more of a neurotic thing as much as a mapping thing.

 

18-24 inches from the from the turbo source and between 9 and 3 o clock is how the sensor is supposed to be mounted. So long as you're in those parameters it will work as intended. You can reference aem and/or innovate for this information. Its has to do with heat and condensation.

 

so the mid pipe is too far to use the O2 bung. The main DP is about 24 inches itself.

 

Not necessarily. If you're only using the WBO2 sensor to monitor your AFR/Lambda, then the mid-pipe location is perfectly fine.

OTOH, if you're using your WBO2 sensor with your ECU to make closed loop lambda (CLL) corrections/trims in AFR/Lambda to track to your target AFR/Lambda, the longer downstream distance needs to be accounted for in your ECU's CLL control loop tuning. That's because it takes a finite amount of time for the exhaust gasses to propagate from point A (the rotor's combustion chamber) to point B (where your WBO2 sensor is located), and that time varies based on load/engine speed (MAP/RPMs). Just HOW you account for that is entirely dependent on the ECU you chose to run. I'm not familiar with the Power FC, but on a Link G4+/G4X/G5 running CLL control, you need to set the control loop gains (PIDs) and the sample rate - the sample rate parameter is the one that deals with the propagation delays from combustion to sensor location. Generally speaking, you'll need to sample at a faster rate at high RPM/Load, and slower sample rate at low RPM/load (i.e., idle).

 

One has to keep in mind that most wideband O2 controllers are designed to maintain the WB O2 sensor element at a stable 650 degrees C, and will give accurate readings only as long as the sensor element is held at this temperature. If the exhaust temperature exceeds 650C, the temperature controller would no longer be able to do its job. For most piston engines the exhaust gas temperature at 18 inches from the turbo is most often lower than this, so most WB O2 user manuals will recommend this distance. However, rotary engines run higher exhaust temperatures, and unless the wideband controller comes with a software configurable temperature setting, the sensor location has to be chosen further downstream, towards the lower end of the downpipe. Any distance from the exhaust port to the O2 sensor obviously introduces a non-negligible time lag for the wideband O2 data which not all software and firmware compensate for. For example, for the Apexi Power FC, using the logged data shown on the old FC-Edit to street-tune an engine would always result in a bad tune especially at cruising and low boost, where the exhaust gas velocity is slowest. This usually results in driveability issues. When using FC-Tweak or the PFC Master on the PFC, this delay is totally compensated for, and will still result in a perfect tune anywhere on the map. Same applies to any other ECU. If the ECU does not compensate for the exhaust lag time, the tuned map and/or any closed loop corrections will be wrong.

 

Yep, that's the media player that I mentioned. But what I'm talking about is playing it through the speakers. I'm saying it would be cool to mount this in the double DIN and wire it into the audio system like you would any other stereo, that way you don't need a stereo to play the audio from this.

AM/FM would also be a plus, for me at least. But it really doesn't matter since I don't have a PFC anymore anyway lol.