mulder9927

so my rx-7 has just had a rebuild,
i used the work hardened apex seals from Atkins.
Cermet coating from jhb performance in Canada also got the high temperature Teflon o rings.
new oil rings new solid corner seals.
from pineapple i got the air pump removal pulley kit.
did the rats nest unneeded solenoid removal.
removed the egr and the acv.
brand new wiring harness from japan2la.

it has the stock ecu but a safc2 computer

i was able to through a few different mechanics get it to start and run but it makes absolutely no power and runs extremely rich you can see black particulates out of the exhaust and it reaks of unburnt fuel. sounds like there is a miss as well. i am stumped. i ordered a wide band to see how off my fuel map is but i still don't know what to do about the surge since i know there are no vacuum leaks. i did the rebuild myself but i triple checked all of my work and had it pressure tested, it holds pressure good and it also has decent compression for a rebuild.

If anyone has any hints or ideas it would be awesome. its now my daily driver since my other car died so i need it going asap.

thanks

gracer7-rx7

iTrader: (16)

Is this on an FD?

What happens w/o the SAFC?

What fuel system - pump, injector sizes etc?

Whats going on w/ tuning?

mulder9927

It is an fd.
don't know the injector sizes I. Took it to a shop to have them flow tested and instead of flow testing them they tore apart my sterio and charged me 170..

Don't know what happens without the safc I know the injectors are probly larger than stock so with he safc zeroed its waaay rich.

Not tuned yet as far as I know.

dgeesaman

iTrader: (7)

I would pull the injectors and send them out to be ultrasonically cleaned. First, injector flow can deteriorate over the years, but second letting them sit unused for an extended period of time can cause them to flow poorly. You'll also learn the exact flow rate of them. Look up witchunter performance, they are in Wa state.

After you have that you can put them back in to see how they run and deal with the ECU issues if there are any. I don't see how it would be productive or wise to chase the ECU until you are certain of the fuel system performance.

D Walker

iTrader: (1)

If your running pig rich on an FD the first thing to check is the MAP sensor. If it is plugged in and has the RIGHT vac line to it, then your AFC install is suspect. All SAFC installs are suspect, but on some idiots hook up the wrong wires or hook them up backwards. Either way, its bad.
If by some miracle of the Cosmo it is hooked up right, you need to check the setup of said SAFC. I used to have the setting for an FD around here somewhere, but that was a few years ago. I am certian someone will have a basic setup, but if not go through the setup process making sure your fuel correction is 0 everywhere, that it is set to "MAP" sensor and not a MAF sensor.

If, by some second miracle of the Cosmo, the AFC is setup properly AND wired correctly, go to Vegas, because you have just beaten all the odds!

If the Map sensor checks out, the SAFC is not jacked, and the car is still running rich you need to find either an actual mechanic to diagnos the issue OR learn to do it yourself. I would start with a fuel pressure test, compression test, spark output test (along with new plugs, crappy plugs do not run right, especially after they have been fouled), and then move along to the injectors etc.

Starting at the injectors might seem like the right thing to do, but honestly you need to understand that finding a fault with a car is a flowchart of if/then tests and doing them out of order gets you nowhere. If your "mechanic" doesnt understand this then he may not be the right guy for the job.

dgeesaman

iTrader: (7)

You can dance through flowcharts looking for stuff and spending some time on that is fine. But if the problem is injector related you won't find anything. At some point if your troubleshooting doesn't provide any smoking guns I'd stop and look at injectors.

If the guy doesn't know his injector size and they've been sitting around waiting during the rebuild, then refurbishing the injectors is not troubleshooting, it's preventive maintenance that was overlooked in the rebuild. I've had enough bad experiences with injectors that I'd get that out of the way first. If you're going to tune for power then confirming injector performance is an inexpensive insurance.

David

D Walker

iTrader: (1)

First, dont argue in the newbie forum. Properly diagnosing an issue with a car is a series of if/then statements, period. Start at one end of the string and move to the other. Starting in the middle at some random point usually only confuses everything. Period.

Second, he has no idea what his issue is. Tearing off the top of the motor to pull the injectors is likely to do more harm than good at this point, since your literally blindly firing a gun in the dark.
Lets look at what we know:

NEW ENGINE
SAFC
HAD TO GO TO SEVERAL MECHANICS TO GET RUNNING

hmmmmm
lets think

First guess, MAP sensor. The VERY FIRST THING to check on an FD that runs rich. Next is to check the TPS etc, in order. You can find directions in the FSM.
Next, we have an SAFC. Pieces of crap. Probably either installed wrong or setup wrong or both. Never assume an SAFC is right. Ever. Probably got a nice selection of Scotchlock taps going on too. Cannot tell you how many cars I have seen with SAFC issues. Now, WHAT does an SAFC do? Right, it intercepts the MAP signal. What happens when the MAP signal is screwed? Thats right, car runs overly rich. ECU also likely goes into limp mode, but I havent used a stock ecu in so long I cant remember. So SAFC= SMOKING GUN 70% of the time when a car equipped with one suddenly runs pig rich.

Why do we ASSume the car has larger than stock injectors? Because its running rich? WRONG ASSumption. FIRST we check that the car is mechanically and electronically sound- and at this point there are simply too many unknowns-THEN we can start thinking about goofy injectors. ARE YOU SERIOUSLY suggesting pulling the top of the motor down to remove the injectors BEFORE checking to make sure the MAP sensor, TPS etc are functioing correctly? Do you have any idea how STUPID that is?

This is why people get frustrated with these cars and why so many people waste countless dollars chasing thier problems with no end in sight, while hundreds of thousands of more tehcnologically effed up cars are run into the dirt and brought back to life daily in dealerships across the country. If I tore off the top end of my engine, pulled the injectors and went through all of that trouble to find out my MAP sensor wire at the ECU was not connected by the beer-swilling idiot that installed the SAFC I would be pissed.

dgeesaman

iTrader: (7)

We clearly differ on opinion.

I fought an issue very similar to this once on my FD and I learned a few things, namely, don't ignore the damn FD injectors. They get stuck and over time they do leak and go bad. Letting the fuel rail sit off the blocks for a month during a rebuild can be the straw that breaks the camel's back. Just like the FD wiring harness, when doing big work like a rebuild many experts will get the injectors cleaned and replace the wiring harness. (Among other things). Like I said, it's a good idea to do the injectors especially because it will tell you for sure what size they are.

The Mazda service manual includes no point in the troubleshooting flowcharts that covers injector problems. The fact that several mechanics looked at it and haven't found the problem yet also suggests that they went over the basics already. (That's no guarantee of course since good FD mechanics are rare as hen's teeth, but another matter).

To the OP, if you'd like to go through things step by step that's perfectly fine. MAP sensor is good to check right away. SAFC wiring is another good next step, if you know what to look for. (Personally I would not use an SAFC, since very few FD tuners use it and can help troubleshoot it).

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

Wow, lots of fun in this thread.

mulder9927, you mentioned you don't know the size of the injectors. Did you purchase new ones for your build or are they the ones which were on the car when you got it?


Start with the basics:

You are using the stock ECU, so use that to your advantage. Start by checking to see if you are storing any codes. If you have any codes, address those first depending on what they are (some codes won't cause the issues you are seeing). After that, go through the things which can mistakenly get swapped by accident during assembly:

* CAS sensor connectors
* Fuel and coolant thermosensor connectors
* Ignition harness connectors

Those are all connections which can easily get swapped and cause issues.

mulder9927

Well lets see. The safc was connectrd to my old wiring harness. I purchased a new wiring harness and copied the install from the old harness but instead of pawing arouns with clipons and scotchlocks I used solder and heat shrink. It was installed as it was before. I pulled the engine. The car ran with the. Safc2 before and now its zeroed but I went throuht the voltage test from the sensors and it does look like its connected ok and readin its inputs. The engine parts sat for about 2. Years while the rebuild was goong on. And they are the injectors I got with the car. I just got my wideband installed so I'm going to try and de flood it and get it running to get a reading of exactly how rich it is. I also had someon tell me it could be my trailing coil.

dgeesaman

iTrader: (7)

2 years of sitting still would compel me to get the injectors ultrasonically cleaned and flow balanced regardless of the driveability issues. My injector issues happened after 2 months of sitting. As a bonus you might fix your problem and you'll confirm your effective injector size.

mulder9927

lol so i sent my car to get the injectors cleaned and sized.. the mechanic put a door ding in my car, tore out my car alarm.. wrecked a ton of my harness and didn't even bother to touch the injectors.. LOL.. and i just purchased a powerfc instead..

Andre The Giant

iTrader: (21)

How much did you pay this time??

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

You need to find competent shops? And if the mechanic really did cause this damage, then your next move should be demanding a refund (presumably a work order was created with the labor requested, that was not followed, and there is documentation to support this). If they don't play ball, get an estimate to repair the damage and have a lawyer friend write a letter stating that your next step is small claims court for the damages plus court costs.

To PROPERLY get injectors serviced, bring the injectors themselves to an injection shop. Almost all communities have one. Check the Yellow Pages.

There is no point proceeding until the injector sizes are confirmed. You can also post pictures here and we may be able to identify them.

As mentioned, make sure the MAP sensor is connected properly.

I would suggest bypassing the S-AFC.

Just an FYI on those Cermet coatings: many people have had mixed results.

mulder9927

i took the s-afc off a few years ago when i got the powerfc. i actually just dropped it off with a mechanic in Idaho that is extremely competent and a friend of my family for years.. I had to move so i lost my shop. until i build my new house i am stuck only doing limited stuff so i am focusing on my FC.. all i need for it is a damn ecu and pressure sensor. which is impossible to find :-P. and the mechanic asshat told me that since i don't have before pictures i cant prove he dinged the door. so... F$#% Yakima everything. lol.