IF anyone can figure this out, ur my saviour...
12-21-08, 01:31 AM
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IF anyone can figure this out, ur my saviour...
Hey all,
Well before i did the vac change over, i had .12 bar of boost primary, transition as norm and then secondary came online and hit full boost set at .8 bar...
after the vac change over and 2 of 4 check valves replaced... and i also replaced the Charge control solenoid as everyone on fd owners has told me to do as it was my issue...
things have gotten worse.
primary is still hitting only 0.12 bar of boost, no transition, no secondary...
ive taken my avcr right off, running standard OEM mazda routing to the actuators removing my avcr hoses and solenoids... and let the PFC control the boost at the standard level it sets... without tune...
now im really at a loss, its been 3 months working on this trying to rectify it, and im at my tethers end, from all i can gather... somethings gone wrong....
the hoses to the pressure chamber and vac chamber are correct as per normal series 8 Rx7... the check valve under the triangle pressure tank infront of the UIM is arrow pointed towards the pressure chamber as everyone told me thats the way it runs....
but i am at a miss and im nearly about to just write this rx7 off. and walk away.
thing thats consistant even after changing the CCA solenoid is the fact the rod stays out regardless of situation, test, whateva....
this was before when i had transition and secondary online, and after...
primary still retains the same boost before and after also...
Well before i did the vac change over, i had .12 bar of boost primary, transition as norm and then secondary came online and hit full boost set at .8 bar...
after the vac change over and 2 of 4 check valves replaced... and i also replaced the Charge control solenoid as everyone on fd owners has told me to do as it was my issue...
things have gotten worse.
primary is still hitting only 0.12 bar of boost, no transition, no secondary...
ive taken my avcr right off, running standard OEM mazda routing to the actuators removing my avcr hoses and solenoids... and let the PFC control the boost at the standard level it sets... without tune...
now im really at a loss, its been 3 months working on this trying to rectify it, and im at my tethers end, from all i can gather... somethings gone wrong....
the hoses to the pressure chamber and vac chamber are correct as per normal series 8 Rx7... the check valve under the triangle pressure tank infront of the UIM is arrow pointed towards the pressure chamber as everyone told me thats the way it runs....
but i am at a miss and im nearly about to just write this rx7 off. and walk away.
thing thats consistant even after changing the CCA solenoid is the fact the rod stays out regardless of situation, test, whateva....
this was before when i had transition and secondary online, and after...
primary still retains the same boost before and after also...
12-21-08, 09:37 PM
#2
The good news is that you're getting full boost at least above 4500.
The bad news is that it sounds like something is venting your primary boost into the secondary until 4500. That means the charge control, most likely.
I recommend that you buy or borrow a Mityvac tool (preferably spend a little more for the one with the pressure/vacuum gauge). Now you can test every component in the turbo system, but start with your CCA. First apply vacuum to one side and see if it closes and stays closed indefinitely. If it fails, get another CCA (they're cheap, used).
Dave
The bad news is that it sounds like something is venting your primary boost into the secondary until 4500. That means the charge control, most likely.
I recommend that you buy or borrow a Mityvac tool (preferably spend a little more for the one with the pressure/vacuum gauge). Now you can test every component in the turbo system, but start with your CCA. First apply vacuum to one side and see if it closes and stays closed indefinitely. If it fails, get another CCA (they're cheap, used).
Dave
01-13-09, 12:22 AM
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mate i have a BRAND spanking new Charge control actuator solenoid sitting inside the box, ive also done the entire vacuum hose replacement and also done 2 of the 4 check valves, as i need to shave the barbs off the vitons i got to fit inside the box which atm i cbf'd to do, boost holds stable on the top end so i see no sense atm to urgently do it, as they seem to be fine....
i guess the only option is the 2 hoses that run to the Turbo Control actuator... or the actuator itself
2morrow im doing both... replacement with WORKING second hand actuator + brand new lines to it... if this dont work, im out of ideas....
unless its the Turbo Control actuator solenoid?
i guess the only option is the 2 hoses that run to the Turbo Control actuator... or the actuator itself
2morrow im doing both... replacement with WORKING second hand actuator + brand new lines to it... if this dont work, im out of ideas....
unless its the Turbo Control actuator solenoid?
01-16-09, 12:23 AM
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cca works as per it should...
but ill dwindle my thread down to an easy to read sorta thing...
Primary turbo hits 2 psi, then bleeds everything else till transition... to the secondary turbo which isn't even spooling so hence it goes straight out the exhaust... [massive node change in exhaust]....
Secondary hits boost and very aggressively to the set value of .8 of a bar no worries all day every day, aslong as u stay above transition, car runs like a dream, acceleration suffers and so does the power mind u cause primary still only produces 2psi....
now if anyone can tell me PRIMARY ONLY solutions to my issue... not secondary/both combined.. but PRIMARY only... id be much obliged...
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01-19-09, 12:12 AM
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never mind bud, im taking it to a rotary mechanic.. im pretty sure its the turbo control actuator or the solenoid associated with it... or the Precontrol/WG actuator solenoids...
its hte only part of hte car that isn't brand new from mazda japan in parts... besides teh twins unit i got off a mate...
its hte only part of hte car that isn't brand new from mazda japan in parts... besides teh twins unit i got off a mate...
01-22-09, 12:48 AM
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possibly ... but my actuator on KOKO tests is perfect... in out as per test... so the solenoids fine, but whether it actuator opens up during boost no idea.
01-22-09, 11:20 AM
#11
you should be able to see the actuator work from under the car. It kinda sounds like the c-clip has come off the rod and the rod came off the gate or the actuator it is stuck open...
that would give the pattern you describe...bleeding boost out the charge relief till the solenoid closes it at 4500rpm...then enough boost to open the charge control and bring on full boost
check the pre-control and make sure the rods not stuck or off also
rph
that would give the pattern you describe...bleeding boost out the charge relief till the solenoid closes it at 4500rpm...then enough boost to open the charge control and bring on full boost
check the pre-control and make sure the rods not stuck or off also
rph
01-22-09, 11:37 AM
#12
I think you should verify that your turbo control is working properly. If the actuator arm pops loose the TC door will swing open and cause problems for the primary to generate boost. Above 4500 the TC door is supposed to be open, which would allow full boost from 4500+
01-22-09, 04:25 PM
#13
I don’t express myself well, but that what I’m saying too.
The only paths for boost to vent out the charge relief valve (CRV) (which is normally open till 4500 rpm + boost pressure) would seem to be:
• The Charge control actuator CCA is holding the charge control butterfly open or partially open in which case primary boost would bleed out the CRV. When the rod is out, the butterfly is open. He said the rod pulls in at start up vacuum…unless the stop screw is adjusted incorrectly and it is holding the butterfly open when the rod pulls in…there shouldn’t be any boost escaping from the primary out the CCV
• The pre control gate is open or partially open allowing the secondary to spin, which would vent any boost it made out the CRV, at the same time robbing the primary of exhaust to build boost.
• The Boost Control gate is open or partially open in which case any boost the secondary made would be vented out the CRV, at the same time robbing the primary of exhaust to build boost.
I’m thinking if not charge control butterfly then it’s the boost control gate because at some point near 4500 rpm the controls are seeing 8# of boost and “pow” everything works as it should
The only paths for boost to vent out the charge relief valve (CRV) (which is normally open till 4500 rpm + boost pressure) would seem to be:
• The Charge control actuator CCA is holding the charge control butterfly open or partially open in which case primary boost would bleed out the CRV. When the rod is out, the butterfly is open. He said the rod pulls in at start up vacuum…unless the stop screw is adjusted incorrectly and it is holding the butterfly open when the rod pulls in…there shouldn’t be any boost escaping from the primary out the CCV
• The pre control gate is open or partially open allowing the secondary to spin, which would vent any boost it made out the CRV, at the same time robbing the primary of exhaust to build boost.
• The Boost Control gate is open or partially open in which case any boost the secondary made would be vented out the CRV, at the same time robbing the primary of exhaust to build boost.
I’m thinking if not charge control butterfly then it’s the boost control gate because at some point near 4500 rpm the controls are seeing 8# of boost and “pow” everything works as it should
01-24-09, 08:27 PM
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I don’t express myself well, but that what I’m saying too.
The only paths for boost to vent out the charge relief valve (CRV) (which is normally open till 4500 rpm + boost pressure) would seem to be:
• The Charge control actuator CCA is holding the charge control butterfly open or partially open in which case primary boost would bleed out the CRV. When the rod is out, the butterfly is open. He said the rod pulls in at start up vacuum…unless the stop screw is adjusted incorrectly and it is holding the butterfly open when the rod pulls in…there shouldn’t be any boost escaping from the primary out the CCV
• The pre control gate is open or partially open allowing the secondary to spin, which would vent any boost it made out the CRV, at the same time robbing the primary of exhaust to build boost.
• The Boost Control gate is open or partially open in which case any boost the secondary made would be vented out the CRV, at the same time robbing the primary of exhaust to build boost.
I’m thinking if not charge control butterfly then it’s the boost control gate because at some point near 4500 rpm the controls are seeing 8# of boost and “pow” everything works as it should
The only paths for boost to vent out the charge relief valve (CRV) (which is normally open till 4500 rpm + boost pressure) would seem to be:
• The Charge control actuator CCA is holding the charge control butterfly open or partially open in which case primary boost would bleed out the CRV. When the rod is out, the butterfly is open. He said the rod pulls in at start up vacuum…unless the stop screw is adjusted incorrectly and it is holding the butterfly open when the rod pulls in…there shouldn’t be any boost escaping from the primary out the CCV
• The pre control gate is open or partially open allowing the secondary to spin, which would vent any boost it made out the CRV, at the same time robbing the primary of exhaust to build boost.
• The Boost Control gate is open or partially open in which case any boost the secondary made would be vented out the CRV, at the same time robbing the primary of exhaust to build boost.
I’m thinking if not charge control butterfly then it’s the boost control gate because at some point near 4500 rpm the controls are seeing 8# of boost and “pow” everything works as it should
I would need to check the Turbo Control actuator rod... and the Pre control rod... correct?
with the TCA rod... how do i know if its open or closed.. as i cant get under my car unless i get it on ramps or a hoist to test...
im really at an end with this issue and about to sell the car all together and go back to a piston [god forbid knowing i love these things]
01-25-09, 08:04 PM
#15
You’ll need to jack the car up on the left side.
Set a jack stand.
From under the car you should see the Turbo control rod sticking out from under the heat shield that covers the controller. Make sure the rod is connected to the gate arm…there should be a c-clip holding it on. If it’s not connected, put it back on with a new c-clip. If it is connected the rod should be all the way out of the controller…push it in and see if it snaps all the way back out. It shouldn’t take to much effort to push it in.
Never mind about the pre-controller at this time.
Set the car back on the floor.
Tighten all the worm clamps on the turbo hoses. If the 25mm hoses are hard and loose put on worm clamps for now.
Pull the two 25mm from the air cleaner so you can tell if boost is venting out either valve. ( the blow off valve BOV is the one closest to the air cleaner, the charge control valve CCV is closest to the engine.)
Pull the vac line off the CCV and make sure you hear it snap close. Put the line back on.
Start the car and let it come up to temp. (secondary throttle butterflies will not open until engine is up to operating temp.) if you get venting from the BOV or a little from the CCV till its warmed up…that ok.
After it’s warmed up there should be no boost escaping from either valve when you rev the engine…only when you close the throttle.
Now rev the engine and see where the whistling is coming from.
Check all the turbo hoses…are any leaking? are any split? Is the air intake to the primary turbo collapsing when you rev it?
Is it whistling from the charge control valve hose? If so make sure the charge control actuator is pulled all the in…move the arm in by hand or use a mini-vac to pull in… is there a change in tone…there should be none of the fat part of the rod showing when it is in all the way…and the rod should stay all the in till the secondary comes on
Is it from the BOV ?
If the whistling isn’t coming from any of the hoses …. does it sound like it coming from the turbo area or out the exhaust?
When you rev the engine can you see the per-control or wastegate actuators pull in.
Let us know.
rph
Set a jack stand.
From under the car you should see the Turbo control rod sticking out from under the heat shield that covers the controller. Make sure the rod is connected to the gate arm…there should be a c-clip holding it on. If it’s not connected, put it back on with a new c-clip. If it is connected the rod should be all the way out of the controller…push it in and see if it snaps all the way back out. It shouldn’t take to much effort to push it in.
Never mind about the pre-controller at this time.
Set the car back on the floor.
Tighten all the worm clamps on the turbo hoses. If the 25mm hoses are hard and loose put on worm clamps for now.
Pull the two 25mm from the air cleaner so you can tell if boost is venting out either valve. ( the blow off valve BOV is the one closest to the air cleaner, the charge control valve CCV is closest to the engine.)
Pull the vac line off the CCV and make sure you hear it snap close. Put the line back on.
Start the car and let it come up to temp. (secondary throttle butterflies will not open until engine is up to operating temp.) if you get venting from the BOV or a little from the CCV till its warmed up…that ok.
After it’s warmed up there should be no boost escaping from either valve when you rev the engine…only when you close the throttle.
Now rev the engine and see where the whistling is coming from.
Check all the turbo hoses…are any leaking? are any split? Is the air intake to the primary turbo collapsing when you rev it?
Is it whistling from the charge control valve hose? If so make sure the charge control actuator is pulled all the in…move the arm in by hand or use a mini-vac to pull in… is there a change in tone…there should be none of the fat part of the rod showing when it is in all the way…and the rod should stay all the in till the secondary comes on
Is it from the BOV ?
If the whistling isn’t coming from any of the hoses …. does it sound like it coming from the turbo area or out the exhaust?
When you rev the engine can you see the per-control or wastegate actuators pull in.
Let us know.
rph
01-26-09, 07:48 PM
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You’ll need to jack the car up on the left side.
Set a jack stand.
From under the car you should see the Turbo control rod sticking out from under the heat shield that covers the controller. Make sure the rod is connected to the gate arm…there should be a c-clip holding it on. If it’s not connected, put it back on with a new c-clip. If it is connected the rod should be all the way out of the controller…push it in and see if it snaps all the way back out. It shouldn’t take to much effort to push it in.
Never mind about the pre-controller at this time.
Set the car back on the floor.
Tighten all the worm clamps on the turbo hoses. If the 25mm hoses are hard and loose put on worm clamps for now.
Pull the two 25mm from the air cleaner so you can tell if boost is venting out either valve. ( the blow off valve BOV is the one closest to the air cleaner, the charge control valve CCV is closest to the engine.)
Pull the vac line off the CCV and make sure you hear it snap close. Put the line back on.
Start the car and let it come up to temp. (secondary throttle butterflies will not open until engine is up to operating temp.) if you get venting from the BOV or a little from the CCV till its warmed up…that ok.
After it’s warmed up there should be no boost escaping from either valve when you rev the engine…only when you close the throttle.
Now rev the engine and see where the whistling is coming from.
Check all the turbo hoses…are any leaking? are any split? Is the air intake to the primary turbo collapsing when you rev it?
Is it whistling from the charge control valve hose? If so make sure the charge control actuator is pulled all the in…move the arm in by hand or use a mini-vac to pull in… is there a change in tone…there should be none of the fat part of the rod showing when it is in all the way…and the rod should stay all the in till the secondary comes on
Is it from the BOV ?
If the whistling isn’t coming from any of the hoses …. does it sound like it coming from the turbo area or out the exhaust?
When you rev the engine can you see the per-control or wastegate actuators pull in.
Let us know.
rph
Set a jack stand.
From under the car you should see the Turbo control rod sticking out from under the heat shield that covers the controller. Make sure the rod is connected to the gate arm…there should be a c-clip holding it on. If it’s not connected, put it back on with a new c-clip. If it is connected the rod should be all the way out of the controller…push it in and see if it snaps all the way back out. It shouldn’t take to much effort to push it in.
Never mind about the pre-controller at this time.
Set the car back on the floor.
Tighten all the worm clamps on the turbo hoses. If the 25mm hoses are hard and loose put on worm clamps for now.
Pull the two 25mm from the air cleaner so you can tell if boost is venting out either valve. ( the blow off valve BOV is the one closest to the air cleaner, the charge control valve CCV is closest to the engine.)
Pull the vac line off the CCV and make sure you hear it snap close. Put the line back on.
Start the car and let it come up to temp. (secondary throttle butterflies will not open until engine is up to operating temp.) if you get venting from the BOV or a little from the CCV till its warmed up…that ok.
After it’s warmed up there should be no boost escaping from either valve when you rev the engine…only when you close the throttle.
Now rev the engine and see where the whistling is coming from.
Check all the turbo hoses…are any leaking? are any split? Is the air intake to the primary turbo collapsing when you rev it?
Is it whistling from the charge control valve hose? If so make sure the charge control actuator is pulled all the in…move the arm in by hand or use a mini-vac to pull in… is there a change in tone…there should be none of the fat part of the rod showing when it is in all the way…and the rod should stay all the in till the secondary comes on
Is it from the BOV ?
If the whistling isn’t coming from any of the hoses …. does it sound like it coming from the turbo area or out the exhaust?
When you rev the engine can you see the per-control or wastegate actuators pull in.
Let us know.
rph
tested the vacuum side of things , it works as per norm...
i got a mate to watch the logical switching of on/off of the Turbo control and the CCA. and as per mazda's logical pathing it is correct...
I have an aftermarket intake pod system with all hard pipework... new silicone hose + new clamps...
I have no BOV... removed the standard BOV completely as its just a piece of junk and its a route for failure eventually...
Whistling is coming from Primary air intake pod ONLY....
and its only when on boost
entire engine bay vac system has been replaced from top to bottom with new hoses... bar the 2 that are attached to the TC [which when i put this second hand one on i know that works that came off my mates rx7... it has 2 new silicone hoses attached that i put on]...
now im pretty sure it has to be either TC rod or Pre spool rod...
2morrow ill be making sure the pre spool actuator and solenoid arent an issue by bypassing and joining up the hose from the hard line straight to the turbo... so there is no actuator/solenoid in the loop... so if it still happens, i know its mechanical... as that is pretty much the only reason this **** could happen, aside the 2 solenoids that are bolted to the outside front of the UIM, that might be causing the issue [1 will be out of the loop in a test, the other is the waste gate, which ill need to check somehow]
good idea first?
if so, is there anywhere mazda specifications of setting correct rod lengths, with verification of the page where it says it... or anything along those lines, not the whole just set the pin half way exposed inside the hole of the rod end... id rather have 100% factual information given to me so i dont have to do that crap again.
01-26-09, 11:15 PM
#17
Feel along the lines from the primary turbo to the pre-control and wastegate and make sure the pills in the lines didn’t come loose, if boost is blowing around the pills it could cause them to open prematurely
I know you’ve checked it …but make sure the stop screw isn’t holding the CCA open a bit
rph
I know you’ve checked it …but make sure the stop screw isn’t holding the CCA open a bit
rph
01-27-09, 05:15 AM
#18
Whistling is coming from Primary air intake pod ONLY....
and its only when on boost
and its only when on boost
now im pretty sure it has to be either TC rod or Pre spool rod...
2morrow ill be making sure the pre spool actuator and solenoid arent an issue by bypassing and joining up the hose from the hard line straight to the turbo... so there is no actuator/solenoid in the loop... so if it still happens, i know its mechanical... as that is pretty much the only reason this **** could happen, aside the 2 solenoids that are bolted to the outside front of the UIM, that might be causing the issue [1 will be out of the loop in a test, the other is the waste gate, which ill need to check somehow]
2morrow ill be making sure the pre spool actuator and solenoid arent an issue by bypassing and joining up the hose from the hard line straight to the turbo... so there is no actuator/solenoid in the loop... so if it still happens, i know its mechanical... as that is pretty much the only reason this **** could happen, aside the 2 solenoids that are bolted to the outside front of the UIM, that might be causing the issue [1 will be out of the loop in a test, the other is the waste gate, which ill need to check somehow]
If you want to test either actuator, you can cap off the line from the actuator to the hard pipe or loop it back to the compressor. Since there is nowhere on the compressor to loop back, I would cap off.
good idea first?
if so, is there anywhere mazda specifications of setting correct rod lengths, with verification of the page where it says it... or anything along those lines, not the whole just set the pin half way exposed inside the hole of the rod end... id rather have 100% factual information given to me so i dont have to do that crap again.
if so, is there anywhere mazda specifications of setting correct rod lengths, with verification of the page where it says it... or anything along those lines, not the whole just set the pin half way exposed inside the hole of the rod end... id rather have 100% factual information given to me so i dont have to do that crap again.
01-28-09, 12:50 PM
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Feel along the lines from the primary turbo to the pre-control and wastegate and make sure the pills in the lines didn’t come loose, if boost is blowing around the pills it could cause them to open prematurely
I know you’ve checked it …but make sure the stop screw isn’t holding the CCA open a bit
rph
I know you’ve checked it …but make sure the stop screw isn’t holding the CCA open a bit
rph
01-28-09, 12:55 PM
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That's the first time I've heard of the stock BOV being a failure point. It might be plastic but it works. If you don't have any BOV, where does boost go when you close the throttle?
The CRV vents prespool to the air intake - could that be what you're hearing?
The wastegate and precontrol are the same basic thing. The wastegate controls boost above 4500, the precontrol controls boost below 4500. You MUST have at least the actuator in the circuit or else the car will operate with no boost control and possibly blow the motor on overboost.
If you want to test either actuator, you can cap off the line from the actuator to the hard pipe or loop it back to the compressor. Since there is nowhere on the compressor to loop back, I would cap off.
If it's not in the FSM, Mazda didn't publish it. The bottom line with any actuator is that in the off position, the door has just enough tension to stay shut. Half of a pin, 1/16" of an inch, etc are just ways to assess that.
The CRV vents prespool to the air intake - could that be what you're hearing?
The wastegate and precontrol are the same basic thing. The wastegate controls boost above 4500, the precontrol controls boost below 4500. You MUST have at least the actuator in the circuit or else the car will operate with no boost control and possibly blow the motor on overboost.
If you want to test either actuator, you can cap off the line from the actuator to the hard pipe or loop it back to the compressor. Since there is nowhere on the compressor to loop back, I would cap off.
If it's not in the FSM, Mazda didn't publish it. The bottom line with any actuator is that in the off position, the door has just enough tension to stay shut. Half of a pin, 1/16" of an inch, etc are just ways to assess that.
Nah, the CRV with my plazmaman kit all vents to the 1 pipe ... secondary.... the primary, only has the 2 hoses coming from the hard lines to the STOCK 45 round bend straight off the housings of the turbo's.... and then its just a metal pipe + air pod....
the whistling is coming from the primary... so that tells me its nothing to do with CRV, CCA, or anything, and more likely to do with pre spool rod length needing adjustment as i swapped these turbo's over and forgot to check the actuator rod lengths before throwing it all back together at 2am....
and btw, if u route the 2 hoses together that come off the pre spool actuator... but still retain the power fc boost control setup... there is no issue with spiking/over boost etc etc, as the pre spool actuator only presets a minimum boost pressure before the actuator is of use anyway, and seeing as tho i dont even get 7 psi [which is the actuator boost pressure to actually have the actuator WORK mechanically] its out of the equasion anyway.... which removes the solenoid AND actuator out of the path of tested and non tested items to do with the boost system that could be causing a problem, leaving only the Turbo Control actuator rod, its solenoid, and the Pre spool rod length... as the only causes...
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