Simple gain suggestions for n/a owners-
01-18-08, 10:15 AM
#101
Bongolio
Update. The customer will be dynoing February 2nd(depending on weather). The customer was suppose to dyno this weekend, however due to the shity weather ohio is about to take, he cancelled. We will have the results and vid shortly after the dyno.
I am eagerly awaiting this day.
Jackson
I am eagerly awaiting this day.
Jackson
Your going to do a base stock 6 port dyno run...Then remove the clutch fan ONLY and rerun the dyno.
No trick's no gimmic's right?
Not trying to yank your chain or anything just getting on the same page as you.
Peace !
01-18-08, 11:30 AM
#102
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First off I am very calm.
Second, I don't know what people want to hear or not hear. Someone does some basic upgrade before and after dyno testing. Granted there could be some other variables we are not aware of. But he has posted what he found.
My main comment is to people who just make comments that are not relevant in any way. Such as the stuff nBOOSTe has made.
nBOOSTe, I have been into RX7's for many, many years. I don't understand what your point or relevance to this thread is. If you know all of this great. I pretty much know it also. But do you actually think just because you know something that someone else would not be interested. I don't quite understand how someone comes to a forum like this with your outlook.
This thread is about what one person found using his own dyno. Not about what is on your sisters crayon box or what fourteen year olds know in PR. Who cares. But, someone that say is in their teens and just bought their first N/A RX7. They might be really interested in some real world dyno numbers with some simple upgrades. Peace and have a great day all!!
Second, I don't know what people want to hear or not hear. Someone does some basic upgrade before and after dyno testing. Granted there could be some other variables we are not aware of. But he has posted what he found.
My main comment is to people who just make comments that are not relevant in any way. Such as the stuff nBOOSTe has made.
nBOOSTe, I have been into RX7's for many, many years. I don't understand what your point or relevance to this thread is. If you know all of this great. I pretty much know it also. But do you actually think just because you know something that someone else would not be interested. I don't quite understand how someone comes to a forum like this with your outlook.
This thread is about what one person found using his own dyno. Not about what is on your sisters crayon box or what fourteen year olds know in PR. Who cares. But, someone that say is in their teens and just bought their first N/A RX7. They might be really interested in some real world dyno numbers with some simple upgrades. Peace and have a great day all!!
01-18-08, 06:59 PM
#105
Yea, plus:
Past President
Two possible future presidents
Worlds largest retail corporation
Worlds largest meat producer
Largest investment firm off of Wall Street
One of the top 3 rated driving roads in the nation
One of the Premier Horse Racing tracks in the nation
One of the few diamond mines in the world
I know PR has amazing rotary community and..........
Past President
Two possible future presidents
Worlds largest retail corporation
Worlds largest meat producer
Largest investment firm off of Wall Street
One of the top 3 rated driving roads in the nation
One of the Premier Horse Racing tracks in the nation
One of the few diamond mines in the world
I know PR has amazing rotary community and..........
01-19-08, 05:32 AM
#106
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
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Yea, plus:
Past President
Two possible future presidents
Worlds largest retail corporation
Worlds largest meat producer
Largest investment firm off of Wall Street
One of the top 3 rated driving roads in the nation
One of the Premier Horse Racing tracks in the nation
One of the few diamond mines in the world
I know PR has amazing rotary community and..........
Past President
Two possible future presidents
Worlds largest retail corporation
Worlds largest meat producer
Largest investment firm off of Wall Street
One of the top 3 rated driving roads in the nation
One of the Premier Horse Racing tracks in the nation
One of the few diamond mines in the world
I know PR has amazing rotary community and..........
01-31-08, 10:20 PM
#110
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Wow a lot of you guys are missing the point...
Even if the electric fan took the same amount of power to run as the clutch fan, the point is that you can have greater control over the E-fan and because of this is a better alternative because it only draws power when needed (at idle for the most part). The clutch fan on the other hand, *always* draws power because you have the mass of all the related components permanently coupled to the engine, and a huge load when the clutch is engaged. Furthermore, the clutch in the clutch fan is way slower to react then a thermoswitch (or other means of control) in the circuit of the e-fan. So that means when you accelerate off-idle, you have the drag of the fully-engaged clutch fan robbing you of power up until the point where the viscous fluid in the clutch cools enough to disengage the clutch (slooooooow). The electric fan, on the other hand, can be set up in a variety of different ways to switch off at a given vehicle speed, throttle position, MAP/engine load, etc. Regardless of the fact that the electric fan will not stay engaged nearly as long as the clutch fan, because of... ACTUAL FAN EFFICIENCY! (Ironic how no one mentioned this yet, wow...)
The fan shroud on the RX-7s has a considerably larger diameter then the fan itself, which is to allow for movement of the engine relative to the fixed fan shroud. There would be a considerable amount of air flow loss through this area, as it is much easier for air to be pulled in through that open area then the more restrictive radiator core (assuming the car is stationary with no airflow through the rad). To account for this loss, Mazda will have had to increase the size of the fan to move more air. This larger fan is also heavier in mass, and because of the increased diameter, also has a greater moment of inertia. The electric fan on the other hand has a much better shroud design and far less blade tip clearance and because of this, makes better use of the power it consumes from the alternator/engine. If this makes it easier to understand, the electric fan when running, will use less horsepower from the engine per cubic foot of air moved through the engine then will the clutch fan. In addition, given that it's probably moves significantly more air, it will be engaged a lot less then the lower efficiency clutch fan.
Even if the electric fan took the same amount of power to run as the clutch fan, the point is that you can have greater control over the E-fan and because of this is a better alternative because it only draws power when needed (at idle for the most part). The clutch fan on the other hand, *always* draws power because you have the mass of all the related components permanently coupled to the engine, and a huge load when the clutch is engaged. Furthermore, the clutch in the clutch fan is way slower to react then a thermoswitch (or other means of control) in the circuit of the e-fan. So that means when you accelerate off-idle, you have the drag of the fully-engaged clutch fan robbing you of power up until the point where the viscous fluid in the clutch cools enough to disengage the clutch (slooooooow). The electric fan, on the other hand, can be set up in a variety of different ways to switch off at a given vehicle speed, throttle position, MAP/engine load, etc. Regardless of the fact that the electric fan will not stay engaged nearly as long as the clutch fan, because of... ACTUAL FAN EFFICIENCY! (Ironic how no one mentioned this yet, wow...)
The fan shroud on the RX-7s has a considerably larger diameter then the fan itself, which is to allow for movement of the engine relative to the fixed fan shroud. There would be a considerable amount of air flow loss through this area, as it is much easier for air to be pulled in through that open area then the more restrictive radiator core (assuming the car is stationary with no airflow through the rad). To account for this loss, Mazda will have had to increase the size of the fan to move more air. This larger fan is also heavier in mass, and because of the increased diameter, also has a greater moment of inertia. The electric fan on the other hand has a much better shroud design and far less blade tip clearance and because of this, makes better use of the power it consumes from the alternator/engine. If this makes it easier to understand, the electric fan when running, will use less horsepower from the engine per cubic foot of air moved through the engine then will the clutch fan. In addition, given that it's probably moves significantly more air, it will be engaged a lot less then the lower efficiency clutch fan.
01-31-08, 11:00 PM
#111
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Originally Posted by flipstar
You cannot make energy from nothing. Your engine spins your clutch fan. For arguments sake, it uses 10 watts. Your engine spins your alternator. IT ALSO USES 10 WATTS for the same amount of cooling. ----> AKA: You CAN NOT gain peak hp with an E-FAN! (unless your car has no alternator charging your battery...)
a) the plastic fan itself has a lower mass because it is lacking a heavy viscously clutched hub, and has lighter more aerodynamic blades. This means the electric motor works less to turn it then does the rotary engine to turn the clutch fan. In other words, the power input or energy required to drive the electric motor is lower then the power input or energy required to drive the water pump pulley that drives the clutch fan.
b) doesn't have a loss of airflow through it's shroud so therefore has to work less to move an equivalent amount of air through the radiator
c) fights terrorism.
Originally Posted by flipstar
I say peak hp because what happens inbetween is another story. The resistance reduction on the engine from taking off the clutch fan will actually cause it to accelerate faster, but faster acceleration does not mean HP increase.
FORCE = MASS X ACCELERATION
Your engine produces a force equal to X, REGARDLESS of your fan. Take off the clutch fan and you reduce the MASS. To keep the equation in balance, aka when FORCE is still equal to X, ACCELERATION must increase.
So there it is.
FORCE = MASS X ACCELERATION
Your engine produces a force equal to X, REGARDLESS of your fan. Take off the clutch fan and you reduce the MASS. To keep the equation in balance, aka when FORCE is still equal to X, ACCELERATION must increase.
So there it is.
I'm too f'king tired to type any more... I hope I made some sense...
02-01-08, 10:17 AM
#112
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doesn't have a loss of airflow through it's shroud so therefore has to work less to move an equivalent amount of air through the radiator
BTW, I havn't seen an e-fan run at less than 10amps yet. Startup will be well over 30amps.
02-02-08, 08:48 AM
#113
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A shroud turns out to be necessary for a mechanical fan because you can't get the fan blades close enough to the radiator to keep the engine cool in that manner. With the engine rocking, driveline shock being transmitted up and down the whole drivetrain assembly, it's just too dicey to have the mechanical fan 1/4" from the radiator fin surfaces where it will be efficient.
So it's mounted to the engine and now the fan blades are a good 8" away from the radiator surface and efficiencies are severely compromised. Solution? Fan shroud. Now the fan isn't simply whipping air around but part of a system that lets that fan draw air from the whole radiator surface much more efficiently.
When you have an electric fan that is mounted right on the radiator, a shroud is normally NOT necessary. HPP just finished an exhaustive story done over three issues with a Pontiac wagon owned by Jim Hand that runs mid-11's in Texas in Summer. Tell me that car doesn't want to run hot, as in 220* Fahrenheit, if you gave it a chance. Keeping our big mills cool is always problematic and HPP and Jim decided to see what would happen if they went whole hog and ran an aluminum radiator, 16" SPAL electric fan and a Meziere street/strip HD electric water pump. Jim already had his stock system optimized, so he saw 194 - 210*F ranges at the dragstrip and in around-the-town driving. In the course of tuning up the new cooling system on Texas streets, they found that the PRC aluminum radiator's flat panel "shroud" around the electric fan was negating any benefits at speed that they were expecting from the new set-up. They contacted the manufacturer who suggested cut-outs and their die-cut fiber flaps that would "open" at speed so that more of the radiator would flow air. They saw the drop in temps they were hoping for, so they decided to go one step further and dispense with the shroud altogether. They saw a BIG drop in temperatures across the board and recommended to NOT use a shroud at all with an electric fan on an aluminum radiator as a result.
The kicker was this month's issue where they did the same kind of dyno runs that are supposed to happen today with Defined Autoworks....they were shooting for a 5 - 10 rwhp gain or at least expecting that much....they gained 19 rwhp just from going from a stock mechanical clutch fan with 7 blades to the electric fan/electric water pump set-up...
Can't wait to see what happens today on the Defined Autoworks chassis dyno...
...the Truth will overcome...
So it's mounted to the engine and now the fan blades are a good 8" away from the radiator surface and efficiencies are severely compromised. Solution? Fan shroud. Now the fan isn't simply whipping air around but part of a system that lets that fan draw air from the whole radiator surface much more efficiently.
When you have an electric fan that is mounted right on the radiator, a shroud is normally NOT necessary. HPP just finished an exhaustive story done over three issues with a Pontiac wagon owned by Jim Hand that runs mid-11's in Texas in Summer. Tell me that car doesn't want to run hot, as in 220* Fahrenheit, if you gave it a chance. Keeping our big mills cool is always problematic and HPP and Jim decided to see what would happen if they went whole hog and ran an aluminum radiator, 16" SPAL electric fan and a Meziere street/strip HD electric water pump. Jim already had his stock system optimized, so he saw 194 - 210*F ranges at the dragstrip and in around-the-town driving. In the course of tuning up the new cooling system on Texas streets, they found that the PRC aluminum radiator's flat panel "shroud" around the electric fan was negating any benefits at speed that they were expecting from the new set-up. They contacted the manufacturer who suggested cut-outs and their die-cut fiber flaps that would "open" at speed so that more of the radiator would flow air. They saw the drop in temps they were hoping for, so they decided to go one step further and dispense with the shroud altogether. They saw a BIG drop in temperatures across the board and recommended to NOT use a shroud at all with an electric fan on an aluminum radiator as a result.
The kicker was this month's issue where they did the same kind of dyno runs that are supposed to happen today with Defined Autoworks....they were shooting for a 5 - 10 rwhp gain or at least expecting that much....they gained 19 rwhp just from going from a stock mechanical clutch fan with 7 blades to the electric fan/electric water pump set-up...
Can't wait to see what happens today on the Defined Autoworks chassis dyno...
...the Truth will overcome...
02-02-08, 03:24 PM
#114
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They should do five tests:
1 Disengaged clutch fan
2) Engaged clutch fan
3) Electric fan off
4) Electric fan on
This would be the best because it would produce numbers for each situtation.
1 Disengaged clutch fan
2) Engaged clutch fan
3) Electric fan off
4) Electric fan on
This would be the best because it would produce numbers for each situtation.
02-02-08, 06:16 PM
#115
Bongolio
A shroud turns out to be necessary for a mechanical fan because you can't get the fan blades close enough to the radiator to keep the engine cool in that manner. With the engine rocking, driveline shock being transmitted up and down the whole drivetrain assembly, it's just too dicey to have the mechanical fan 1/4" from the radiator fin surfaces where it will be efficient.
So it's mounted to the engine and now the fan blades are a good 8" away from the radiator surface and efficiencies are severely compromised. Solution? Fan shroud. Now the fan isn't simply whipping air around but part of a system that lets that fan draw air from the whole radiator surface much more efficiently.
When you have an electric fan that is mounted right on the radiator, a shroud is normally NOT necessary. HPP just finished an exhaustive story done over three issues with a Pontiac wagon owned by Jim Hand that runs mid-11's in Texas in Summer. Tell me that car doesn't want to run hot, as in 220* Fahrenheit, if you gave it a chance. Keeping our big mills cool is always problematic and HPP and Jim decided to see what would happen if they went whole hog and ran an aluminum radiator, 16" SPAL electric fan and a Meziere street/strip HD electric water pump. Jim already had his stock system optimized, so he saw 194 - 210*F ranges at the dragstrip and in around-the-town driving. In the course of tuning up the new cooling system on Texas streets, they found that the PRC aluminum radiator's flat panel "shroud" around the electric fan was negating any benefits at speed that they were expecting from the new set-up. They contacted the manufacturer who suggested cut-outs and their die-cut fiber flaps that would "open" at speed so that more of the radiator would flow air. They saw the drop in temps they were hoping for, so they decided to go one step further and dispense with the shroud altogether. They saw a BIG drop in temperatures across the board and recommended to NOT use a shroud at all with an electric fan on an aluminum radiator as a result.
The kicker was this month's issue where they did the same kind of dyno runs that are supposed to happen today with Defined Autoworks....they were shooting for a 5 - 10 rwhp gain or at least expecting that much....they gained 19 rwhp just from going from a stock mechanical clutch fan with 7 blades to the electric fan/electric water pump set-up...
Can't wait to see what happens today on the Defined Autoworks chassis dyno......the Truth will overcome...
So it's mounted to the engine and now the fan blades are a good 8" away from the radiator surface and efficiencies are severely compromised. Solution? Fan shroud. Now the fan isn't simply whipping air around but part of a system that lets that fan draw air from the whole radiator surface much more efficiently.
When you have an electric fan that is mounted right on the radiator, a shroud is normally NOT necessary. HPP just finished an exhaustive story done over three issues with a Pontiac wagon owned by Jim Hand that runs mid-11's in Texas in Summer. Tell me that car doesn't want to run hot, as in 220* Fahrenheit, if you gave it a chance. Keeping our big mills cool is always problematic and HPP and Jim decided to see what would happen if they went whole hog and ran an aluminum radiator, 16" SPAL electric fan and a Meziere street/strip HD electric water pump. Jim already had his stock system optimized, so he saw 194 - 210*F ranges at the dragstrip and in around-the-town driving. In the course of tuning up the new cooling system on Texas streets, they found that the PRC aluminum radiator's flat panel "shroud" around the electric fan was negating any benefits at speed that they were expecting from the new set-up. They contacted the manufacturer who suggested cut-outs and their die-cut fiber flaps that would "open" at speed so that more of the radiator would flow air. They saw the drop in temps they were hoping for, so they decided to go one step further and dispense with the shroud altogether. They saw a BIG drop in temperatures across the board and recommended to NOT use a shroud at all with an electric fan on an aluminum radiator as a result.
The kicker was this month's issue where they did the same kind of dyno runs that are supposed to happen today with Defined Autoworks....they were shooting for a 5 - 10 rwhp gain or at least expecting that much....they gained 19 rwhp just from going from a stock mechanical clutch fan with 7 blades to the electric fan/electric water pump set-up...
Can't wait to see what happens today on the Defined Autoworks chassis dyno...
...the Truth will overcome...Just do a base STOCK "NO MOD'S" dyno pull then remove clutch fan install electric fan and redo dyno without adding or taking anything off the engine.
I dont know why all of a sudden people believe if the only mod they do is this they will net more rwhp than an intake and exhuast...Race car's are another story in which i agree with you guy's.
02-03-08, 07:29 AM
#116
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A shroud turns out to be necessary for a mechanical fan because you can't get the fan blades close enough to the radiator to keep the engine cool in that manner. With the engine rocking, driveline shock being transmitted up and down the whole drivetrain assembly, it's just too dicey to have the mechanical fan 1/4" from the radiator fin surfaces where it will be efficient.
So it's mounted to the engine and now the fan blades are a good 8" away from the radiator surface and efficiencies are severely compromised. Solution? Fan shroud. Now the fan isn't simply whipping air around but part of a system that lets that fan draw air from the whole radiator surface much more efficiently.
When you have an electric fan that is mounted right on the radiator, a shroud is normally NOT necessary. HPP just finished an exhaustive story done over three issues with a Pontiac wagon owned by Jim Hand that runs mid-11's in Texas in Summer. Tell me that car doesn't want to run hot, as in 220* Fahrenheit, if you gave it a chance. Keeping our big mills cool is always problematic and HPP and Jim decided to see what would happen if they went whole hog and ran an aluminum radiator, 16" SPAL electric fan and a Meziere street/strip HD electric water pump. Jim already had his stock system optimized, so he saw 194 - 210*F ranges at the dragstrip and in around-the-town driving. In the course of tuning up the new cooling system on Texas streets, they found that the PRC aluminum radiator's flat panel "shroud" around the electric fan was negating any benefits at speed that they were expecting from the new set-up. They contacted the manufacturer who suggested cut-outs and their die-cut fiber flaps that would "open" at speed so that more of the radiator would flow air. They saw the drop in temps they were hoping for, so they decided to go one step further and dispense with the shroud altogether. They saw a BIG drop in temperatures across the board and recommended to NOT use a shroud at all with an electric fan on an aluminum radiator as a result.
The kicker was this month's issue where they did the same kind of dyno runs that are supposed to happen today with Defined Autoworks....they were shooting for a 5 - 10 rwhp gain or at least expecting that much....they gained 19 rwhp just from going from a stock mechanical clutch fan with 7 blades to the electric fan/electric water pump set-up...
Can't wait to see what happens today on the Defined Autoworks chassis dyno......the Truth will overcome...
So it's mounted to the engine and now the fan blades are a good 8" away from the radiator surface and efficiencies are severely compromised. Solution? Fan shroud. Now the fan isn't simply whipping air around but part of a system that lets that fan draw air from the whole radiator surface much more efficiently.
When you have an electric fan that is mounted right on the radiator, a shroud is normally NOT necessary. HPP just finished an exhaustive story done over three issues with a Pontiac wagon owned by Jim Hand that runs mid-11's in Texas in Summer. Tell me that car doesn't want to run hot, as in 220* Fahrenheit, if you gave it a chance. Keeping our big mills cool is always problematic and HPP and Jim decided to see what would happen if they went whole hog and ran an aluminum radiator, 16" SPAL electric fan and a Meziere street/strip HD electric water pump. Jim already had his stock system optimized, so he saw 194 - 210*F ranges at the dragstrip and in around-the-town driving. In the course of tuning up the new cooling system on Texas streets, they found that the PRC aluminum radiator's flat panel "shroud" around the electric fan was negating any benefits at speed that they were expecting from the new set-up. They contacted the manufacturer who suggested cut-outs and their die-cut fiber flaps that would "open" at speed so that more of the radiator would flow air. They saw the drop in temps they were hoping for, so they decided to go one step further and dispense with the shroud altogether. They saw a BIG drop in temperatures across the board and recommended to NOT use a shroud at all with an electric fan on an aluminum radiator as a result.
The kicker was this month's issue where they did the same kind of dyno runs that are supposed to happen today with Defined Autoworks....they were shooting for a 5 - 10 rwhp gain or at least expecting that much....they gained 19 rwhp just from going from a stock mechanical clutch fan with 7 blades to the electric fan/electric water pump set-up...
Can't wait to see what happens today on the Defined Autoworks chassis dyno......the Truth will overcome...
Why do you think mazda designed the shroud the way the did on our cars? Actually, take a look at almost all mechanical fan shrouds, notice how they are aerodynamically shaped? Building a shroud for an electric fan that is of the same design principle of the original mechanical shroud will work better than a flat panel shroud.
Having no shroud at all will always win hands down at speeds since only having a 17" diameter hole with an electric fan's blades, housing and motor will create airflow resistance.
I have had problems with my electric fan mounted directly to the radiator and this was the engine running hot in the summer on hot days and not being able to cool the engine very quickly. If I had the skills I would build a faberglass shroud for my e-fan that is as close to aerodynamically shaped as possible. Infact I was thinking of making cutouts and covering them with a sheet of rubber so they are closed when there is negitive pressure in the shroud and open when there is positive pressure.
Racers and daily drivers are using their cars in completly different ways. A lot of DD's are in citys or congested streets where the fan has to do most of the cooling and a proper shroud would benefit this, at speeds in a DD a proper shroud will allow airflow to flow through the rad to cool the engine and the fan would not be needed. I bet, instead of those people using a flat panel shroud, used a proper shaped shroud, they may not have had as much of an issue.
Shrouds will always make any fan work more efficiently.
Yeah 19rwhp on a car that run's 11 sec quarter's!..Ide say on a stock s4 NA you will net 1-3hp.
Just do a base STOCK "NO MOD'S" dyno pull then remove clutch fan install electric fan and redo dyno without adding or taking anything off the engine.
I dont know why all of a sudden people believe if the only mod they do is this they will net more rwhp than an intake and exhuast...Race car's are another story in which i agree with you guy's.
Just do a base STOCK "NO MOD'S" dyno pull then remove clutch fan install electric fan and redo dyno without adding or taking anything off the engine.
I dont know why all of a sudden people believe if the only mod they do is this they will net more rwhp than an intake and exhuast...Race car's are another story in which i agree with you guy's.
Last edited by RotaMan99; 02-03-08 at 07:36 AM.
02-04-08, 10:18 AM
#120
Sweet ... I can't wait for results neither. The reason that I'm liking this so much is because if it all works out, me removing my fan and doing ITB's with a better ignition system could mean that I can actually hit 170ish whp with my SP 12a
... I can't wait for results neither. The reason that I'm liking this so much is because if it all works out, me removing my fan and doing ITB's with a better ignition system could mean that I can actually hit 170ish whp with my SP 12a
02-04-08, 01:54 PM
#121
Bongolio
02-05-08, 12:34 AM
#124
nice ... and its looks like its from a fairly stock setup too considering HP numbers. With a more breathing engine that wouldn't let its HP curve fall off so soon, I can see even greater results as it seems like the higher the engine revs the greater the HP difference.
... and its looks like its from a fairly stock setup too considering HP numbers. With a more breathing engine that wouldn't let its HP curve fall off so soon, I can see even greater results as it seems like the higher the engine revs the greater the HP difference.