GtoRx7

iTrader: (5)

exactly. This is the only number that truly matters. How much power is there. When chevy dyno'd the corvette engine and rated it at 505hp, I'm sure they wont sit there and explain exactly how they reached that power to the general public, as it doesn't matter. It makes 505hp, thats all you need to know, haha.

rotarygod

iTrader: (1)

You need to go study up on what the voltage regulator does and around what engine rpm you are typically at when it starts working. What you state would be true if alternator output were solely based on load demand. However it isn't. An alternator makes way too much power the faster it spins so we regulate this. From a parasitic horsepower standpoint, an electric fan is far more efficient. It's not to say that an added electical load on the system when it kicks on is necessarily a good thing. It's just to say that what you think happens, quite frankly doesn't.

RotaMan99

You think im new to this? Of course the alternator varies its output it would be hitting 16+v. No matter what the output of the alternator is, the electric fan will always put a load on it when it turns on and this load is way more than the clutch fan would ever do if you were at idle or slow cruise. The alternator is also not 100% efficient so you have to take the inefficiency into effect. If you read my writeup that I posted you can see I talk about this.

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

you know ... i'm not really sure why i didn't see all of this coming, but i guess that just makes me more retarded than some of you are being.

the guy took time out of his day to post his personal findings and a ****-storm thus ensues? un-*******-believable!!! on the forum where every tom, dick, harry and numb-nuts yells, "well, where's the dyno sheet?" general info is shared WITH dyno sheets to boot and it's still not good enough.

i suppose i could see where some of the skepticism would have a place if he was preaching his findings as gospel or a "guaranteed" power increase, but he merely posted what he found and left it there for others to add what they have found. so far, unless i missed something, Robert (680RWHP12A) was the only person to add anything in 3 pages ... what the ****???

come on people. if you believe it, believe it. if you don't, don't. however, why is it necessary to insult him?

rotarygod

iTrader: (1)

I do believe him. An electric fan does free up horsepower. That's long been proven. Nothing he posted is out of the ordinary.

rotarygod

iTrader: (1)

I did read it. It's a good generalization with holes in it.
I'm curious, have you considered how much weight the fan adds to the front of the engine? Have you considered how weight affects rotating inertia? I suppose you're one of the people that also believes that an electric water pump doesn't free up any power for the same reason.

I'm not sure how long you've been into rotaries and could really care less but you still need to learn about alternators, how they work, and what draw they have mechanically on an engine in relation to regulated voltage. Also look up how much faster than the initial unloaded regulation point each additional required amp needs the alternator to spin to compensate.

You do realize that not only can you set up an electric fan to kick on or off with temperature, but that you can also set it up to not kick in above a certain speed. No parasitic load at all above a certain speed other than drag which always exists. This isn't hard to do and only requires a speed sensor to accomplish this. Above a certain speed the fan (all of them) does nothing useful. Above a certain speed, the fan spinning is a restriction. This is why a mechanical fan that has a locked clutch that keeps the fan engaged will cause an engine to overheat at high speeds.

Keep this in mind. If you made everything electric and in fact did increase the load on the alternator by the same parasitic amount as you claim it does, you couldn't spin the alternator with the belt it has. It would perpetually slip and you couldn't get it tight enough. Fortunately the voltage regulator and the way an alternator works prove this not to be true.

You may not believe me personally but do your homework and learn about it from somewhere so you don't pass on false information.

RotaMan99

I have mentioned about the weight of the fan assembly. Obveously you have not read the entire writeup. I don't know if the water pump free's up any hp which is why I say nothing about it.

Been around rotaries for 5 years. Being around around rotaries means nothing since our alternator could fit other vehicals as well. The amount of power taken by the e-fan is less the 1hp, I already know this. While at idle or light cruise with the clutch fan, the fan takes less then the e-fan. I have already mentioned the clutch fan can take more hp than the e-fan in the writeup.

You think there is holes, than fill em in instead of arguing.

You can have the fan kick on in anything under 5 gear as well, or have it only kick on in neatral (which is usless) or have it kick on when your radio kicks on, when your a/c kicks on or when your oil pressure gets to 100psi. You just need the right switch to do so. Its pointless to have the fan designed to NOT kick on at high speeds. Why go through all the extra hassel of installing a switch to disable it at a certain speed? Above certain speeds the fan should never kick on anyways because the air moving through the radiator will (should) keep the engine temp below the turn on point. You could use the speed signal from our speedometer and use a simple voltage switch on that signal to deactivate the fan as well. Did you know that?

Im going to pretend you didn't post this. You obveously think that I am saying the e-fan takes up HUGE amounts of power.

1983GSP

proof is in the dyno sheets. i believe him. if yall like drama go watch general hospital.

ultimatejay

iTrader: (1)

Those are all good mods and I too believe the dyno sheets. I also just watched an episode of Horsepower TV and they dynoed a V8 with regular oil and then one with Royal purple and picked up an additional I think it was like 6-8 horsepower. Remember you may not feel the diff. with that much horsepower but everything adds up.

anewconvert

iTrader: (1)

we really need the beating a dead horse smilie for this thread.



BC

dj55b

iTrader: (2)

Rotaman - Have you ever dynoed a car with and without? There are theories, than there are facts. Where do you fall?

mar3

iTrader: (8)

This is what I'm waiting for...same day dyno test results...I can see 8 - 12rwhp from V8's, Car Craft has already established that with even higher numbers for your typical hi-po V8 with same day dyno testing going from stock fan with clutch, fixed fan with fixed blade, fixed fan with flex blades to E-fan, gaining the most rwhp with the E-fan. What the 'exact' number for a rotary would be with a second, affirming dyno run would be great. If you can do this with a stock FB fan and clutch, I can't see that fan taking up too much energy...

Not for the faint of heart....from Ray Green


rwhp is all that matters....that's what you're trying to get to stick. It'd be nice to see a number over 6 HP.

full disclosure--->I'm already running a Derale 17" E-fan.

KillaKitiie

,

flipstar

iTrader: (14)

Jesus Christ!



Simple physis states that INSTALLING AN E-FAN WILL NOT INCREASE YOUR PEAK HP OR RWHP

You cannot make energy from nothing. Your engine spins your clutch fan. For arguments sake, it uses 10 watts. Your engine spins your alternator. IT ALSO USES 10 WATTS for the same amount of cooling. ----> AKA: You CAN NOT gain peak hp with an E-FAN! (unless your car has no alternator charging your battery...)

I say peak hp because what happens inbetween is another story. The resistance reduction on the engine from taking off the clutch fan will actually cause it to accelerate faster, but faster acceleration does not mean HP increase.

FORCE = MASS X ACCELERATION

Your engine produces a force equal to X, REGARDLESS of your fan. Take off the clutch fan and you reduce the MASS. To keep the equation in balance, aka when FORCE is still equal to X, ACCELERATION must increase.

So there it is.







Now as an afterthought for those who really want to get technical and into an exaplaination as to why a dyno may show increased hp...

As far as I know, an altenator has different 'levels' of duty, that is, it does not have a continuous range of possible current generation rates (controlled by ecu, voltage regulators).
So if your e-fan draws a low enoough current from the electrical system so as to not step the alernator up to the next level of duty, you will in fact enjoy an increase in RWHP, however, this means that your battery is draining, and at some point will need to be recharged by the alternator, thereby reducing this gain in RWHP to the normal clutch fan level (or more, actually). So on somedays you might dyno higher, some days you might dyno lower, based on this argument.

ultimatejay

iTrader: (1)

I dont' agree with you on this. If the fan clutch is locked or you are running a fixed fan then there is a lot of resistance-fan blades moving the air-and it is taking horsepower from the engine to do this. It's just like turning on your A/C. When the compressor clutch engages it is causing a load on the engine thus taking away horsepower. Why do you think your idle drops when the A/c comes on. And have you ever seen a pro drag racer using a f-ing fan clutch? Why not? Because they rob horsepower. Hello.

mar3

iTrader: (8)

RWHP is not straight engine HP, simple as that...all along, it has been made abundantly CLEAR that the parties to this 'debate' understand that...RWHP is all that matters to performance and is separate from engine HP...a 550 HP engine with a burned out clutch will register 0 RWHP on a dyno...any testing of components is pointless. An engine and drivetrain combo that is in good running order can establish a good baseline RWHP for that combo. Any component that raises that number can obviously increase RWHP even if it doesn't raise the actual HP of the engine at the crank...two separate things. I can hardly wait for that dyno run.

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

i think you're preaching to the choir mar3. for those of us that understand that, we're waiting for the bullshit to end and have more legitimate contributions made to this thread. however, those that don't simply want to argue us all into oblivion. be careful before you hear that a good clutch is useless to the measurement of RWHP.

RacerJason

iTrader: (5)

What a pissing thread, clean it up kids... *yawn*

mar3

iTrader: (8)

Another nice thing about the E-fan conversion I had forgotten, but has nothing to do with rwhp, fwhp, awhp or crank hp, is that the car sure warms up a lot quicker for the heater during the cold season.

I know what you're saying D1, but when a guy takes Jesus name in vain to make an untrue statement...well, you gotta do something and the Spanish Inquisition is no longer a legal option...

SPiN Racing

Sooo lets see.

Take a 1983 Camaro... Put it on the CHASSIS Dyno.
Dyno It.

It makes 215HP on the Chassis Dyno. (Ok maybe 100 but run with it)

Now take off the 15 inch steel wheels, and replace them with...Super Swampers!!!! ON 28" Diameter Rims!!!

Now.. Dyno that bad boy before you bury it in the swamp.

It makes 75HP to the wheels!?!?!?!? WHY YOU SAY???

Well the ENGINE is still making the same HP.. but it is not making it to the Dyno/Road because it is being used to spin the larger diameter tires.

Its like MOI with Clutches and flywheels.
You hae a 28LB flywheel of stock diameter, that takes a given amount of HP to spin.
You change that flywheel to a button flywheel with a 5.5 inch clutch, and your MOI is a TON less.

If you RELLY wanna read something interesting.. look up the amount of HP it takes to spin a supercharger on a Top Fuel engine. IIRC its something in the area of 200-300 HP Just to spin the thing. (Granted thats a multi thousand HP engine)

Read this for some interesting information about Moment of Inertia in clutches. http://redhat3.admarkonline.com/~rcl...i_weight.phtml

flipstar

iTrader: (14)

Try reading my post before making redundant arguments. I already proved what you said was true (F=ma.....).

My argument was that the energy to power an e-fan comes from somewhere, as opposed to nowhere, which is what most people seem to be thinking.

So remember, before you try and debate something, understand what you are trying to debate.

mar3

iTrader: (8)

Sooo lets see.

Take a 1983 Camaro... Put it on the CHASSIS Dyno.
Dyno It.

It makes 215HP on the Chassis Dyno. (Ok maybe 100 but run with it)

It makes 215 rwhp.

Trjackson

Update. The customer will be dynoing February 2nd(depending on weather). The customer was suppose to dyno this weekend, however due to the shity weather ohio is about to take, he cancelled. We will have the results and vid shortly after the dyno.

I am eagerly awaiting this day.

Jackson

Latin270

Alright fellas! this e-fan thing is getting old. Any other ideas to gain some HP? Ignition? DLFIS <---- lol.... you know what I mean!

KillaKitiie

Pretty much everything you CAN do to a NA to make it more power has already been stated here and in other posts throughout the years...I wonder if we could merge the beefy Na thread into here!